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Scott Stevens vs Chris Pronger

View Poll Results: Better Player
Scott Stevens 64 37.43%
Chris Pronger 107 62.57%
Voters: 171. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-19-2012, 06:53 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
TIL Paul Kariya's chest is above his head.



The Lindros hit was clean shoulder hit. But a lot of those hits on that video were with the elbow as the primary point of contact. Sometimes it was tucked it, sometimes it was out.



On #9 (Adams), he comes in leading with the elbow, and drops it after the hit; it's actually rather noticeable because most of his hits see his arms going UP after contact and not down. On #7, his elbow was up and out noticeably before contact with King. #5 Stevens clearly sticks his elbow out to nab Langkow. #2... it was a late blindside hit where he pasted Kariya; his elbow was tucked but was the primary point of contact against Kariya's head. That hit happens in today's NHL and Stevens is missing a lot of games.

Also noticeable; how many of those hits did Stevens jump into? Most of them.
I really don't think you know what an elbow is. Every single one of those hits are shoulder to chest. Even the announcers in half of those clips state, "That's just a good clean check." As I said earlier, the Kariya one is the only hit I can see a problem with.

As far as Stevens being suspended in todays game...someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Shannahan stated that Stevens would not have been suspended for those hits.

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11-19-2012, 07:09 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Nocashstyle View Post
I really don't think you know what an elbow is. Every single one of those hits are shoulder to chest. Even the announcers in half of those clips state, "That's just a good clean check." As I said earlier, the Kariya one is the only hit I can see a problem with.

As far as Stevens being suspended in todays game...someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Shannahan stated that Stevens would not have been suspended for those hits.
1) It's not a good clean check if you're in the air before you hit the guy. So don't mind me if I push aside the "oh yeah, good old time hockey, blah blah" announcing. And I'm not trying to bash any specific announcers; every announcer and especially every player-turned-announcer is quick to note "oh yeah, nothing wrong with that hit." if it was thrown by "their guys" and there isn't a penalty coming. Regardless of what the hit looked like.

2) You must have problems in anatomy class if you think those were shoulder-to-chest hits. As I said earlier, some were clear elbows, some were hits where the elbow was the point of contact but it was tucked, some were clean. The fact that you think Stevens railroading Kariya practically from behind, throwing a flying elbow at Kris King, or flinging an elbow out to nab Langkow were all clean shoulder-to-chest hits is absolutely stunning.

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11-19-2012, 07:50 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
1) It's not a good clean check if you're in the air before you hit the guy. So don't mind me if I push aside the "oh yeah, good old time hockey, blah blah" announcing. And I'm not trying to bash any specific announcers; every announcer and especially every player-turned-announcer is quick to note "oh yeah, nothing wrong with that hit." if it was thrown by "their guys" and there isn't a penalty coming. Regardless of what the hit looked like.

2) You must have problems in anatomy class if you think those were shoulder-to-chest hits. As I said earlier, some were clear elbows, some were hits where the elbow was the point of contact but it was tucked, some were clean. The fact that you think Stevens railroading Kariya practically from behind, throwing a flying elbow at Kris King, or flinging an elbow out to nab Langkow were all clean shoulder-to-chest hits is absolutely stunning.
1.) There is only air time at the point of contact. When two masses collide head on, that's what happens. He does not leave his feet before any of those hits

2.) Not one of the announcers in that video were Devils announcers. So there goes that claim. Almost al of those hits were in the playoffs, so those were national broadcasters.

3.) You must be watching a different video if you think those hits are not shoulder to chest. Google "shoulder" and "elbow" just to make sure you know the difference. Then YouTube "Matt Cooke elbow on McDonagh"...that is an elbow. Again...if Stevens consistently threw elbows, please explain why he only received FOUR elbowing penalties in 22 seasons? Unless there was some massive conspiracy that allowed only Stevens to throw elbows, the only explanation for his lack of elbowing penalties is: he didn't throw many elbows.

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11-19-2012, 07:59 PM
  #79
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He isn't jumping into the hits. His skates leave the ice surface after contact is made, because of the momentum changes. How people do not understand this is beyond me, you have to know nothing about basic physics and also nothing about open ice hits.

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11-19-2012, 08:37 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
1) It's not a good clean check if you're in the air before you hit the guy. So don't mind me if I push aside the "oh yeah, good old time hockey, blah blah" announcing. And I'm not trying to bash any specific announcers; every announcer and especially every player-turned-announcer is quick to note "oh yeah, nothing wrong with that hit." if it was thrown by "their guys" and there isn't a penalty coming. Regardless of what the hit looked like.

2) You must have problems in anatomy class if you think those were shoulder-to-chest hits. As I said earlier, some were clear elbows, some were hits where the elbow was the point of contact but it was tucked, some were clean. The fact that you think Stevens railroading Kariya practically from behind, throwing a flying elbow at Kris King, or flinging an elbow out to nab Langkow were all clean shoulder-to-chest hits is absolutely stunning.
Dude don't even bother arguing it, you are dead on seeing exactly what I do. People are going to continue to defend it and bring up that he only ever got 4 elbowing penalties ever and use that as some bogus excuse for why he never elbowed someone, or use the "announcer calls it a clean hit" straw man and not actually look at what they are talking about. They will continue to use the excuse that when you collide with someone in hockey you leave your feet which is true. But what they won't say or explain is how when he first makes contact the elbow of a 6'2 Defensemen is hitting the head of a 6'4 forward. Tucked or untucked its the same thing especially when he "follows through".

The only reason I brought it up was because someone tried to claim Pronger was somehow more dirty then Stevens.

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Old
11-19-2012, 09:06 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Saugus View Post
He isn't jumping into the hits. His skates leave the ice surface after contact is made, because of the momentum changes. How people do not understand this is beyond me, you have to know nothing about basic physics and also nothing about open ice hits.
In many of the hits, his skate are already halfway off the ice before contact. On the Kozlov and Bassen hits in particular he's actually fully airborne before contact.

And it's not "basic physics" as you put it. A properly thrown bodycheck should be the hitter using their legs to power themselves sideways into their opponent while simultaneously bracing against the collision. The recipient of the hit therefore suffers most of the "damage", as they aren't in a braced position.

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11-20-2012, 01:17 AM
  #82
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Pronger's last 4 seasons full seasons he had an average QOC Corsi of 0.62 and Ozone start of 52.03%. That is pretty damn easy minutes for a guy who is suppose to be at Stevens peak defensively. Stevens went out against the top players his entire career and out almost every defensive zone faceoff. Had Sabremetrics been introduced when he joined the Devils his career numbers would be off the charts.

Pronger's defensive peak is greatly overrated while his offensive peak maybe underrated during the dead puck era. Does that mean Pronger was a poor defensive defensmen? No, he is still top 10 of his era but Stevens was "the" shutdown defensmen of the 90's and early 00's.


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Old
11-20-2012, 01:20 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
In many of the hits, his skate are already halfway off the ice before contact. On the Kozlov and Bassen hits in particular he's actually fully airborne before contact.

And it's not "basic physics" as you put it. A properly thrown bodycheck should be the hitter using their legs to power themselves sideways into their opponent while simultaneously bracing against the collision. The recipient of the hit therefore suffers most of the "damage", as they aren't in a braced position.
You don't understand how legs work when throwing a hit. When you use your legs for power you drive up and out. You don't sway sideways in hits, that would give you the hitting ability of David Clarkson. Bracing is what weak hitters do. Powerful hitters hit through the opponent.

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11-20-2012, 01:39 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Ceremony View Post
I take Pronger. He had better offense and his 06 playoffs is the best playoffs I've ever seen by a non-goalie.
Lemieux 90-91 and 91-92

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Old
11-20-2012, 02:46 AM
  #85
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Stevens' Conn Smythe is being used a little too much in support of him over Pronger. Pronger easily would have won the Smythe if Edmonton or Philly had pulled out their series', while Stevens' Smythe came on a stacked team (not saying he didn't deserve it).

Look, I really don't think there's a wrong answer here. Both were dominating physical players, albeit in different ways.

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11-20-2012, 07:30 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
He also spent the majority of his career in the DPE where you could grab a player from behind and drag him down on a breakaway and still not get a penalty. His elbows were always high he was just never called. I'm not going to get into an arguement about it because 1 I'm obviously biased because I'm a flyers fan, and 2 nothing you say can convince me that while watching a top 10 video of Stevens hits the majority of them are not elbows.
You seem to ignore the fact that other people were still getting elbowing penalties at the time. How convenient. lol Elbowing isn't something made up during the 05 lockout.

Nothing I say can convince you? How about use your ****ing eyes?

What a terrible way to argue a point. LALALALA NOT LISTENING LALALALA

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11-20-2012, 07:46 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
But what they won't say or explain is how when he first makes contact the elbow of a 6'2 Defensemen is hitting the head of a 6'4 forward. Tucked or untucked its the same thing especially when he "follows through".
Tucked or untucked absolutely makes a difference, you're not considering anatomy. If the elbow is tucked, the point of the elbow does not make first contact, the softer upper arm or shoulder does. A follow through after that causes the opponent to slide down the arm and fall away, and the point of the elbow is never driven into the opponent with force.

This contrasts with what happens if the elbow is untucked and the hitter leads with the elbow. Then the point of the elbow makes first contact, and any follow through dangerously drives the bony point of the elbow into a vulnerable part of the opponent. Watch the videos, that isn't what Stevens does.

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11-20-2012, 04:05 PM
  #88
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Voted Pronger, close though.

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11-21-2012, 07:08 PM
  #89
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Voted Pronger. Look at the Oilers 2006 roster and the playoffs that he had. They came within one game of winning the cup after losing their starting goal in the finals. The most important player no that team was Pronger. He was simply dominant that season.

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11-21-2012, 08:42 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
You don't understand how legs work when throwing a hit. When you use your legs for power you drive up and out. You don't sway sideways in hits, that would give you the hitting ability of David Clarkson. Bracing is what weak hitters do. Powerful hitters hit through the opponent.
Vladimir Konstantinov was a powerful hitter. He didn't need to fly into his opponent to hit powerfully. And he generally was able to remain on the ice and standing after most of his hits.

The point of a hit is to separate your opponent from the puck, not from his skull. Removing your own stability is *get this* A BAD IDEA. A good hit is one that is delivered with power, but in such a manner that you yourself are not incapacitated by recovery from the hit. Many highlight reels of "great hits" show the hitter flying off the ice, landing on his butt/side/whatever, and taking just as long to get up. How is that a great hit? Exciting, maybe, but it could have just created a scoring chance for the opposition that wasn't there before. But if that same hitter stays up and recovers the puck, now it's basically a couple seconds of PP. That's significant.

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11-21-2012, 09:47 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Vladimir Konstantinov was a powerful hitter. He didn't need to fly into his opponent to hit powerfully. And he generally was able to remain on the ice and standing after most of his hits.

The point of a hit is to separate your opponent from the puck, not from his skull. Removing your own stability is *get this* A BAD IDEA. A good hit is one that is delivered with power, but in such a manner that you yourself are not incapacitated by recovery from the hit. Many highlight reels of "great hits" show the hitter flying off the ice, landing on his butt/side/whatever, and taking just as long to get up. How is that a great hit? Exciting, maybe, but it could have just created a scoring chance for the opposition that wasn't there before. But if that same hitter stays up and recovers the puck, now it's basically a couple seconds of PP. That's significant.
The point of hitting a player is to eliminate him from the puck and discourage him from ever crossing your path again. Stevens did his job so well NJ could funnel the play to the right. Stevens was the best hitter of his era and arguably of all time. He was also the most intiminating shutdown defensmen of his era. I find it funny you are lecturing him how to hit and play defense.

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11-21-2012, 10:50 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
The point of hitting a player is to eliminate him from the puck and discourage him from ever crossing your path again. Stevens did his job so well NJ could funnel the play to the right. Stevens was the best hitter of his era and arguably of all time. He was also the most intiminating shutdown defensmen of his era. I find it funny you are lecturing him how to hit and play defense.
I'm not lecturing Scott Stevens on how to hit. He's not here posting. I'm telling you how a hit is supposed to be performed in order to not potentially screw your teammates over. And as for "funneling" as you put it... Chris Pronger can make the same claim. But then again, so can Nicklas Lidstrom. So what here is the driving factor behind that funnel? Lidstrom isn't a bruiser, but he's arguably the most defensively sound. Could it be that players don't want to carry the puck near a guy who will take it from them?

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11-21-2012, 11:01 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I'm not lecturing Scott Stevens on how to hit. He's not here posting. I'm telling you how a hit is supposed to be performed in order to not potentially screw your teammates over. And as for "funneling" as you put it... Chris Pronger can make the same claim. But then again, so can Nicklas Lidstrom. So what here is the driving factor behind that funnel? Lidstrom isn't a bruiser, but he's arguably the most defensively sound. Could it be that players don't want to carry the puck near a guy who will take it from them?
In Stevens case they were scared to cross his blueline and go in his corner, many players have said this over the years.

You are telling me how to hit? I'm pretty sure I have played enough hockey at a fairly high level to know how to hit. I also have watched enough hockey to know Stevens did not screw his teammates over at all. It's a bloody shame that so many have tried to tarnish the reputation of Stevens as a player over the years. All this guy did was win. Were you a personal friend of Slava Kozlov or something?

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11-22-2012, 12:27 AM
  #94
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I'm pretty sure even Kozlov called that hit clean. He had his head down.

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11-22-2012, 01:44 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Vladimir Konstantinov was a powerful hitter. He didn't need to fly into his opponent to hit powerfully. And he generally was able to remain on the ice and standing after most of his hits.

The point of a hit is to separate your opponent from the puck, not from his skull. Removing your own stability is *get this* A BAD IDEA. A good hit is one that is delivered with power, but in such a manner that you yourself are not incapacitated by recovery from the hit. Many highlight reels of "great hits" show the hitter flying off the ice, landing on his butt/side/whatever, and taking just as long to get up. How is that a great hit? Exciting, maybe, but it could have just created a scoring chance for the opposition that wasn't there before. But if that same hitter stays up and recovers the puck, now it's basically a couple seconds of PP. That's significant.
Questioning Stevens effectiveness to play defence...
To hurt your opponent is authorized in hockey and the Devils took a great advantage of Stevens brutality.

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11-22-2012, 01:59 AM
  #96
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the Devils won 3 Cups with Stevens. He is a Hall of Famer, he has his number retired, and he is considered a legendary Devils captain by which all future captains are measured. That is a great legacy to have.
I agree with everything you said and I LOVE Stevens it pains me that he ended up on the Devils. But you put Pronger on those Devil teams and he takes them to another level

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11-22-2012, 09:16 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
I agree with everything you said and I LOVE Stevens it pains me that he ended up on the Devils. But you put Pronger on those Devil teams and he takes them to another level
I think it's impossible to say if the Devils would have been more or less successful with Pronger in place of Stevens. We have no way of testing it, all we have is your opinion saying the Devils would be improved, and mine saying they wouldn't.

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11-22-2012, 09:48 AM
  #98
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I agree with everything you said and I LOVE Stevens it pains me that he ended up on the Devils. But you put Pronger on those Devil teams and he takes them to another level

The 1995-2003 Devils represent an NHL era by themselves. Under Stevens' captaincy Devils have been one of the most dominant defensive team in the history of the league. Scott Stevens was the heart and soul of New Jersey. You cannot separate Devils' success from their leader.

Scott Stevens is an icon of a style of play, an era and of a franchise. Keep Pronger away from the Devils please.

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