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Nazem Kadri reports to camp in 'Unacceptable' shape

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11-21-2012, 05:15 PM
  #601
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
If you add up the totals, he was saying half hate him period(and would obviously prefer him to B. Schenn), while the other half also like him, but still prefer Schenn to him.
This is what I said.

You'll have the stubborn Leafs fans who will die by Kadri's performance. I rather ship him (1) to Vanc and grab Luongo, (2) start contending and, (3) show Kessel why he needs to resign here.

I might regret it but Luongo makes us an immediate playoff team and a lot of the current players are hitting their prime (e.g. Phaneuf, Grabo, Kulemin, Lupul) and we need to have something to show for this.

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11-21-2012, 05:19 PM
  #602
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Originally Posted by SaintTavares View Post
Sure, lets look at the draft:
Tavares - nuff said
Hedman - pretty solid defensemen, eats up alot of ice time
Duchene - had two really strong years to start off, injuries hurt him last year
Kane - 30 goal scorer in the league
Schenn - put up serious numbers everywhere he went, played decent enough in his first year as a pro
OEL - had a nice year last in his first full season

And now we come to Kadri. The majority of the players picked after him, saved for a handful, havent done anything special in the league. So he can pretty much be considered the cutoff for someone who still has something to prove or someone who is established. He can easily go either way, either being a solid player, or someone who has the talent but cant put "it" together. So while him winning one player of the week award is good, it doesnt automatically make him back on the right track.
Pretty much agree with everything you've said(other than the bolded), not too sure if you were trying to prove me wrong, or if you were agreeing with me.

1st bolded: Kadri has been on par statistics wise with B. Schenn pretty well in all leagues. Excluding earlier junior years, and the NHL playoffs last year(which you can't hold against Nazem) There pretty even in PPG in the NHL. Schenn has like 3 more points this year in the AHL. I'm not saying Kadri is better than Schenn, because i'd take Schenn, ten times out of ten over Kadri, and he also has other components to his game that Kadri does not. But to say, Schenn has "put up serious numbers everywhere he went, played decent enough in his first year as a pro" and Kadri has not is not fair.

2nd bolded: Kadri is PPG in the AHL while their is no season in the NHL. Saying he isn't on track isn't fair either, but saying he is exceeding expectations is also wrong. I firmly believe if the season started in October, Nazem would've secured a spot in the top nine somewhere on the leafs. I believe he is ready for the big show, but who knows what the leafs brass are thinking. He's only 21, lots of time for him to make the NHL.
Nothing wrong with ripening prospects in the NHL.


Last edited by Kelly: 11-21-2012 at 05:26 PM.
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11-21-2012, 05:25 PM
  #603
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Originally Posted by bzer View Post
This is what I said.

You'll have the stubborn Leafs fans who will die by Kadri's performance. I rather ship him (1) to Vanc and grab Luongo, (2) start contending and, (3) show Kessel why he needs to resign here.

I might regret it but Luongo makes us an immediate playoff team and a lot of the current players are hitting their prime (e.g. Phaneuf, Grabo, Kulemin, Lupul) and we need to have something to show for this.
Am I the only one that doesn't understand how this is possible? It's not like the Leafs have been knocking on the doorstep lately, the last time they finished outside of bottom 10 was 06-07. So how does one goalie who's confidence is completely broken right now going to make a non-playoff team a playoff team under even more media and criticism than he had in Vancouver?

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11-21-2012, 05:27 PM
  #604
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Originally Posted by stlblues9 View Post
Am I the only one that doesn't understand how this is possible? It's not like the Leafs have been knocking on the doorstep lately, the last time they finished outside of bottom 10 was 06-07. So how does one goalie who's confidence is completely broken right now going to make a non-playoff team a playoff team under even more media and criticism than he had in Vancouver?
Not knocking on the doorstep? Are you kidding me? For the past two years, we have toyed with the idea of a playoff team and then we collapse with a losing streak and end up in the bottom-10 of the league.

The D has no confidence playing behind the current goalies. And, have you seen our GA every year? Luongo is a proven goalie. (Oh Christ, did a Leafs fan just say that? Yes.)

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11-21-2012, 05:32 PM
  #605
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Kadri's a work in progress. We shall have to see.

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11-21-2012, 05:33 PM
  #606
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Originally Posted by bzer View Post
Not knocking on the doorstep? Are you kidding me? For the past two years, we have toyed with the idea of a playoff team and then we collapse with a losing streak and end up in the bottom-10 of the league.

The D has no confidence playing behind the current goalies. And, have you seen our GA every year? Luongo is a proven goalie. (Oh Christ, did a Leafs fan just say that? Yes.)
It's pretty much the same slide the Leafs go on every single year. Whether they hit their in the beginning, middle or end, they're consistently going through that slide and consistently finishing bottom 10 of the league. Luongo is a proven goalie that has just been replaced by his successor. His confidence, like I already said, is at an all-time low. Going to a worse team with a lot of pressure in a heavily scrutinized market is not going to make him feel better about himself.

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11-21-2012, 05:36 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by stlblues9 View Post
It's pretty much the same slide the Leafs go on every single year. Whether they hit their in the beginning, middle or end, they're consistently going through that slide and consistently finishing bottom 10 of the league. Luongo is a proven goalie that has just been replaced by his successor. His confidence, like I already said, is at an all-time low. Going to a worse team with a lot of pressure in a heavily scrutinized market is not going to make him feel better about himself.
Kadri doesnt get you a return of Luongo to boot

Gillis was asking for Bjugstad who is in a whole different ballpark than Kadri

not entirely gonna buy the fact that Luongo makes the Leafs a playoff team either, not while Bozak is your number one center

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11-21-2012, 05:37 PM
  #608
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Pretty much agree with everything you've said(other than the bolded), not too sure if you were trying to prove me wrong, or if you were agreeing with me.

1st bolded: Kadri has been on par statistics wise with B. Schenn pretty well in all leagues. Excluding earlier junior years, and the NHL playoffs last year(which you can't hold against Nazem) There pretty even in PPG in the NHL. Schenn has like 3 more points this year in the AHL. I'm not saying Kadri is better than Schenn, because i'd take Schenn, ten times out of ten over Kadri, and he also has other components to his game that Kadri does not. But to say, Schenn has "put up serious numbers everywhere he went, played decent enough in his first year as a pro" and Kadri has not is not fair.

2nd bolded: Kadri is PPG in the AHL while their is no season in the NHL. Saying he isn't on track isn't fair either, but saying he is exceeding expectations is also wrong. I firmly believe if the season started in October, Nazem would've secured a spot in the top nine somewhere on the leafs. I believe he is ready for the big show, but who knows what the leafs brass are thinking. He's only 21, lots of time for him to make the NHL.
Nothing wrong with ripening prospects in the NHL.
Aside from the NHL, the only thing you can really compare them with them is juniors, cause Kadri has played way more games in the A then Schenn and Schenn has played twice as many World Junior games. But Schenn has outscored Kadri by over 50 points in about twenty less games. Plus, Schenn had a pretty decent playoff run last year. I'm not saying that Schenn is light years ahead of Kadri, but like you even say, the general consensus is that Schenn is the better prospect.

Regarding the second point, i stated that i think Kadri has the skill. And no, im not the biggest buds fan, but i read the stuff on the site about the coaches criticism of Kadri. He has the skills to play, but he just has to be responsible enough to put it all together. That is, of course, is only if what we believe Burke and others are saying is true.

I think he's nowhere near being a bust. Lets say, WORST case scenario he doesn't play in the league until he's 24, and has a ten year career putting up around 50 points a year, thats a pretty good career. But i do believe he has a long way to go to be a top three guy, which is the point i was trying to make before, is the type of player he should be considering his draft position and year. Just my opinion.

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11-21-2012, 05:41 PM
  #609
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Originally Posted by wKetch22 View Post
Kadri doesnt get you a return of Luongo to boot

Gillis was asking for Bjugstad who is in a whole different ballpark than Kadri

not entirely gonna buy the fact that Luongo makes the Leafs a playoff team either, not while Bozak is your number one center
Luongo to Leafs is a whole different topic that I am not going to tiptoe over. There's a long topic in Trades if you want to talk about that but in no way am I suggesting a Kadri for Luongo deal.

The point is Luongo would make us a very good team because our offense is decent. Bozak is not #1 but he has chemistry with Kessel and Lupul and is very versatile in other roles. Burke will obviously find a solution to this but Luongo instantly gives the Leafs a greater chance to be a playoff team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stlblues9 View Post
It's pretty much the same slide the Leafs go on every single year. Whether they hit their in the beginning, middle or end, they're consistently going through that slide and consistently finishing bottom 10 of the league. Luongo is a proven goalie that has just been replaced by his successor. His confidence, like I already said, is at an all-time low. Going to a worse team with a lot of pressure in a heavily scrutinized market is not going to make him feel better about himself.
I am not sure what you are trying to get to about the 'every single year' and 'slide' and 'finishing bottom 10'. I obviously agree with the scrutinized market in Toronto but my point is that we are a fringe playoff team at best right now and Luongo may mitigate any losing slide and provide the extra push for the playoffs.

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11-21-2012, 05:47 PM
  #610
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Question for people who have watched Kadri a lot, where do you think his best fit at the NHL level would be, LW, C, or RW?
Quoted in case it got passed over in the ensuing discussion. I'm genuinely curious as to what kind of role people see him playing at the NHL level.

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11-21-2012, 05:55 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by bzer View Post
Luongo to Leafs is a whole different topic that I am not going to tiptoe over. There's a long topic in Trades if you want to talk about that but in no way am I suggesting a Kadri for Luongo deal.

The point is Luongo would make us a very good team because our offense is decent. Bozak is not #1 but he has chemistry with Kessel and Lupul and is very versatile in other roles. Burke will obviously find a solution to this but Luongo instantly gives the Leafs a greater chance to be a playoff team.



I am not sure what you are trying to get to about the 'every single year' and 'slide' and 'finishing bottom 10'. I obviously agree with the scrutinized market in Toronto but my point is that we are a fringe playoff team at best right now and Luongo may mitigate any losing slide and provide the extra push for the playoffs.
He might help you get to the playoffs... he can do that.. but then what? More pain... ask the Canucks fans!

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11-21-2012, 05:57 PM
  #612
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Originally Posted by SaintTavares View Post
Aside from the NHL, the only thing you can really compare them with them is juniors, cause Kadri has played way more games in the A then Schenn and Schenn has played twice as many World Junior games. But Schenn has outscored Kadri by over 50 points in about twenty less games. Plus, Schenn had a pretty decent playoff run last year. I'm not saying that Schenn is light years ahead of Kadri, but like you even say, the general consensus is that Schenn is the better prospect.

Regarding the second point, i stated that i think Kadri has the skill. And no, im not the biggest buds fan, but i read the stuff on the site about the coaches criticism of Kadri. He has the skills to play, but he just has to be responsible enough to put it all together. That is, of course, is only if what we believe Burke and others are saying is true.

I think he's nowhere near being a bust. Lets say, WORST case scenario he doesn't play in the league until he's 24, and has a ten year career putting up around 50 points a year, thats a pretty good career. But i do believe he has a long way to go to be a top three guy, which is the point i was trying to make before, is the type of player he should be considering his draft position and year. Just my opinion.
I agree. The kid has extreme skill no question about it. He just needs to learn when and where to use it. You don't know how many times I've seen him try that one extra deke at the blue line, screw it up, then turn it over to the team while giving them a 3-2. He needs to learn when to deke, and when to just simply dump and chase. He's becoming harder to get knocked off the puck, and is only going to get stronger if he continues to work with Roberts. Although if his worse case scenario is him putting up 50 pts a year, then color me happy. IMO, worse case scenario he simply just never makes the big leagues. Who really knows what will happen though, only time will tell.

For the draft year/position. If we can get a annually 50 pt player at #7, I won't be angry. Considering who was picked after him, and how generally weak the draft class was as a whole. I won't be thrilled either though.


Last edited by Kelly: 11-21-2012 at 06:05 PM.
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11-21-2012, 06:01 PM
  #613
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Quoted in case it got passed over in the ensuing discussion. I'm genuinely curious as to what kind of role people see him playing at the NHL level.
IMO hes better suited as a winger, not defensively responsible enough for a Centre position in the NHL. Other leaf fans may disagree, I just see him being more productive on the wing.

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11-21-2012, 06:12 PM
  #614
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I must say, Leafs fans need to stop worrying about what the rest of the hockey world thinks. The reason you are continually picked on is because you let people pick on you.

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11-21-2012, 06:13 PM
  #615
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Really man? THAT's what you pick out of his post?
He's right though. I actually like Kadri as a prospect though. I think he'll be a solid 2nd liner eventually. Some kids take a bit more time. I find it hilarious that the experts on here are willing to write off a kid they've hardly seen play.


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11-21-2012, 06:40 PM
  #616
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Kadri's max ceiling is Versteeg imo. Both have great hands, but aren't strong on their skates and mediocre defensively.

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11-21-2012, 07:34 PM
  #617
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Quoted in case it got passed over in the ensuing discussion. I'm genuinely curious as to what kind of role people see him playing at the NHL level.
Wing, he isnt defensively responsible enough for C and his board work and cycle game is simply amazing.

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11-21-2012, 08:01 PM
  #618
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Gillis was asking for Bjugstad who is in a whole different ballpark than Kadri
True. Bijugstad is more in the Colborne ballpark, neither in the same ballpark as kadri.

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11-21-2012, 08:16 PM
  #619
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Actually, at 22 he put up 14G 10A and 24P in only 37 games. He was also a late first-rounder, whereas Kadri is expected do more as a top-10 pick.

If Kadri wasn't a top-10 pick there wouldn't be as much talk of him being a bust.
That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

Just because a player went earlier in the first round of the draft, that doesn't mean that they have a shorter time-frame before they are a bust.

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11-21-2012, 08:25 PM
  #620
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That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

Just because a player went earlier in the first round of the draft, that doesn't mean that they have a shorter time-frame before they are a bust.
Actually it does. Who was the last person picked in the top 10 that was considered a long-term project at the draft?

 
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11-21-2012, 08:27 PM
  #621
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Just because a player went earlier in the first round of the draft, that doesn't mean that they have a shorter time-frame before they are a bust.
That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

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11-21-2012, 08:29 PM
  #622
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Actually it does. Who was the last person picked in the top 10 that was considered a long-term project at the draft?
Bobby Ryan was damn near declared a bust before his rookie season, because he was a 2nd overall pick. Right or wrong, the expectations for high draft picks is just greater.

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11-21-2012, 08:53 PM
  #623
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Actually it does. Who was the last person picked in the top 10 that was considered a long-term project at the draft?
There are plenty that have been longer-term projects. Kadri was always one.

But that is not the point. There is zero reason for a prospect with more skill to be written off before one with less skill.

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11-21-2012, 09:18 PM
  #624
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That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

Just because a player went earlier in the first round of the draft, that doesn't mean that they have a shorter time-frame before they are a bust.
That's exactly what it means. Are you seriously saying that if John Tavares wasn't in the NHL by now he wouldn't be declared a bust?

And do Leafs fans have the same expectations for Carter Ashton and Nazem Kadri? No, their expectations are different based on where they were drafted, as is the case with all prospects.

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11-21-2012, 09:55 PM
  #625
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True. Bijugstad is more in the Colborne ballpark, neither in the same ballpark as kadri.
Pretty much.

Same size, similar draft position, almost identical college careers.

All Bjugstad needs to do now is be a mediocre AHL player for a couple years, while flashing a couple good 10-15 game streaks that make you wonder why he can't do it consistently.

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