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Lockout thread #2: mediation done - no progress

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11-21-2012, 06:09 PM
  #501
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Originally Posted by ponokanocker View Post
I have to disagree. The owners have been at the mercy of the union. The owners are not able to make a profit with giving up 57% of their revenues to their workers. Why continue to run a business if you are only going to lose money? Regardless of what contracts they give out, the players get 57% of the pie. I take it you have never run a business before.
First, you shouldn't presuppose to know me or what my experience is or isn't.

Secondly, you might want to evaluate your perception of the NHL as a standard, run of the mill business. It is a cartel and one that hasn't utilized common sense business practices to plan or grow its business. Cash grab led to bad decisions to place hockey teams in non-traditional, excessively crowded markets like Atlanta and Florida while moving away from monopoly conditions in Canada where there is actually real demand for hockey. No one has held a gun at the owner's heads forcing escalating bad contracts. Furthermore, this is an "industry" heavily reliant upon public subsidy (publicly funded arenas) with dubious tangible return on investment for the cities they inhabit.

Thirdly, study a little NHL history and you will discover the NHL did not properly sustain its greatest asset - the onice talent. This included illegal, collusion with past NHLPA Executive. You know, the one person who is entrusted to look after the player's rights. Go back further and read the legendary story of Detroit Red Wings shortchanging its best player Gordie Howe in the good old days of closed contracts.

NHL ownership have no leg to stand upon. They are here today through greed, bad management, and a failure to respect its workforce. This is hardly a core business for any owner moreso often closer to a plaything to indulge ego.

Classic Lose Lose for both sides. Under Fehr's "leadership" this millionaires union is heading towards contraction and right sizing the league with fewer teams and less paying union members a distinct possibility. That is, if the NHL is truly committed to operating in 'business like' fashion.

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11-21-2012, 06:27 PM
  #502
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Um, perhaps you should learn a bit more about why there is a lockout.

When the average owner is making the same money as an average (i.e. 3rd line) NHL player, there's a problem.

There's more teams than just Phoenix, Florida and Tampa Bay that are in trouble. Probably at least half the teams in the league are making very little money or is in the red. Are you going to find new places to move for all of them?

What arena is there in Quebec CURRENTLY for an NHL team to move to now? I can't see Toronto allowing any new NHL teams to move to Markham or Hamilton. All of your suggestions are not realistic.
So in other words, lockout is pointless

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Old
11-21-2012, 06:38 PM
  #503
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I strongly feel that the impact this lockout will have on the fans is underestimated, even in Canada. I think anyone who takes the Jason strudwick stand of "all Canadian fans will be running back regardless" is seriously kidding themselves and are weakly versed in consumer psychology. One of the main tenets of business 101 is not to underestimate the worth of happy customers. Many major companies fail because the fail to recognize their customers as thinking, feeling people. This isn't a socialist view, it's purely economical.

The problem, as far as I can tell, is that NHL owners view their teams as mere musings, and not rather as income sources. They don't want to lose money, of course, but they don't at all rely on revenue from owning a hockey team as their main source of income. So business 101 is out the window.

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11-21-2012, 08:10 PM
  #504
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So the players' "amazing" new offer was that they get to 50/50 in Year 4?

And they want a guarantee their share of revenue won't fall below a certain share? Yeah, that's getting us nowhere fast.

If the rumblings are true that Fehr and the hardliner players had to be convinced to even budge this much, it's hard to see a season happening.

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Old
11-21-2012, 08:18 PM
  #505
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I'm happy that there's not going to be a season. My evenings are relaxing and my blood pressure is perfect.

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Old
11-21-2012, 08:56 PM
  #506
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Originally Posted by dustrock View Post
So the players' "amazing" new offer was that they get to 50/50 in Year 4?

And they want a guarantee their share of revenue won't fall below a certain share? Yeah, that's getting us nowhere fast.

If the rumblings are true that Fehr and the hardliner players had to be convinced to even budge this much, it's hard to see a season happening.
Not just a guarantee of a certain share, they want a guarantee on the dollar amount they will get. If revenue falls they want the amount they get to be unlinked from HRR.

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Old
11-21-2012, 09:26 PM
  #507
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Not just a guarantee of a certain share, they want a guarantee on the dollar amount they will get. If revenue falls they want the amount they get to be unlinked from HRR.
I think that 43% will look pretty good come "replacement players"

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Old
11-21-2012, 09:58 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by soothsayer View Post
I strongly feel that the impact this lockout will have on the fans is underestimated, even in Canada. I think anyone who takes the Jason strudwick stand of "all Canadian fans will be running back regardless" is seriously kidding themselves and are weakly versed in consumer psychology. One of the main tenets of business 101 is not to underestimate the worth of happy customers. Many major companies fail because the fail to recognize their customers as thinking, feeling people. This isn't a socialist view, it's purely economical.

The problem, as far as I can tell, is that NHL owners view their teams as mere musings, and not rather as income sources. They don't want to lose money, of course, but they don't at all rely on revenue from owning a hockey team as their main source of income. So business 101 is out the window.
Except hockey is a different product than anything else. How many other products do people have a lifetime, sometimes generational attachment to?

Like Strudwick said on the show today, if Yakupov pots a hatty in the first game of the year, anyone who claimed that they were "done" with the league will come running back.

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Old
11-21-2012, 10:07 PM
  #509
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Outstanding comments by Hamrlik yesterday.
Lowers the hammer on Fehr.
It would be nice to see Fehr out of a job

"I am disgusted. We have to push Fehr to the wall to get the deal. Time is against us. We lost 1/4 season, it is $425 million. Who will give it back to us? Mr. Fehr?

"There should be voting between players. Four questions - YES or NO - then count it. If half of players say let's play, then they should sign new CBA. If there is no season he should leave and we will find someone new. Time is our enemy."



http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl...3368--nhl.html

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11-21-2012, 10:12 PM
  #510
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How long until somebody corners Hamrlik and he back-peddles? I'll give it until tomorrow morning.

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11-21-2012, 10:16 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
How long until somebody corners Hamrlik and he back-peddles? I'll give it until tomorrow morning.
Erik Cole already called out Hamrlik.

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11-21-2012, 10:20 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by devils4cup View Post
Erik Cole already called out Hamrlik.
I laughed at Cole's comments.

The bit about how they're all benefiting from the players who sacrificed during the last lockout was especially rich, given the PA's love of whining about their "concessions" during the 2005 lockout.

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11-21-2012, 10:25 PM
  #513
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Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
I laughed at Cole's comments.

The bit about how they're all benefiting from the players who sacrificed during the last lockout was especially rich, given the PA's love of whining about their "concessions" during the 2005 lockout.
They're all ****ing hypocrites. I wonder what Shanahan had to say from the NHL side of the table this week after all of the nonsense he said as a player back in 04/05.

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Old
11-21-2012, 11:04 PM
  #514
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Had to chuckle at Cole's comments as well:

Quote:
"For him to come out and say this, it's the most selfish thing I've heard during the lockout. Without a doubt. It's just disappointing. You'd think the veteran guys are the guys who'd take more pride in what other veteran guys sacrificed in the last lockout, how we all benefited from that as a group. Some guys never played again."
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410028

So the players "lost" the last CBA did they?

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Old
11-21-2012, 11:15 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
I laughed at Cole's comments.

The bit about how they're all benefiting from the players who sacrificed during the last lockout was especially rich, given the PA's love of whining about their "concessions" during the 2005 lockout.
Yup. Never did like Erik Cole .... although the season he put up in Montreal was a real eye popper.
I had that deal pegged as one of the worst off season signings of the year. Lost a bit of cash on it too.

But really who can argue with what Hamrlik said?
The union is supposed to represent the interests of the players.
All Hamrlik did was call for a vote of the members.
If more than half of the players want to start receiving their paychecks then a deal should be signed no matter how much it hurts Fehr's pride.
Not sure how even a PA supporter could argue against that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
How long until somebody corners Hamrlik and he back-peddles? I'll give it until tomorrow morning.
What makes you think he would disown the comments?
Even if he wanted to its pretty hard to backpedal from "its disgusting" don't you think?

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Old
11-21-2012, 11:26 PM
  #516
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Yup. Never did like Erik Cole .... although the season he put up in Montreal was a real eye popper.
I had that deal pegged as one of the worst off season signings of the year. Lost a bit of cash on it too.

But really who can argue with what Hamrlik said?
The union is supposed to represent the interests of the players.
All Hamrlik did was call for a vote of the members.
If more than half of the players want to start receiving their paychecks then a deal should be signed no matter how much it hurts Fehr's pride.
Not sure how even a PA supporter could argue against that.



What makes you think he would disown the comments?
Even if he wanted to its pretty hard to backpedal from "its disgusting" don't you think?
Guess it really goes to show that the PA isnt the one big happy, all members are equal family, that they try to show it as.

Also does Cole not realize that Hammer is more a veteran player than he is?

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Old
11-21-2012, 11:38 PM
  #517
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Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
I laughed at Cole's comments.

The bit about how they're all benefiting from the players who sacrificed during the last lockout was especially rich, given the PA's love of whining about their "concessions" during the 2005 lockout.
Sickening, isn't it?

I honestly lost all hope after the fallout 2 weeks ago after making no progress after 20+ hours of meetings.
It seems that the cult way of thinking within the PA will win out and that the moderates will get shut out after Fehr and the hardliners tell them that the NHL outright rejected their supposed "best proposal".

We all know how this will end. The players will lose a season worth of pay, crawl back to the owners probably around this time next season and take a far worse deal. The owners seem more pissed and unified than ever and the PA will realize this all too late. It's quite sad actually.

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Old
11-21-2012, 11:39 PM
  #518
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I think with the NHLPA we are able to see both extremes. You have a guy like Prust on one side of the spectrum and Hamrlik on the other.

In the end i think there are more on Hamrlik's side than Prust's side. However, it seems like when someone doesn't tow the union brotherhood line you get a guy like Cole to say what he said.

I really question the logic behind Cole's comments. If we get playing you are gonna have to look at a guy you 100% trashed publicly pretty much every day, so why do you say that.

The only other reason I can think of is that Cole is a "hardliner" and he's crapping all over the "moderates" to keep them quiet.

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11-21-2012, 11:45 PM
  #519
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Sickening, isn't it?

I honestly lost all hope after the fallout 2 weeks ago after making no progress after 20+ hours of meetings.
It seems that the cult way of thinking within the PA will win out and that the moderates will get shut out after Fehr and the hardliners tell them that the NHL outright rejected their supposed "best proposal".

We all know how this will end. The players will lose a season worth of pay, crawl back to the owners probably around this time next season and take a far worse deal. The owners seem more pissed and unified than ever and the PA will realize this all too late. It's quite sad actually.
The union will have decertified and Fehr will be bringing antitrust lawsuits long before then.

The nhl as we know it is finished.

Forget about Hall, Hopkins, Yakupov etc, they will all be free agents.

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11-21-2012, 11:47 PM
  #520
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Originally Posted by devils4cup View Post
I think with the NHLPA we are able to see both extremes. You have a guy like Prust on one side of the spectrum and Hamrlik on the other.

In the end i think there are more on Hamrlik's side than Prust's side. However, it seems like when someone doesn't tow the union brotherhood line you get a guy like Cole to say what he said.

I really question the logic behind Cole's comments. If we get playing you are gonna have to look at a guy you 100% trashed publicly pretty much every day, so why do you say that.

The only other reason I can think of is that Cole is a "hardliner" and he's crapping all over the "moderates" to keep them quiet.
The PA knows the NHL has the inherent advantage. If there's blood in the water, Bettman will go for the kill.

I can see why they want the Hamrlik's NOT to voice their opinion in the public forum, I just hope to hell those who feel his way are voicing themselves in conference calls and with their PA reps.

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11-21-2012, 11:52 PM
  #521
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If i remember correctly (on my phone so its hard to check) Hamrlik said in the interview that he tried to voice his concerns to the union but felt that he was ignored. That was his motivation to go public.

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11-21-2012, 11:52 PM
  #522
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The union will have decertified and Fehr will be bringing antitrust lawsuits long before then.

The nhl as we know it is finished.

Forget about Hall, Hopkins, Yakupov etc, they will all be free agents.
Decertification is a waste of time, it didn't do much for the NBA and NFLPA. Fehr might be a dick but he's not stupid.

Everybody who says that the NHL will be hurt long term or even fold due to a season long lockout are out to lunch IMO because the biggest idiots in all this is the fans who keep crawling back no matter how crappy we get treated by the NHL so sure, the league might be hurting short term but it'll be back to business as usual in a couple of years as the fans supply the revenue necessary to sustain the league.

If anything, the lockout might help long term because a few of the teams that were in financial trouble might very well relocate to more stable markets.

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11-21-2012, 11:57 PM
  #523
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Decertification is a waste of time, it didn't do much for the NBA and NFLPA. Fehr might be a dick but he's not stupid.

Everybody who says that the NHL will be hurt long term or even fold due to a season long lockout are out to lunch IMO because the biggest idiots in all this is the fans who keep crawling back no matter how crappy we get treated by the NHL so sure, the league might be hurting short term but it'll be back to business as usual in a couple of years as the fans supply the revenue necessary to sustain the league.

If anything, the lockout might help long term because a few of the teams that were in financial trouble might very well relocate to more stable markets.
The difference between the NHLPA and the NBA and NFL unions is they didnt have Fehr.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

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Old
11-21-2012, 11:59 PM
  #524
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Sickening, isn't it?

I honestly lost all hope after the fallout 2 weeks ago after making no progress after 20+ hours of meetings.
It seems that the cult way of thinking within the PA will win out and that the moderates will get shut out after Fehr and the hardliners tell them that the NHL outright rejected their supposed "best proposal".

We all know how this will end. The players will lose a season worth of pay, crawl back to the owners probably around this time next season and take a far worse deal. The owners seem more pissed and unified than ever and the PA will realize this all too late. It's quite sad actually.
The idea that 700 players are all on the same side is ludicrous. There are players who probably wanted to jump at 43% of HRR and get the train rolling. There are also players who are probably cringing at the ground given up by the NHLPA and are thinking Fehr is a light weight.

People need to stop pontificating on the every word of a single players or likewise a single owner.

Both sides have committed to negotiating parties on their behalf and really it's only the words of the leadership that have any bearing

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11-22-2012, 12:00 AM
  #525
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Is all I have to say about the decertification talk. The players don't want it, know it won't help them, would rather take the NHL's offer.

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Both sides have committed to negotiating parties on their behalf and really it's only the words of the leadership that have any bearing
In the case of the PA, that's disproven by the players upending their leadership twice in the recent past.

More likely, though, the deal gets close enough that it's taken to a vote and then they decide about their leadership.

In the owners case, it would take a huge majority to go against Bettman's "recommendation", and that's not going to happen.

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