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Old
11-18-2012, 07:56 PM
  #51
The Nose
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You don't need to fight to be a good leader.

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11-18-2012, 08:13 PM
  #52
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No. But when you go around hurting people for a living, you shouldn't make a habit of making Claude Lemieux look brave.

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11-18-2012, 09:49 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
When it comes to leaders, I follow leaders who don't shy away from challenges.
I follow leaders who don't act like cowards on the ice.

And if you think none of this matters, people should remember the rep our team had before Brendan Shanahan came to town.
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Zetterberg doesn't have Yzerman's fire.

Datsyuk does. He's a much more competitive and combative player.
I remember when I was young and bench clearing brawls would happen and the whole team would fight somebody would go stand by the bench. Now you aren't silly enough to call Yzerman a bad leader are you or not having fire? I mean he needed a Shanahan right. Well maybe Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Kronwall need that guy like Fedorov, Lidstrom, and Yzerman did.

Zetterberg is pretty competitive and fiery. There is a reason he is usually the targeted guy, why Malkin, Crosby, Weber and the Ducks wanted at him so bad. My guess is he plays with a little more fire than you think. He has been targeted too much for me not to believe he is crafty with his stick and plays to the line a lot like Larionov. You might think him soft but it seems the other players around the league don't think that and I have never thought Zetterberg lacks heart. In fact of the two players one of them is significantly better when the chips down and it is time to win in the playoffs. I really like Pavel but Hank is just as important to this team.

As for the Kronwall thing, we get it, he is not your favorite person. But a lot of people do respect him, maybe you wouldn't share a dressing room with him. Konstantinov who I know people love around here had a whopping 14 fights in his six year career regular season and post-season. 2 a season and half of those were the grab on and go to the ice variety. Now yes he fought, but you would think he went after every big hit the way people talk about it around here. I don't know why you need to see Kronwall fight so bad, all he would do is grab and wrestle to the ice. He clearly isn't going to be great at it and now that he is the number 1 he can't go to the box either.

You're also talking about a guy that whenever somebody eats his lunch doesn't say boo and tips his cap. When Georges Laraque takes out his knee he says nothing, when Stewart boards him that is the leagues job, when Koivu plants him and wins the game that was a heck of play. It could be Kronwall lives by his own code, he doesn't get bent out of shape when people hit him big and he doesn't think he should stand up for plays he thinks are legit. Since the league has never suspended him they agree that those plays are legit. Alexei Emelin is going to be a similar player fought once in the playoffs in the KHL, big hitter who isn't going to drop them. Marchenko reminds me a lot of Emelin and I think he might be a big hitter if he evolves that part of his game, but my guess is he won't fight as much either. I think a lot of the European guys don't think you have to answer for clean plays and big hits, it is a part of the game. You don't see it happen nearly as much in their games, that is a stupid NA element that happens a little too often.

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11-18-2012, 09:56 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Zetterberg doesn't have Yzerman's fire.

Datsyuk does. He's a much more competitive and combative player.
Zetterberg has Yzerman's fire. All the way down to playing through injury. Datsyuk has fire too. All 3 do/did, as well as being on the same compete level. Not sure what you mean by combative, but I don't view any of them as being very combative.

You've always under-rated those aspects of Zetterberg's game though. I don't expect that to change at this point

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11-18-2012, 09:58 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
No. But when you go around hurting people for a living, you shouldn't make a habit of making Claude Lemieux look brave.
If you think Kronwall makes Lemieux look "brave," I think you will be pretty alone on that topic.

So should Kronwall stop hitting people?

Such a silly notion that Kronwall has to fight after his hits, lest he be a coward. I still can't figure out how the game devolved into that state in recent years.

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11-18-2012, 10:11 PM
  #56
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I like Pavel more than Z but to say Zetterberg doesnt play with fire is pretty silly ... in the playoffs this year Hank was easily our best player through that short and embarassing run. Aside from 2011 when he had a strained MCL all playoffs and missed the entire first round he has been the better clutch performer than Pavel so far in their playoff careers. For a little guy he mixes it up very well and is probably pound 4 pound one of the strongest guys on the puck down low.

As for Kronwall ... well, he is pretty gutless sometimes. Ive only ever seen him fight once (Souray in 04/05) and it wasnt pretty. Even though I dont enjoy seeing him back down from fights id prefer he keeps laying guys out with clean hits as he does better than anyone in the league. In terms of scrapping some guys simply dont have the heart or chin for it ... Kronner knows himself better than any of us - theres a reason he doesnt fight and its probably because hes no good at it. What good is a bone-crushing hit on Vorachek is he fights Rinaldo the next shift and gets Lilja'd and spends 3 months concussed?

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11-19-2012, 10:08 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by jroc86 View Post
As for Kronwall ... well, he is pretty gutless sometimes. Ive only ever seen him fight once (Souray in 04/05) and it wasnt pretty.
That was his brother Staffan.

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11-19-2012, 10:38 PM
  #58
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That was his brother Staffan.
Ah crap. Good call.

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11-19-2012, 10:44 PM
  #59
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[QUOTE=RedWings19405;55869889]I remember when I was young and bench clearing brawls would happen and the whole team would fight somebody would go stand by the bench. Now you aren't silly enough to call Yzerman a bad leader are you or not having fire? I mean he needed a Shanahan right. Well maybe Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Kronwall need that guy like Fedorov, Lidstrom, and Yzerman did.

Quote:
Zetterberg is pretty competitive and fiery. There is a reason he is usually the targeted guy, why Malkin, Crosby, Weber and the Ducks wanted at him so bad. My guess is he plays with a little more fire than you think. He has been targeted too much for me not to believe he is crafty with his stick and plays to the line a lot like Larionov. You might think him soft but it seems the other players around the league don't think that and I have never thought Zetterberg lacks heart. In fact of the two players one of them is significantly better when the chips down and it is time to win in the playoffs. I really like Pavel but Hank is just as important to this team.
I am not saying that Zetterberg is soft. I am saying he avoids confrontation too much. One fight doesn't make Pavel tough. But Pavel plays a lot tougher than Zetterberg... It takes guts to deliver a flying elbow to Jackman's head after he's given you 10 crosschecks to the kidney.

With Yzerman, his combativeness wasn't about fighting as it was about fire. He was hated by officials for the way he berated them (not nearly the class act that many pretend). Yzerman, as he got older, hated to lose.

And symbolically, he was a competitor in the 2002 playoffs on a nearly mythical level.

Quote:
As for the Kronwall thing, we get it, he is not your favorite person. But a lot of people do respect him, maybe you wouldn't share a dressing room with him. Konstantinov who I know people love around here had a whopping 14 fights in his six year career regular season and post-season. 2 a season and half of those were the grab on and go to the ice variety. Now yes he fought, but you would think he went after every big hit the way people talk about it around here. I don't know why you need to see Kronwall fight so bad, all he would do is grab and wrestle to the ice. He clearly isn't going to be great at it and now that he is the number 1 he can't go to the box either.
Vladdy was tenacious. Kronwall doesn't have to fight 14 times in six years (which isn't exactly nothing, by the way).
But turtling?
Making sure there's a ref between you and the guy who's angry at you?

It's an overall general cowardice he portrays. Konstantinov would turn the other cheek at times... but he did so with a smirk that said "F You"
He didn't hit and run.


Quote:
Since the league has never suspended him they agree that those plays are legit. Alexei Emelin is going to be a similar player fought once in the playoffs in the KHL, big hitter who isn't going to drop them. Marchenko reminds me a lot of Emelin and I think he might be a big hitter if he evolves that part of his game, but my guess is he won't fight as much either. I think a lot of the European guys don't think you have to answer for clean plays and big hits, it is a part of the game. You don't see it happen nearly as much in their games, that is a stupid NA element that happens a little too often.
We'll see.
The Marchenko I've seen so far hasn't been very physical, but has been pretty slick.

Like i've said a million times.
Dirty and illegal are two different things.

Hitting someone who isn't looking is dirty. It can be legal. it can be illegal.

But when the only physical aspect to your game is trying to catch people with their head down, that's dirty. It's legal. But it's dirty.

And when you play dirty, you need to answer for it like a man, or you shouldn't play dirty.

You can hit hard without catching people with their heads down. You can play tough out front of the net or at the boards (which Kronwall does not).

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11-19-2012, 10:48 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
If you think Kronwall makes Lemieux look "brave," I think you will be pretty alone on that topic.

So should Kronwall stop hitting people?

Such a silly notion that Kronwall has to fight after his hits, lest he be a coward. I still can't figure out how the game devolved into that state in recent years.
The game has always required guys who try to hurt people to answer for their actions.

Only recently, with the elimination of the instigator penalty and the elimination of goons from NHL rosters, have hit-and-run cowards become a staple of the game.

Guys like Stevens and Konstantinov answered the bell when they had to.

Besides... this whole idea the Stevens/Kronwall hit is kind of a new concept in the NHL. It was done, but rarely.
Until Stevens made it popular, the big highlight reel hit was the hipcheck....

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11-19-2012, 10:50 PM
  #61
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Zetterberg has Yzerman's fire. All the way down to playing through injury. Datsyuk has fire too. All 3 do/did, as well as being on the same compete level. Not sure what you mean by combative, but I don't view any of them as being very combative.

You've always under-rated those aspects of Zetterberg's game though. I don't expect that to change at this point
Then you don't understand that element of Yzerman's game and Datsyuk's game.

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11-19-2012, 10:57 PM
  #62
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Lol the last thing Kronwall is is a coward. Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Kronwall don't have Brendan Shanahan, Darren McCarty, etc to back them up. Lidstrom didn't play physical and he was an amazing captain. This whole notion that you have to play dirty or fight to be a leader is complete crap. Zetterberg has developed into a great leader, and it shows by his actions on and off the ice. And if Kronwall lays a big hit, he doesn't fight, he keeps his composure under pressure just like any other leader would.

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11-20-2012, 05:09 AM
  #63
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Lol the last thing Kronwall is is a coward. Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Kronwall don't have Brendan Shanahan, Darren McCarty, etc to back them up. Lidstrom didn't play physical and he was an amazing captain. This whole notion that you have to play dirty or fight to be a leader is complete crap. Zetterberg has developed into a great leader, and it shows by his actions on and off the ice. And if Kronwall lays a big hit, he doesn't fight, he keeps his composure under pressure just like any other leader would.
Don't even get CB started on Lidstrom.

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11-20-2012, 05:22 AM
  #64
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rREz...e_gdata_player

I want to see these at Winged wheel again...soon.

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11-20-2012, 07:57 AM
  #65
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Then you don't understand that element of Yzerman's game and Datsyuk's game.


And I don't believe you understand Zetterberg's game. So here we are.

Take your own medicine. Do a google search of "Yzerman" and "combative," or "Datsyuk" and "combative." You get nothing. You get references to guys like Ray Ferraro, Peter Forsberg, Sean Avery, and the Flyers in general being combative. Nothing on Yzerman or Datsyuk. Guess a lot of people are unaware of that "element" of their games.

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11-20-2012, 08:09 AM
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The most common thing in Datsyuk and Yzerman is that both scored/scores when it matters the most. They play their best game when the stakes are the highest or the pressure situation is the tightest.

I wouldn't say that Zetterberg doesn't do that. He's very good also, but Pavel has more those impressive last minute goals, gamewinner and equalizers or passes to make the clinching play. Just like Yzerman did. If somebody can find game-winning-goals+assists statistic somewhere, I'm quite sure Pavel Datsyuk leads that.

Where was that weighted scoring stats, when game is tight, tied or 1 goal difference, own team behind? I remember Pavel Datsyuk was the best NHL-scorer counted that way.

Nobody cares about easy points in a 8-2 win, when the other team has already given up. But 1+1 in 2-1 playoff overtime win, you are nothing but the man of the match.

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11-20-2012, 10:11 AM
  #67
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Don't even get CB started on Lidstrom.
Lidstrom did not go around trying to knock guys into next week when their head was down.

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11-20-2012, 10:14 AM
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And I don't believe you understand Zetterberg's game. So here we are.

Take your own medicine. Do a google search of "Yzerman" and "combative," or "Datsyuk" and "combative." You get nothing. You get references to guys like Ray Ferraro, Peter Forsberg, Sean Avery, and the Flyers in general being combative. Nothing on Yzerman or Datsyuk. Guess a lot of people are unaware of that "element" of their games.
If you don't want to see it...If you are actively trying to deny it...you're not going to see it.

Whatever.

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11-20-2012, 11:03 AM
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You can hit hard without catching people with their heads down. You can play tough out front of the net or at the boards (which Kronwall does not).[/QUOTE]

^Agree with this totally. I like Kronner but his physical game beyond a few bombs a week is pretty soft. Id like to see him add a bit of Adam Foote/Scott Stevens to his compete level shift in shift out.

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11-20-2012, 12:02 PM
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^Agree with this totally. I like Kronner but his physical game beyond a few bombs a week is pretty soft. Id like to see him add a bit of Adam Foote/Scott Stevens to his compete level shift in shift out.
I don't think Kronner is big enough to play that sort of game. He's more suited to open ice hitting.

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11-20-2012, 12:59 PM
  #71
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I am not saying that Zetterberg is soft. I am saying he avoids confrontation too much. One fight doesn't make Pavel tough. But Pavel plays a lot tougher than Zetterberg... It takes guts to deliver a flying elbow to Jackman's head after he's given you 10 crosschecks to the kidney.

With Yzerman, his combativeness wasn't about fighting as it was about fire. He was hated by officials for the way he berated them (not nearly the class act that many pretend). Yzerman, as he got older, hated to lose.
I dont understand, you praise datsyuk for throwing a retaliatory elbow at jackman, but vilify kronwall for what you deem his dirty hits.

Did you cheer when kronwall put clowe on his butt in the playoffs a few years ago after he'd been running his mouth?

And what would it help if kronwall did fight? We'd lose our best offensive defenseman for 5 minutes

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11-20-2012, 02:37 PM
  #72
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I dont understand, you praise datsyuk for throwing a retaliatory elbow at jackman, but vilify kronwall for what you deem his dirty hits.

Did you cheer when kronwall put clowe on his butt in the playoffs a few years ago after he'd been running his mouth?

And what would it help if kronwall did fight? We'd lose our best offensive defenseman for 5 minutes
Datsyuk doesn't hide.
He doesn't fall to his knees and cover up like a turtle.

And Datsyuk, in the instance I mentioned, is retaliatory.

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11-20-2012, 04:11 PM
  #73
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Datsyuk doesn't hide.
He doesn't fall to his knees and cover up like a turtle.

And Datsyuk, in the instance I mentioned, is retaliatory.
You didnt answer my question, I'll continue...

ryane clowe who'd been very physical towards our top forwards in that series in '11, had run his mouth about wanting to "line up next to kronwall" after his hit on heatley, and had 5 pts in 4 games against us to boot...

Kronwall nails him with an unpenalized hit, draws a retaliatory penalty, and swings momentum to the Wings in an elimination game.

Clowe didnt score a pt in game 6, didnt play game 7.

But you want kronwall to negate all that by having a good ol' playoff donnybrook against a guy with 25 lbs on him. Sin bin for 5 minutes, in an elimination game. And keep in mind, kronwall was our best defenseman in those playoffs.

But to think that all he had to do was throw a retaliatory elbow and he would've been fine in your book. Shame

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11-21-2012, 11:55 PM
  #74
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He's gone when his contract is up in all probability, isn't he 35 or so already?

Also Russia is where his daughter is.

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11-22-2012, 05:06 AM
  #75
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He's gone when his contract is up in all probability, isn't he 35 or so already?

Also Russia is where his daughter is.
Pavel is 34. But I can see him as an "ageless" player. That "Larionov" that is there at 40 year old. Centers the 4th line and takes the key faceoffs and runs the 1st power-play. Is the huge important veteran example for younger players. Ray Whitneys, Teemu Selannes can do, Pavel can do it. Without any doubt. That superb game sense just makes it possible.

I see him also gone after 2014. The divorce and daughter situation changed everything. If his family would still be at Detroit, that would be a no-brainer to stay here.

But, if he stays, let's take that just as a happy surprice. Maybe he needs a new woman. All the Michigan American women, I challenge you to keep Pavel here!

(Same like case Nabokov was. His american wife didn't want to live at Russia, so they came back)

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