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Who Makes the HHOF?

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Old
11-21-2012, 04:24 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by DatsyukianDeke View Post
What is your point ? Datsyuk plays a very effective non physical game, he could probably play until he's 40 if he wanted to and still dominate players the way he does today. Datsyuk's vision, dangling and how he slows the game down will allow him to play longer in his career than most players, he doesn't need to skate fast and physical to be effective.

Zetterberg if he could return to form (which I don't think he will because of his back issues) would definitely improve his chances, but I still think he gets in when his career is finished. He still plays a great two way game, his defense is amazing as is his offensive ability. That and he has a Conn Smythe and is a beast in the playoffs.

Age really doesn't affect either of these two players, i'm positive Datsyuk will be in, but Zetterberg might take abit longer.
Zetterberg has outcored Datsyuk per-minute at ES each of the last two years, and was a PPG player in 10-11. He also scored 35 points in the last 34 games if 2011-12. There's no "return" to form. He's still an elite center. He had a slow start offensively last year because he was playing hurt, but ultimately he brought a strong offensive performance and carried the team's #1 offensive line.

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11-21-2012, 05:16 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
I would want to see st louis over zetterberg or datsyuk to be honest. Those two are gret hall of very good material
Yeah but since the HOF's standards are very low they wil get in.

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Old
11-21-2012, 05:25 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Zetterberg has outcored Datsyuk per-minute at ES each of the last two years, and was a PPG player in 10-11. He also scored 35 points in the last 34 games if 2011-12. There's no "return" to form. He's still an elite center. He had a slow start offensively last year because he was playing hurt, but ultimately he brought a strong offensive performance and carried the team's #1 offensive line.
By return to form I meant score 40 goals and average 90 points. Everyone knows Zetterberg is still a huge threat and is one of the more dominant centers in the league in terms of defensive ability.

Datsyuk also doesn't rely on points, so it's irrelevant that Zetterberg has outscored him, not to mention Datsyuk has barely had any sort of elite talent to play with in the last 3 years besides Hossa. The average Datsyuk line is playing with Holmstrom and Franzen, two of the slower, lazier players in the league.

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11-21-2012, 05:47 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Litework View Post
Yeah but since the HOF's standards are very low they wil get in.
They are questionable picks, I'd like to see some arguments put forth for both of them here.

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11-21-2012, 06:55 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Michalek is at least a legit top-six forward. McEachern and Dackell were leeches. Yashin completely carried that team. Spezza has also had Alfredsson after he bloomed, plus a developed Hossa (and later Heatley). Yashin had himself.
Maceachern was no less a top-6 forward than Michalek is now. Dackell and Greening are a wash. They were similar linemates offensive and defensively, only argument you could make otherwise is the size advantage that Spezza's wingers possessed.

Alfie broke out his first year and then had injury problems. Hossa didn't play with either, wasn't on their teams long and didn't really match with their peak seasons.

Did you look at the teammates Yashin had over the years and wonder why they didn't score with him, but scored before or broke out after? The guy was a pain in the to find linemates for because he couldn't adapt to anybody else. They either fit into his rigid play selection or they didn't. He meshed well with Kudelski, Maceachern and Duchesne in 7-8 years and that was about it. Plus Maceachern was far from instant chemistry. He had great size and awesome skill, but relatively poor hockey sense.

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Old
11-21-2012, 09:00 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by DatsyukianDeke View Post
By return to form I meant score 40 goals and average 90 points. Everyone knows Zetterberg is still a huge threat and is one of the more dominant centers in the league in terms of defensive ability.

Datsyuk also doesn't rely on points, so it's irrelevant that Zetterberg has outscored him, not to mention Datsyuk has barely had any sort of elite talent to play with in the last 3 years besides Hossa. The average Datsyuk line is playing with Holmstrom and Franzen, two of the slower, lazier players in the league.
Holmstrom hasn't been a regular linemate of Datsyuk since 2010. He spent most of last year with Franzen and Bertuzzi, with Cleary working in sometimes.

Also, is finishing 8th (tied with one other) in the league that much worse than finishing 6th (tied with two others)? Very close.

You say that points don't matter? In that case, you act as if Datsyuk has a boatload of accomplishments and Z has none. Yet Z has the most notable accomplishment of the two of them; the Conn Smythe. Both have been top-ten in scoring twice. Comparable career stats; Z is ahead in goals despite a year less, but has a slightly lower PPG.

Unless you think Dats winning the Selkes that should have gone to Z makes up enough the difference from "maybe he'll do enough" to "he's a lock", you need to classify them both in the same spot.

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11-21-2012, 10:41 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Maceachern was no less a top-6 forward than Michalek is now. Dackell and Greening are a wash. They were similar linemates offensive and defensively, only argument you could make otherwise is the size advantage that Spezza's wingers possessed.
McEachern's scoring without Yashin (before and after) is significantly worse than with Yashin - save for one year in Atlanta where he played opposite Kovalchuk.

Michalek's numbers with Spezza last year are comparable to his last three seasons in San Jose. It's worth noting that although Michalek did play some with Thornton, he spent more time with Pavelski as his center.

Quote:
Alfie broke out his first year and then had injury problems. Hossa didn't play with either, wasn't on their teams long and didn't really match with their peak seasons.
Hossa is certainly relevant; he led the team in scoring both years he was there with Spezza. Teenage Yashin stepped on to an expansion team in its second year, a team that set a record for futility. He went out and excelled, and led the team. Yashin eventually clashed too much with the Senators over his contract, spurred on initially by their hesitance to sign him to a multi-year deal, while signing Daigle immediately to a then-gigantic contract ($12.25m over 5 years) that made him among the highest paid in the league and caused the league to institute a rookie salary cap.

Quote:
Did you look at the teammates Yashin had over the years and wonder why they didn't score with him, but scored before or broke out after? The guy was a pain in the to find linemates for because he couldn't adapt to anybody else. They either fit into his rigid play selection or they didn't. He meshed well with Kudelski, Maceachern and Duchesne in 7-8 years and that was about it. Plus Maceachern was far from instant chemistry. He had great size and awesome skill, but relatively poor hockey sense.
McEachern had the ability to be good for a stretch, but that was it. He was a 2/3 tweener. And I'm not sure where you're getting the size thing on him... are we talking about the same player?

Regardless, Yashin IMHO was better than Spezza.

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Old
11-22-2012, 01:04 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
Getting 90+ points with a decent two-way player and a fading winger in an era with a center red line for two-line passes and having a thirty-eight point lead on the second-place scorer on the team, as opposed to Spezza who was six points ahead of Karlsson (a Norris winner!) is quite a bit more impressive.

Yashin had 19 PPG and McEachern, Dackell and Johansson had 20 (!) combined.
He had fifty-nine more points than the team's top-scoring "D", noted right-hand shot and radio personality Jason York. who had 35 points.

Yash isn't making the HHOF though so it's a non-issue. I'd be shocked if Spezza made it as well, he's compiled well but hasn't yet lifted the Senators on his shoulders to a Cup win.
Maceachern was fading at 29 yo compete to young buck Michalek at 27 yo?

They played in similar lines in those two seasons. Spezza had Karlsson and Yashin had a much deeper team overall. Either way, with similar linemates Spezza finished 4th in scoring and Yashin finished 6th.

Playoffs? Yashin had 15 points in 26 games for us and 27 in 48 overall. He was brutal! Alfie scored 22 goals in our teams first 44 playoff games alone. Yashin also only won 1 playoff series in his entire 12 year career. Spezza has 51 points in 53 games and has been key in the team winning 4 playoff series in his 8 full years in the league. There's no comparison here and "Cup or no Cup is an idiotic

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Old
11-22-2012, 01:43 AM
  #184
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If Iginla gets in Thornton does too.

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11-22-2012, 09:51 AM
  #185
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In my eyes, Datsyuk should be a lock. This guy is without a doubt one of the most skilled players to ever play the game; in both the offensive and defensive ends of the ice. If I were to pick one of the players listed to build my team around in their prime, it would be between Datsyuk, Crosby, Brodeur, Ovie, and Malkin. That's high praise.

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11-22-2012, 10:36 AM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Holmstrom hasn't been a regular linemate of Datsyuk since 2010. He spent most of last year with Franzen and Bertuzzi, with Cleary working in sometimes.

Also, is finishing 8th (tied with one other) in the league that much worse than finishing 6th (tied with two others)? Very close.

You say that points don't matter? In that case, you act as if Datsyuk has a boatload of accomplishments and Z has none. Yet Z has the most notable accomplishment of the two of them; the Conn Smythe. Both have been top-ten in scoring twice. Comparable career stats; Z is ahead in goals despite a year less, but has a slightly lower PPG.

Unless you think Dats winning the Selkes that should have gone to Z makes up enough the difference from "maybe he'll do enough" to "he's a lock", you need to classify them both in the same spot.
When was the last time Datsyuk played a full season without missing 20-30 games ? 2010, when he played full time with Holmstrom. Datsyuk with Bertuzzi and Cleary on the wing... thats one terrible mess to play with.

I'm not saying points don't matter at all, but if you look as far back as 2008 (after Z wasn't playing with Datsyuk anymore) Datsyuk hasn't even had a chance to play with some of the linemates Zetterberg has (Flip would be better with Datsyuk). If you can't admit Z has had better linemates than Datsyuk other than 2009 then you don't watch too many Red Wing games. Most Red Wing fans can agree with this. Both will be in the HHOF, I just think Datsyuk is more of a lock right now than Z.

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11-22-2012, 11:39 AM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DatsyukianDeke View Post
When was the last time Datsyuk played a full season without missing 20-30 games ? 2010, when he played full time with Holmstrom. Datsyuk with Bertuzzi and Cleary on the wing... thats one terrible mess to play with.

I'm not saying points don't matter at all, but if you look as far back as 2008 (after Z wasn't playing with Datsyuk anymore) Datsyuk hasn't even had a chance to play with some of the linemates Zetterberg has (Flip would be better with Datsyuk). If you can't admit Z has had better linemates than Datsyuk other than 2009 then you don't watch too many Red Wing games. Most Red Wing fans can agree with this. Both will be in the HHOF, I just think Datsyuk is more of a lock right now than Z.
hmm so for a playing a non physical game he sure does get injured lots the past few seasons (most of those being knee injuries or lower body if i'm not mistaken, which is huge for someone that likes to pivot and turn as quick as dats does)

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Old
11-22-2012, 12:27 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
McEachern's scoring without Yashin (before and after) is significantly worse than with Yashin - save for one year in Atlanta where he played opposite Kovalchuk.

Michalek's numbers with Spezza last year are comparable to his last three seasons in San Jose. It's worth noting that although Michalek did play some with Thornton, he spent more time with Pavelski as his center.

McEachern had the ability to be good for a stretch, but that was it. He was a 2/3 tweener. And I'm not sure where you're getting the size thing on him... are we talking about the same player?
72, 61, 60, 60, 55, 53, 49, 48, 47, 46, 45, 39

McEachern's 82 game point paces in his 12 full seasons in the league. In bold are the 4 seasons that he spent with Yashin. They trend high (because Yashin was a good player), but they weren't much higher than the rest of his career and he was never considered a 3rd liner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Hossa is certainly relevant; he led the team in scoring both years he was there with Spezza.
No, he isn't.
02-03, Spezza played 33 games as an AHL call up.
03-04, Spezza scored 55 points as rookie mostly on the 3rd line with Havlat.

In 98-99, Hossa scored 30 points as a rookie in Yashin's career season.
In 00-01, Hossa was 2nd on the team to Yashin in points with 75... while playing with Bonk that season.

00-01 is the only remotely interesting season in terms of production between any of these players; except that none of them played together and this season goes against your argument. I have no idea where you were going with this whatsoever,

Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Teenage Yashin stepped on to an expansion team in its second year, a team that set a record for futility. He went out and excelled, and led the team. Yashin eventually clashed too much with the Senators over his contract, spurred on initially by their hesitance to sign him to a multi-year deal, while signing Daigle immediately to a then-gigantic contract ($12.25m over 5 years) that made him among the highest paid in the league and caused the league to institute a rookie salary cap.
Teenaged Yashin also got ice time that he didn't deserve handed to him because the team was so bad when he first started. He never had to fight for ice time or work his way up through the depth chart. Because of that, he also never improved his game and (like Daigle) suffered greatly for it when he started playing for better/other teams.

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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Regardless, Yashin IMHO was better than Spezza.
Yeah; a terrible defensive player, awful face-off man, brutal in the postseason... who offset all of that with a whopping 2 PPG seasons out of his 12 year career?

Face-off % (2001-present)
Spezza = 52.1
Yashin = 46.1

Playoffs (Career)
Spezza = 53-17-34-51, 0.96
Yashin = 48-11-16-27, 0.56

Regular Season (Career)
Spezza = 606-226-390-616, 1.02
Yashin = 850-337-444-781, 0.92

Peak Seasons
Yashin = a mere two PPG seasons
Spezza = four times in the top-6 in PPG (4th, 5th, 5th, 6th)

Defensively
No debate here, Spezza is much better than Yashin ever was defensively.

So uh, what was it that you were saying? ... Because I thought that it might have been something ridiculous.

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11-22-2012, 01:49 PM
  #189
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I don't see Datsyuk making it because of his point totals. He is more skilled and a more valuable player than a few people who will definitely make it though.

I for sure hope he gets in.
his 3 consecutive selke trophies is huge

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11-22-2012, 02:00 PM
  #190
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He was so good the ilses were paying him not to play
and the isles haven't made the playoffs since he was on the team and he lead the team in scoring every year he was healthy, yashin wasn't absolutely awful, he was a good player but he couldnt be the go to guy for anything better than a borderline playoff team

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11-22-2012, 07:52 PM
  #191
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Yeah but since the HOF's standards are very low they wil get in.
I'm late to the thread but if people are arguing Martin St. Louis getting in? His art ross and hart trophy say hello. Not to mention his lester b. pearson/lindsay award.

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11-22-2012, 08:16 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Face-off % (2001-present)
Spezza = 52.1
Yashin = 46.1

Playoffs (Career)
Spezza = 53-17-34-51, 0.96
Yashin = 48-11-16-27, 0.56

Regular Season (Career)
Spezza = 606-226-390-616, 1.02
Yashin = 850-337-444-781, 0.92

Peak Seasons
Yashin = a mere two PPG seasons
Spezza = four times in the top-6 in PPG (4th, 5th, 5th, 6th)

Defensively
No debate here, Spezza is much better than Yashin ever was defensively.

So uh, what was it that you were saying? ... Because I thought that it might have been something ridiculous.
Spezza's PPG advantage can be accounted for by a couple things. One, he centered the Pizza line. McEachern was the best linemate Yashin ever had in Ottawa. Spezza played with Heatley and Alfredsson at their peaks.

Furthermore, Yashin played in a lower scoring period. If you account for that difference, Yashin's offensive numbers are actually better.

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11-22-2012, 11:29 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Spezza's PPG advantage can be accounted for by a couple things. One, he centered the Pizza line. McEachern was the best linemate Yashin ever had in Ottawa. Spezza played with Heatley and Alfredsson at their peaks.
No, the best linemate he ever had was Alfredsson (in IIRC; the 1996-97 & 2000-01 seasons).

Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Furthermore, Yashin played in a lower scoring period. If you account for that difference, Yashin's offensive numbers are actually better.
Goals per game, per season since the start of Yashin's career until now.
Blue = Yashin only
Red = Both Yashin & Spezza played
Green = Spezza only

6.48
6.29

6.17
5.97
5.89
5.83
5.83
5.68
5.59
5.57

5.51
5.47
5.31
5.28
5.27
5.24

5.14

Yashin played in all of the top-6 highest scoring seasons of the past 17 seasons. Perhaps we should be making 'era' arguments for Spezza.

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11-23-2012, 08:18 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by startainfection View Post
and the isles haven't made the playoffs since he was on the team and he lead the team in scoring every year he was healthy, yashin wasn't absolutely awful, he was a good player but he couldnt be the go to guy for anything better than a borderline playoff team
Nope he wasnt awful,this is true .But i would take spezza all day everday over him thats what this post was about ,not to ruffle any islander fans

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11-23-2012, 09:42 AM
  #195
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The standard is high. Dave Andreychuk still not in with:

5th most games played in NHL history with 1639.
14th most goals scored in NHL history with 640.
Tied with Denis Savard for 27th in league history with 1,338 points.
Holds the record for most NHL career power-play goals with 274.
199192 NHL power-play goals leader with 28.
199293 NHL power-play goals leader with 32.
Oldest player to make Stanley Cup Finals debut: 40 years, 7 months (May 25, 2004).
Played in NHL All-Star Game in 1990 and 1994.
Stanley Cup champion 2004

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11-23-2012, 10:06 AM
  #196
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If Iginla gets in Thornton does too.
They both deserve it.

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11-23-2012, 10:14 AM
  #197
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Originally Posted by BoltSTH View Post
The standard is high. Dave Andreychuk still not in with:

5th most games played in NHL history with 1639.
14th most goals scored in NHL history with 640.
Tied with Denis Savard for 27th in league history with 1,338 points.
Holds the record for most NHL career power-play goals with 274.
199192 NHL power-play goals leader with 28.
199293 NHL power-play goals leader with 32.
Oldest player to make Stanley Cup Finals debut: 40 years, 7 months (May 25, 2004).
Played in NHL All-Star Game in 1990 and 1994.
Stanley Cup champion 2004
hmmm what stands out about his career, and why he's not in the hall of fame. lack of personal awards thats what.

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11-23-2012, 10:48 AM
  #198
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hmmm what stands out about his career, and why he's not in the hall of fame. lack of personal awards thats what.
What stands out is he was just good. Andreychuk was never great, and was never the best.

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11-23-2012, 07:46 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Yashin played in all of the top-6 highest scoring seasons of the past 17 seasons. Perhaps we should be making 'era' arguments for Spezza.
That's a nice argument without context.

The average number of goals scored go as such:

96-97 5.83 NHL GPG; OTW 2.76GF, 2.85GA; Yashin 82GP, 35-40-75

97-98 5.27 NHL GPG; OTW 2.35GF, 2.44GA; Yashin 82GP, 33-39-72

98-99 5.27 NHL GPG; OTW 2.91GF, 2.18GA; Yashin 82GP, 44-50-94

99-00 5.49 NHL GPG; OTW 2.98GF, 2.56GA; Yashin holdout/susp

00-01 5.51 NHL GPG; OTW 3.34GF, 2.50GA; Yashin 82GP, 40-48-88

Yashin traded to NYI.

01-02 5.24 NHL GPG; NYI 2.91GF, 2.68GA; Yashin 78GP, 32-43-75

Spezza enters the league.

02-03 5.32 NHL GPG; NYI 2.73GF, 2.82GA; Yashin 81GP, 26-39-65
02-03 5.32 NHL GPG; OTW 3.21GF, 2.22GA; Spezza 33GP, 7-14-21

03-04 5.15 NHL GPG; NYI 2.89GF, 2.56GA; Yashin 47GP, 15-19-34
03-04 5.15 NHL GPG; OTW 3.20GF, 2.30GA; Spezza 78GP, 22-33-55

Hossa is traded for Heatley.

05-06 6.17 NHL GPG; NYI 2.80GF, 3.39GA; Yashin 82GP, 28-38-66
05-06 6.17 NHL GPG; OTW 3.83GF, 2.57GA; Spezza 68GP, 19-71-90

Note: Both of Spezza's wingers outscored him. Miro Satan also tied Yashin.

06-07 5.90 NHL GPG; NYI 3.02GF, 2.93GA; Yashin 58GP, 18-32-50
06-07 5.90 NHL GPG; OTW 3.51GF, 2.71GA; Spezza 67GP, 34-53-87

Yashin bought out, returns to Russia. Heatley significantly outscores Spezza, Alfredsson ties.

07-08 5.56 NHL GPG; OTW 3.18GF, 3.01GA; Spezza 76GP, 34-58-92

08-09 5.83 NHL GPG; OTW 2.65GF, 2.89GA; Spezza 82GP, 32-41-73

09-10 5.68 NHL GPG; OTW 2.74GF, 2.90GA; Spezza 60GP, 23-34-57

10-11 5.59 NHL GPG; OTW 2.34GF, 3.05GA; Spezza 62GP, 21-36-57

11-12 5.46 NHL GPG; OTW 3.04GF, 2.93GA; Spezza 80GP, 34-50-84

Notice how all of Spezza's best seasons have much higher average GPG? Not to mention defensemen like Gonchar, Chara, and Karlsson to play with or linemates like Heatley and Alfredsson at their very best. Yashin was scoring close to or above PPG when the average league scoring was around 5.25 GPG. Spezza needed it to be closer to 5.6 or 5.7 to put up similar numbers, and on a much stronger offensive team.

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11-23-2012, 08:20 PM
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Barrie22
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ontario
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Originally Posted by I Hate Jay Feaster View Post
What stands out is he was just good. Andreychuk was never great, and was never the best.
Exactly, if he even had 1 award like an art ross he would of been a lock for 1st ballot, andreychuck will get in it will just take him a few tries and maybe a weak class.

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