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Old
11-22-2012, 01:00 AM
  #526
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
The difference between the NHLPA and the NBA and NFL unions is they didnt have Fehr.

Be afraid, be very afraid.
Oh, trust me. I'm afraid and have been since the day Fehr was hired. I just don't see this going much further than a full year, players will be hurting too much and will push Fehr to take whatever deal the owners present. Whether it happens in the next month or in the next year, it will play out that way. There is no way that they will follow through on decertification, that's an empty threat.

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11-22-2012, 01:05 AM
  #527
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
The union will have decertified and Fehr will be bringing antitrust lawsuits long before then.

The nhl as we know it is finished.

Forget about Hall, Hopkins, Yakupov etc, they will all be free agents.
The issue of the NFLPA's decertification was the timing not the actual process.

When you think logically the players would be smart to negotiate this current CBA and then take a vote to decertify immediately after the expiry of the new CBA.

The twisted reality of sports unions is they exist almost solely for the benefit of the owners.

As a player the limited benefit you get to belonging to a union (suspensions appeals, etc.) is offset by the restrictive conditions of a CBA.

Players are much better off going at on their own and letting agents hash out the conditions of their individual employment

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11-22-2012, 01:07 AM
  #528
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Oh, trust me. I'm afraid and have been since the day Fehr was hired. I just don't see this going much further than a full year, players will be hurting too much and will push Fehr to take whatever deal the owners present. Whether it happens in the next month or in the next year, it will play out that way. There is no way that they will follow through on decertification, that's an empty threat.
Maybe, but Ive been asking myself why the players have been dragging their feet for so long, and they havent really changed their stance at all. If anything its gotten worse.

If you can give me an alternate explanation for that Im all ears, but something tells me Fehr has a reason for it, and its most likely going to involve the courts and/or getting rid of the cap.

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11-22-2012, 01:12 AM
  #529
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Maybe, but Ive been asking myself why the players have been dragging their feet for so long, and they havent really changed their stance at all. If anything its gotten worse.

If you can give me an alternate explanation for that Im all ears, but something tells me Fehr has a reason for it, and its most likely going to involve the courts and/or getting rid of the cap.
if this goes to court might as well kiss the 13-14 season goodbye too.

Probably can eliminate a few franchises as well too.



I just want to watch some good hockey on tv.

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Old
11-22-2012, 01:13 AM
  #530
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Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
The issue of the NFLPA's decertification was the timing not the actual process.

When you think logically the players would be smart to negotiate this current CBA and then take a vote to decertify immediately after the expiry of the new CBA.

The twisted reality of sports unions is they exist almost solely for the benefit of the owners.

As a player the limited benefit you get to belonging to a union (suspensions appeals, etc.) is offset by the restrictive conditions of a CBA.

Players are much better off going at on their own and letting agents hash out the conditions of their individual employment
Tell that to Carl Brewer and Ted Lindsay.

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Old
11-22-2012, 01:14 AM
  #531
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Originally Posted by devils4cup View Post
if this goes to court might as well kiss the 13-14 season goodbye too.

Probably can eliminate a few franchises as well too.



I just want to watch some good hockey on tv.
Do you go to Storm games?

Support junior/minor hockey.

You will find you wont miss the nhl much if at all.

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Old
11-22-2012, 01:16 AM
  #532
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Maybe, but Ive been asking myself why the players have been dragging their feet for so long, and they havent really changed their stance at all. If anything its gotten worse.

If you can give me an alternate explanation for that Im all ears, but something tells me Fehr has a reason for it, and its most likely going to involve the courts and/or getting rid of the cap.
The players are using these stall tactics and are dragging their feet because i fully believe that Fehr burned into their brains that the owners will cave if they remain patient and in some ways the owners have since their ridiculous original proposal but what Fehr doesn't realize is that the owners are not going to accept any sort of de-linked proposal and they are not going to pay the players' full salaries so it's a staring contest at this point. It seems that they agree on 50/50 so at least that's something but linkage is the key.
They really aren't that far apart which makes this all the more infuriating.

You might be right that Fehr wants to go after the cap but i don't think he will because he's not stupid, he knows that the owners will never EVER agree to a soft cap/luxury tax system especially after losing a season to get the cap in place.
If he does go after the cap, the players might as well find a new group of investors and start up a new league.

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11-22-2012, 01:16 AM
  #533
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Didn't Linden get absolutely blackballed by the PA last negotiations for trying to get a deal done? I think a lot of players think similarly to Hamrlik, but are scared of Fehr and his inner circle of cronies.

Really, if the offer is 50-50 and the NHL has offered to pay back all money lost because of a 50-50 cut, unless they is something I'm missing I think its just the top 10% (crosby, stamkos, ovechkin) trying to get the best deal for them, and not the entire PA.

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Old
11-22-2012, 01:20 AM
  #534
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I should go to more storm games.

I was originally from Moncton. I was a season ticket holder for the Wildcats and went to many many CIS games as well.

When i moved here i got more into the NHL, got a nice tv and purchased Centre Ice and i enjoyed that tremendously.

I need to go back to my old ways

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11-22-2012, 01:27 AM
  #535
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In the interest of full disclosure, Cole should mention that he is getting two-million in signing bonuses this season. Its not about the money because he gets half his salary even if the entire season is lost! I'm sure he would be singing a different tune if this wasn't the case.

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11-22-2012, 01:27 AM
  #536
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
The players are using these stall tactics and are dragging their feet because i fully believe that Fehr burned into their brains that the owners will cave if they remain patient and in some ways the owners have since their ridiculous original proposal but what Fehr doesn't realize is that the owners are not going to accept any sort of de-linked proposal and they are not going to pay the players' full salaries so it's a staring contest at this point. It seems that they agree on 50/50 so at least that's something but linkage is the key.
They really aren't that far apart which makes this all the more infuriating.

You might be right that Fehr wants to go after the cap but i don't think he will because he's not stupid, he knows that the owners will never EVER agree to a soft cap/luxury tax system especially after losing a season to get the cap in place.
If he does go after the cap, the players might as well find a new group of investors and start up a new league.
Fehr has seen that the owners do have the resolve to shelve a season. They did it not too long ago. I wouldnt push them thinking they wouldnt do it again. There has to be something else going on.

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Old
11-22-2012, 01:37 AM
  #537
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Fehr has seen that the owners do have the resolve to shelve a season. They did it not too long ago. I wouldnt push them thinking they wouldnt do it again. There has to be something else going on.
Possibly, i wouldn't put anything past Fehr.
I think we're all curious as to what Fehr's endgame is because i have no ****ing idea what he is trying to accomplish here.

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11-22-2012, 02:17 AM
  #538
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I'm happy that there's not going to be a season. My evenings are relaxing and my blood pressure is perfect.
Ive been sober for 6 months.

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Old
11-22-2012, 03:03 AM
  #539
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Wow two solid pages of pa' hate
Can't say i blame you guys, in fairness i still think todays proposal was a good one i don't know what happens next or where we go from here i'm not feeling optimistic about fridays talks, yep me not optimistic i've probably been the most optimistic to this point throughout this process
Don Fehr is an evil man

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11-22-2012, 03:09 AM
  #540
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Except hockey is a different product than anything else. How many other products do people have a lifetime, sometimes generational attachment to?

Like Strudwick said on the show today, if Yakupov pots a hatty in the first game of the year, anyone who claimed that they were "done" with the league will come running back.
That's the problem, it's not a product unlike anything else and it's an absolute mistake to think otherwise.

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Old
11-22-2012, 03:12 AM
  #541
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I don't doubt that Fehr would like to go after the cap if he could but you'd have to think the 3rd liner and fringe type players wouldn't let it go that far.

Even one season is a significant portion of their career earnings that I doubt they'll be too eager to pass up.

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Old
11-22-2012, 07:40 AM
  #542
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Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
The issue of the NFLPA's decertification was the timing not the actual process.

When you think logically the players would be smart to negotiate this current CBA and then take a vote to decertify immediately after the expiry of the new CBA.

The twisted reality of sports unions is they exist almost solely for the benefit of the owners.

As a player the limited benefit you get to belonging to a union (suspensions appeals, etc.) is offset by the restrictive conditions of a CBA.

Players are much better off going at on their own and letting agents hash out the conditions of their individual employment
If you are Sidney Crosby, I completely agree. Do you think this is true for Shawn Horcoff? He would not have a guaranteed contract so would the Oilers have been content paying him $6.5M for what he brought to the table last year?

The Wild West would benefit the top end players at the expense of the vast majority.

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Old
11-22-2012, 08:23 AM
  #543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
The issue of the NFLPA's decertification was the timing not the actual process.

When you think logically the players would be smart to negotiate this current CBA and then take a vote to decertify immediately after the expiry of the new CBA.

The twisted reality of sports unions is they exist almost solely for the benefit of the owners.

As a player the limited benefit you get to belonging to a union (suspensions appeals, etc.) is offset by the restrictive conditions of a CBA.

Players are much better off going at on their own and letting agents hash out the conditions of their individual employment
I know the first thing I always think when I look at a NHLPA player driving by in their Hotwheels probably on their way to the soup kitchens, is how hard they're done by . Must be terrible.

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Old
11-22-2012, 09:04 AM
  #544
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Originally Posted by RipsADrive View Post
I don't doubt that Fehr would like to go after the cap if he could but you'd have to think the 3rd liner and fringe type players wouldn't let it go that far.

Even one season is a significant portion of their career earnings that I doubt they'll be too eager to pass up.
I think they let it get that far when they hired the soulless ghoul in the first place. They must have known what they were getting into. They wanted this in fact.

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11-22-2012, 09:33 AM
  #545
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That's the problem, it's not a product unlike anything else and it's an absolute mistake to think otherwise.
I guess we'll agree to disagree on this one. I guess I'm having trouble thinking of another product that many are practically trained from birth to enjoy and cheer for. It will obviously be different for some American markets, but hockey is ingrained too deeply in Canadians, and especially Edmontonians for anyone's petty "I'm done" declaration to actually take hold.

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11-22-2012, 10:05 AM
  #546
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I guess we'll agree to disagree on this one. I guess I'm having trouble thinking of another product that many are practically trained from birth to enjoy and cheer for. It will obviously be different for some American markets, but hockey is ingrained too deeply in Canadians, and especially Edmontonians for anyone's petty "I'm done" declaration to actually take hold.
Not sure why any fans reaction or preference would be considered "petty". You might think it knee jerk which is fine but nothing wrong with someone wanting to choose abstinence.

Also, consider that theres varying degrees of support. The labor impasses of 94, 2004, and now, have taught me to care less about the NHL, and its players, and this has impacted how I support the product. If the game happens to be televized on a channel I get anyway I watch. I don't pay extra for anything, don't buy tickets, and don't buy merchandise from source. This IS changed behavior. A lot of fans, and probably more than gets recognized, have changed their behavior. But with fans that tune out the product being somewhat drowned out by new fans to the game. Which happens in Canada anyway because we are in the middle of an unprecedented boom in population from combined immigration and increase in birth rates.

But interestingly in a country with nearly twice the population we had in the 60's or 70's roughly the same amount of Canadians are going to NHL games in respective NHL cities. This of course being limited by rink capacity but look at it this way. In 1970 17K Canucks fans would be going to games. Would 34-40K Vancouver fans be going to every homegame today if capacity allowed? In a metropolitan area that has MORE than doubled in population?

A growing segment of Canadians have become less interested in actually attending NHL games. This maybe a byproduct of hdtv and surround systems and beer fridges simply offering a better viewing experience. Or that the degree of peoples connection has been reduced to a tenuous and fleeting stop on a channel in a hundreds of channels universe. With the NHL hanging by a thread for many who are increasingly experiencing simply better, and varied, entertainment.

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Old
11-22-2012, 10:18 AM
  #547
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It's not just those teams that are losing money. Ottawa and Calgary are barely turning a profit ($2.8M and $1.1M respectively) Bump the cap/floor up a couple million (as happened this summer) and drop the loonie a couple of cents and they are quickly in the red.

Team that are losing money according to Forbes (numbers that the PA has NOT challenged):

Phoenix, Columbus, Tampa Bay, Anaheim, NY Islanders, San Jose, Washington, Nashville, Florida, New Jersey, Minnesota, Buffalo, Winnipeg, Carolina, St Louis, LA, Dallas, and Pittsburgh.

That's quite the list.

Teams making less than $5M profit: Calgary, Boston, Ottawa, and Philadelphia.

Of the 12 teams in the black, Toronto and Montreal combined make more than the other 10 combined. Only Toronto, Montreal, NY Rangers, Vancouver, Edmonton, and Detroit show profits of more than $10M.

I'm sorry - but this is a broken system. Just 7 years ago we had a floor of $23M and a cap of $39M. The freaking floor is not almost 50% higher than the CAP was. That is nuts. It is not sustainable.
Lots of those teams that lost money was either through their own stupidity I.E. Buffalo or the team is in a poor market I.E. Phoenix
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Actually the owners cancelled a season to get a cap. The owners wanted a fixed cap, it's the PA in 2005 that wanted a % of HRR.
I thought it was the other way around and if the owners would've accepted the players last offer last time that the cap would've been substantial less than it is now.

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11-22-2012, 10:32 AM
  #548
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Wow two solid pages of pa' hate
Can't say i blame you guys, in fairness i still think todays proposal was a good one i don't know what happens next or where we go from here i'm not feeling optimistic about fridays talks, yep me not optimistic i've probably been the most optimistic to this point throughout this process
Don Fehr is an evil man
I thought it looked alright as a starting point. Then I crunched the numbers, added in the delinkage and presto! It was almost the same offer they've been pushing for 2 months. I wonder if the PA realizes the league owns calculators?

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11-22-2012, 10:54 AM
  #549
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I thought it looked alright as a starting point. Then I crunched the numbers, added in the delinkage and presto! It was almost the same offer they've been pushing for 2 months. I wonder if the PA realizes the league owns calculators?
They seemed to have figured out that the media will give them more positive press if they at least make it look like they are trying. Change the wording around a bit and pretend its a new thoughtful proposal. Really all they are doing is switching from the treadmill to the stationary bike with this proposal. It isn't actually going anywhere.

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11-22-2012, 11:23 AM
  #550
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I know the first thing I always think when I look at a NHLPA player driving by in their Hotwheels probably on their way to the soup kitchens, is how hard they're done by . Must be terrible.
You're largely missing the point

Put every player on the street and have them negotiate with each team via an agent and see what kind of deals they end up with.

Better or worse??

That's my point the collective bargaining is for the owners benefit in professional sports.

What are the players gaining from it?

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