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Old
11-21-2012, 08:52 PM
  #26
Jax Teller
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I'm a Leafs fan and I agree with Shark fans saying one year isn't good enough to proclaim Lupul a PPG player going forward and more valuable than Pavekski.

If it was a 1 for 1 swap I'd probably do it in most situations. Although, there is a lockout for the foreseeable future and a suprisingly high # of Pavelski-like centers available in free agency(could change) some better, some worse. I'd prefer to keep the high-end asset(Lupul) and gain another for free(Weiss, Zajac or Roy)

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Old
11-21-2012, 09:26 PM
  #27
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have to say after all those luongo threads I find this thread extremely cheery

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Old
11-21-2012, 09:33 PM
  #28
JS19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey 4 Life View Post
The sharks have very solid center depth where as the Leafs are strong on the wing, I think this deal could make sense.

To

SJS
Lupul
Bozak/macarthur
Colborne/Ashton/Percy/Blacker
2014 1st

Toronto
Ryan clowe
Joe pavelski

This deal only works if a contract extension can be negotiated with Lupul prior to the deal. Let me know what both fan bases think?
Lolno, end of story.

If we're offering Clowe and Pavelski, we want an to upgrade our package by basing the deal around Kessel. That's the ugly truth.

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Old
11-21-2012, 09:36 PM
  #29
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If it's 2013 pick, and top 10, probably. Otherwise no. Lupul<<Pavelski, and that's if Lupul's season isn't a fluke, not very durable, and weak defensively. And some guys who players of similar quality can be commonly found as free agents.

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Old
11-21-2012, 09:36 PM
  #30
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From a sharks perspepective I gotta say no

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Old
11-21-2012, 09:38 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birddog View Post
Lupul is the best player in the deal and the 2014 first might not be far behind. Clowe is 30, a UFA not much value there. Pavelski is a small number 2 not the number on eToronto needs.
Lupul better than Pavelski? By what measured? Lupul has 1 season that bests Pavelski's best point season, and beat him by 1 point (67 versus 66). Pavelski has a career .71 ppg versus Lupul's .63. Add to that Pavelski is one of the best face-off men in the league and is excellent defensively (career +39 versus Lupul's carrer -52). Delete from that the fact that Lupul is extremely injury prone (averaged 36 games played/season over the past 4 years, Pavelski averaged 76 - more than 2x), and I think it is quite clear who the better player is. Pavelski is also the younger player.

The only real knocks on Pavelski are that he is not very fast and that he is a free agent after the '13-'14 season.

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Old
11-21-2012, 09:46 PM
  #32
Ricky Bobby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey 4 Life View Post
The sharks have very solid center depth where as the Leafs are strong on the wing, I think this deal could make sense.

To

SJS
Lupul
Bozak/macarthur
Colborne/Ashton/Percy/Blacker
2014 1st

Toronto
Ryan clowe
Joe pavelski

This deal only works if a contract extension can be negotiated with Lupul prior to the deal. Let me know what both fan bases think?
So Toronto as a non-contending team trades a potential lottery pick, a bunch of quality prospects and some very good wingers for:

-1 year of Clowe who is already slowing down and has a contract that expires after the end of the year
and
-Pavelski who is a very good # 2 center but also not the calibar of player who will lead them anywhere as the top center in the playoff. He also only has 2 years left on his contract

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Old
11-21-2012, 10:16 PM
  #33
Vankiller Whale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
So Toronto as a non-contending team trades a potential lottery pick, a bunch of quality prospects and some very good wingers for:

-1 year of Clowe who is already slowing down and has a contract that expires after the end of the year
and
-Pavelski who is a very good # 2 center but also not the calibar of player who will lead them anywhere as the top center in the playoff. He also only has 2 years left on his contract
Lupul has only one year and Bozak/Macarthur also only have one year. You'd be trading one decent prospect and a 1st that is two years away.

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Old
11-21-2012, 10:27 PM
  #34
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Pass from leafs..

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Old
11-21-2012, 11:37 PM
  #35
TheJuxtaposer
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So we trade a Selke-caliber forward for the one of the worst defensive forwards in the league? There is no way in hell I'd ever consider that.

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Old
11-22-2012, 12:06 AM
  #36
marty111
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Originally Posted by AbsolonMoreau View Post
And Leafs fans wonder why they are routinely looked down upon on the trade forum. In no way is Lupul better than Pavelski basing it on just one season. Pavelski is a much better defensive player, can play center or wing. Then to say that Clowe isn't worth either of the players is straight absurd, the Sharks are giving up the two best players in this deal.
There is no way Clowe is a better player than Lupul. Come on.

Pavelski
Lupul
Clowe
Bozak/MacA

+ a prospect and a 1st from the Leafs?

Yikes. I don't do that trade from Toronto's perspective until the team is improving. That 1st could be the best asset in the whole deal, who knows.

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Old
11-22-2012, 08:08 AM
  #37
BonMorrison
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Do you guys even watch Pavelski play? I'm a Leafs fan and I can honestly say that I would take Pavelski over Lupul a thousand times. Not only does he put up great numbers and can play top line duty but he plays almost selke-worthy defense. Lupul is one of the worst defensive forwards in the league that puts up numbers. And to counter act any lost production that we'd lose from Lupul, we also get Clowe. I don't see how this is a debate.

Oh, and Pavelski and Kessel played on the same line in the Olympics so they know how to play with each other.

Leafs assuming that it's MacArthur going the other way (rather than Bozak).

Van Riemsdyk - Pavelski - Kessel
Clowe - Grabovski - Kadri
Kulemin - Bozak - Frattin

That line-up looks infinitely better than this:

Lupul - Bozak - Kessel
Van Riemsdyk - Grabovski - Kulemin
MacArthur - McClement - Frattin

Not only do we gain even more size on the wing, we lose MacArthur to open a spot for Kadri, we have a great 1 - 2 - 3 punch down the center with Pavelski/Grabovski/Bozak. We let Kulemin play to his strengths and play shutdown on the third line with another big body in Frattin. And Bozak drops and plays to his strengths on the third line. We lose Colborne, big deal. The 1st round pick is the only thing I'd be iffy on.

That all being said, SJ has no reason to do this, I just think that Leaf fans should stop underselling how good Pavelski is.

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Old
11-22-2012, 08:31 AM
  #38
Mystifo
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My problem is do you really think Pavelski is the first line C for us? I mean sure he is a great 2nd line C but is he a first line C? Seems to me he is more or less another Dave Krejci. 1B 2A type guy. Sharks fans seem to hate the deal so here is my revised of it.




Clowe
Pavelski




Lupul (Resigned.)
Kadri
1st 2014
One of Percy, Finn, McKegg, Biggs


Kadri holds far more upside than MacA and fits what the Sharks lack in their top 6 Speed.
Percy Finn Mckegg and Biggs are all solid B prospects all of them with top 6/top 4 potential.

The 1st is a first.

And well Lupul is Lupul.

If they really want a C to replenish Depth then Bozak can be sent over but I doubt he would be an upgrade over SJS C's.


To my fellow leaf fans I know we should not trade our first but I am basing this off the fact Lou will land in Toronto.

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Old
11-22-2012, 08:33 AM
  #39
BonMorrison
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I've been preaching for a while that the Leafs do not need a bonified #1 center. They need a productive center that is defensively strong that can play on the top line. Pavelski fits this bill perfectly. Boston won the cup with Krejci - Bergeron down the center, you don't need a bonfied #1 to be a winner. Having a depth of Pavelski - Grabovski - Bozak would do wonders for our team.

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Old
11-22-2012, 08:34 AM
  #40
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I vote for a permanent ban on all Leafs/Sharks proposals.

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Old
11-22-2012, 08:38 AM
  #41
Mystifo
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I vote for a permanent ban on all Leafs/Sharks proposals.
Listen people have been asking for this on Lou proposals... They are still kicking.

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Old
11-22-2012, 08:47 AM
  #42
Bender
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have to say after all those luongo threads I find this thread extremely cheery
have to say after all those Stastny threads I find this thread extremely cheery

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Old
11-22-2012, 08:55 AM
  #43
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Toronto hasn't made the playoffs since the last lockout. They trade another 1st and his last name is not Crosby or Giroux I am outta here

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Old
11-22-2012, 09:10 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Masked Superstar View Post
Toronto hasn't made the playoffs since the last lockout. They trade another 1st and his last name is not Crosby or Giroux I am outta here
The love affair with our first rounder has to stop, the leafs have been building for the last 4 years and stockpiling prospects and in my opinion if burke could swing a deal for clowe and pavelski the first would no longer be an issue. Also so many leaf fans believe that we need a top ten center to get anywhere in this league, well that's false. As was said earlier the leafs need a defensively sound center who can put up 60 points as well as some grit in clowe. Sanjose fans may not want this trade but its not like the value isnt there and it does address there needs as well. Maybe the deal could be tweaked to give up a slightly better package from the leafs but when it comes right down to it clowe and pavelski are exactly what toronto needs if sanjose wanted to move them and reshape there top six. Finally with this trade you still have assets in bozak,franson,blacker etc you could move for lou. tell me this line up isnt better.

JVR Pavs Kessel
Clowe Grabs Kadri
Kulemin Mcclement Frattin
Komarov steckle Brown

Gunnar Phaneuf
Liles Komisarek
Holzer Gardiner

Lou
Reims

Excuse the spelling in the names had to type this fast.

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Old
11-22-2012, 09:51 AM
  #45
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No from the Leafs.. Clowe's play is starting to regress. He is a 30 year old and will be a UFA after the year. He dosn't hold much value.

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Old
11-22-2012, 10:02 AM
  #46
Ricky Bobby
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Lupul has only one year and Bozak/Macarthur also only have one year. You'd be trading one decent prospect and a 1st that is two years away.
I still wouldn't do it.

That 1st still has the potential to be a lottery pick in 2014.

To another team the value might be there but for a team like the Leafs it doesn't make sense. I'd honestly rather trade Lupul, Bozak, CMac to stock up on more futures and then replace those players in the lineup with UFAs this summer.

Clowe although currently valuable is already 30, has never been noted as being a great skater and plays an abbrassive style that leads to a lot of injuries. I really don't want the Leafs to be the team that overpays him on a multi-year UFA deal. He is a win-now player but in only a couple short years I could see him being a shadow of himself.

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Old
11-22-2012, 10:04 AM
  #47
Ricky Bobby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey 4 Life View Post
The love affair with our first rounder has to stop, the leafs have been building for the last 4 years and stockpiling prospects and in my opinion if burke could swing a deal for clowe and pavelski the first would no longer be an issue. Also so many leaf fans believe that we need a top ten center to get anywhere in this league, well that's false. As was said earlier the leafs need a defensively sound center who can put up 60 points as well as some grit in clowe. Sanjose fans may not want this trade but its not like the value isnt there and it does address there needs as well. Maybe the deal could be tweaked to give up a slightly better package from the leafs but when it comes right down to it clowe and pavelski are exactly what toronto needs if sanjose wanted to move them and reshape there top six. Finally with this trade you still have assets in bozak,franson,blacker etc you could move for lou. tell me this line up isnt better.

JVR Pavs Kessel
Clowe Grabs Kadri
Kulemin Mcclement Frattin
Komarov steckle Brown

Gunnar Phaneuf
Liles Komisarek
Holzer Gardiner

Lou
Reims

Excuse the spelling in the names had to type this fast.
How did we acquire Luongo if we used all of our assets to acquire Pavelski?

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Old
11-22-2012, 10:07 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
How did we acquire Luongo if we used all of our assets to acquire Pavelski?
" Finally with this trade you still have assets in bozak,franson,blacker etc you could move for lou. tell me this line up isnt better." You didnt read the full post or didnt read it well enough thats the problem.

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Old
11-22-2012, 10:12 AM
  #49
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I still wouldn't do it.

That 1st still has the potential to be a lottery pick in 2014.

To another team the value might be there but for a team like the Leafs it doesn't make sense. I'd honestly rather trade Lupul, Bozak, CMac to stock up on more futures and then replace those players in the lineup with UFAs this summer.

Clowe although currently valuable is already 30, has never been noted as being a great skater and plays an abbrassive style that leads to a lot of injuries. I really don't want the Leafs to be the team that overpays him on a multi-year UFA deal. He is a win-now player but in only a couple short years I could see him being a shadow of himself.
Well that's your opinion in regards to clowe. In regards to the draft picks for roster players how long would you like this team to keep losing? I proposed the pick in 2014 because I believe toronto should be a playoff team by then with the strong ufa class and our young guys getting older and better. With the way you want to go the team will be in a perpetual rebuild. A decision has to be made on wether or not this core we have is good enough and we want to add to it or it's not good enough and we want to ship it out for futures. I personally believe we need to add to our core but thats just my opinion.

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Old
11-22-2012, 11:04 AM
  #50
Ricky Bobby
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" Finally with this trade you still have assets in bozak,franson,blacker etc you could move for lou. tell me this line up isnt better." You didnt read the full post or didnt read it well enough thats the problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey 4 Life View Post
Well that's your opinion in regards to clowe. In regards to the draft picks for roster players how long would you like this team to keep losing? I proposed the pick in 2014 because I believe toronto should be a playoff team by then with the strong ufa class and our young guys getting older and better. With the way you want to go the team will be in a perpetual rebuild. A decision has to be made on wether or not this core we have is good enough and we want to add to it or it's not good enough and we want to ship it out for futures. I personally believe we need to add to our core but thats just my opinion.
That is a big assumption that you could obtain Luongo for those pieces.

Are the Leafs better with the pieces you added absolutely. But they're still closer to a lottery team then a cup contending team. I just don't see Pavelski as being that piece to take us to the next level because he isn't the number # 1 center we need and he's also undersized. Plus he could just walk after next season. I'm not completely against the Leafs trading 1st rounders but considering the potential for the Leafs to still suck it better be for a player with more then 2 years term left on his contract (or that 1st has to be conditional).

Even if you add Pavelski we still lack a # 1 center and should one become available now we don't have any assets to acquire that center.

Next off-season is when I think the Leafs should be looking to go all-in on a center whether it be offering huge money to Getzlaf (with Zajac, Weiss, Roy as backup plans) or trading for a true # 1.

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