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Is Alfie a HOF'er?

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Old
11-22-2011, 01:18 PM
  #76
overpass
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Alfredsson spent much of the 2006-07 and 2008-09 regular seasons with Mike Fisher, not Spezza and Heatley.

It helped all three of them to play together. But I think Spezza and Heatley in particular could be a bit predictable on their own, and teams caught on over time. Alfredsson provided more versatility to the line and made them a lot harder to stop.

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11-22-2011, 01:28 PM
  #77
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as a fellow swede i gotta say no

yes he was a very good player and for a long time too, and his compiled stats looks good on a paper, but a hof should be about standout players and he wasn't really a player that stood out from the rest

like a sergei makarov, eric lindros or pavel bure

he wouldn't be the worst player in the hall as clark gillies already there but that's not a very good argument
Lindros and Bure will get in, maybe Makarov too. In time, just like Alfie will not be a 1st ballot HOFer, but he will get in.

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11-22-2011, 01:36 PM
  #78
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We also have to remember that it is the Hockey Hall of Fame, not the NHL Hall of Fame and if memory serves me he was a huge cog in Sweden winning in 06. That will help him no doubt.

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11-23-2011, 12:05 AM
  #79
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We also have to remember that it is the Hockey Hall of Fame, not the NHL Hall of Fame and if memory serves me he was a huge cog in Sweden winning in 06. That will help him no doubt.
Save from the exceptions Kharlamov, Tretiak and Fetisov it is definitely the NHL Hall of Fame. Or possibly the 'Hockey on North American Ice Hall of Fame'. Like it or not but the committee doesn't give a damn about European hockey.

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11-21-2012, 04:42 PM
  #80
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Busting open an old thread. Thought it might be relevant with the potential of the whole NHL season wiped out (thanks Fehr and Bettman). The reason I say this is becasue Alfredsson is one player many believe won't play in the NHL again, especially if there is a year long lockout.

My main thing about him is how he peaked. He had that one big year in 2006 with 103 points. He was a 2nd team all-star but never reached that again and never had more than 89 points again. If you want him to be inducted the Ron Francis route he needs better longevity and more seasons where he was in the NHL radar. A Cup would have helped him immensely as well but as has been documented before he was often shoddy in the postseason on some very good Ottawa teams. I would be reluctant to induct him.

One final thing, the Alfredsson/Perreault comparisons shouldn't be there. Watch Perreault in the 1976 Canada Cup and on that star studded line up he was probably Canada's best forward. He was flying all over the ice and that's basically what he did in the NHL. He controlled the game when he played and he was on a different level than Alfredsson.

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11-21-2012, 09:53 PM
  #81
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Alfredsson would go in my HOF but he's not a HOFer.

His career's been overstated because he played in a Canadian market leading to him being more of a star than he is, he was involved in a tonne of games against the Leafs as well (where he played well). If Alfie played most of his career in SJ for example then would we be having this discussion? He's a slight tier above a Patrick Marleau or Milan Hejduk, fantastic hockey players but they'll never be in the HOF. Maybe it's because they played their peaks in dead puck eras and not their fault but too many 90s stars that stick out for them to get in.

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11-21-2012, 10:08 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by QuietCompany View Post
Alfredsson would go in my HOF but he's not a HOFer.

His career's been overstated because he played in a Canadian market leading to him being more of a star than he is, he was involved in a tonne of games against the Leafs as well (where he played well). If Alfie played most of his career in SJ for example then would we be having this discussion? He's a slight tier above a Patrick Marleau or Milan Hejduk, fantastic hockey players but they'll never be in the HOF. Maybe it's because they played their peaks in dead puck eras and not their fault but too many 90s stars that stick out for them to get in.
I'm a Leafs fan and I think Alfie is in more then just a "slight tier" above Marleau or Hejduk...

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11-21-2012, 10:12 PM
  #83
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Alfredsson is the 5th leading scorer since 1996-97, the start of the dead puck era. And he's closer to #1 than he is to #6:

1. Jagr 1115
2. Thornton 1078
3. Iginla 1073
4. Selanne 1064
5. Alfredsson 1021
6. Hossa 904
7. Recchi 898
8. Sakic 895
9. Elias 894
10. Lidstrom 892

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Add in his two-way game and his "face of a franchise" status, and I'd induct him.

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Old
11-21-2012, 10:14 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by QuietCompany View Post
Alfredsson would go in my HOF but he's not a HOFer.

His career's been overstated because he played in a Canadian market leading to him being more of a star than he is, he was involved in a tonne of games against the Leafs as well (where he played well). If Alfie played most of his career in SJ for example then would we be having this discussion? He's a slight tier above a Patrick Marleau or Milan Hejduk, fantastic hockey players but they'll never be in the HOF. Maybe it's because they played their peaks in dead puck eras and not their fault but too many 90s stars that stick out for them to get in.
I think that's selling Alfredsson short. I'm not completely sold on him being a HOFer, but it's tough to ignore someone who's #3 in scoring over an entire decade.

Alfredsson (like Sundin and Gartner, though not to the same extent) was able to score at a high level very consistently - he has as many 70 point seasons as Hejduk and Marleau do combined. Also true for 60 point seasons.

Alfredsson had the best offensive peak (statistically he has three of the five best seasons between these three players - it's worth mentioning that he required stellar linemates to maximize his production, but one can certainly say the same about Hejduk (playing 20 minutes per game with peak Forsberg in 2003). He was clearly a better defensive player than Hejduk, and was also superior to Marleau. None of these three were great playoff performers, but Alfredsson averaged more goals, assists and (obviously) points per game than the other two.

I don't think that finishing 3rd in scoring over the course of the decade should automatically equate to induction - though Alfredsson certainly helps his case by combining that with good two-way play, a decent (though not great) playoff resume and he'll get some credit for being the cornerstone of the Senators. Out of curiosity, have any players who finished third (or higher) in scoring for an entire decade not earned a spot in the Hall?

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11-21-2012, 10:33 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
I don't think that finishing 3rd in scoring over the course of the decade should automatically equate to induction - though Alfredsson certainly helps his case by combining that with good two-way play, a decent (though not great) playoff resume and he'll get some credit for being the cornerstone of the Senators. Out of curiosity, have any players who finished third (or higher) in scoring for an entire decade not earned a spot in the Hall?
By my preferred way of looking at things (give the season to second half/playoffs), Alfredsson finished 4th in his decade. (He's third if you look at 2000-01 to 2009-10). Anyway, here are the top 5 scorers by decade the way I look at it.

2000-2009

1. Joe Thornton 794
2. Jaromir Jagr 737
3. Jarome Iginla 718
4. Daniel Alfredsson 711
5. Marian Hossa 688

1990 - 1999

1. Wayne Gretzky 1020
2. Adam Oates 927
3. Steve Yzerman 918
4. Joe Sakic 917
5. Brett Hull 896

1980-1989

1. Wayne Gretzky 1837
2. Peter Stastny 986
3. Marcel Dionne 980
4. Jari Kurri 950
5. Denis Savard 933

1970-1979

1. Phil Esposito 1108
2. Bobby Clarke 868
3. Jean Ratelle 862
4. Guy Lafleur 816
5. Marcel Dionne 791

1960-1969

1. Bobby Hull 800
2. Gordie Howe 782
3. Stan Mikita 767
4. Norm Ullman 673
5. Jean Beliveau 658

1950-1959

1. Gordie Howe 801
2. Bill Lindsay 609
3. Maurice Richard 582
4. Bert Olmstead 476
5. Bernard Geoffrion 454

1940-1949

1. Doug Bentley 441
2. Toe Blake 422
3. Bill Cowley 399
4. Elmer Lach 399
5. Maurice Richard 348

1930-1939

1. Nels Stewart 376
2. Marty Barry 372
3. Busher Jackson 351
4. Charlie Conacher 347
5. Cooney Weiland 315

1920-1929

1. Cy Denneny 265
2. Babe Dye 248
3. Reg Noble 196
4. Howie Morenz 191
5. Frank Nighbor 188

Prior to the current decade, everyone who has finished top 5 in points for a decade has been enshrined in the HHOF.

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Old
11-21-2012, 11:04 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
By my preferred way of looking at things (give the season to second half/playoffs), Alfredsson finished 4th in his decade. (He's third if you look at 2000-01 to 2009-10).
I was looking at 1999-2000 to 2009-2010 (which covers eleven years but ten seasons for obvious reasons) - regardless of how we define Alfredsson's prime, it certainly puts him in good company, especially since he has solid intangibles to complement his offensive stats.

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11-21-2012, 11:33 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Alfredsson is the 5th leading scorer since 1996-97, the start of the dead puck era. And he's closer to #1 than he is to #6:

1. Jagr 1115
2. Thornton 1078
3. Iginla 1073
4. Selanne 1064
5. Alfredsson 1021
6. Hossa 904
7. Recchi 898
8. Sakic 895
9. Elias 894
10. Lidstrom 892

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Add in his two-way game and his "face of a franchise" status, and I'd induct him.
From a point total perspective yes. But there really isnt that much of a difference between his career and Hossa's. Jagr, Iginla, Thornton, and Selanne are all locks while Alfreddson and Hossa are closer to borderline.

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11-22-2012, 12:01 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Alfredsson is the 5th leading scorer since 1996-97, the start of the dead puck era. And he's closer to #1 than he is to #6:

1. Jagr 1115
2. Thornton 1078
3. Iginla 1073
4. Selanne 1064
5. Alfredsson 1021
6. Hossa 904
7. Recchi 898
8. Sakic 895
9. Elias 894
10. Lidstrom 892

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Add in his two-way game and his "face of a franchise" status, and I'd induct him.
Thanks for saving me the time and fully agree.

I doubt that any player who ranks 5th in points against his peers over that long period of time is not in the Hall. And that's before his other attributes that you alluded to.

To me he is the Slightly better Swedish version of Rick Middleton.

I think some people need to adjust their thinking on his only 100 point season, and for other players as well in the lower scoring era.

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Old
11-22-2012, 12:10 AM
  #89
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Wow, Recchi is 7th in point in the last 16 years... that doesn't even include his real prime!

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11-22-2012, 06:04 AM
  #90
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To play Devil's Advocate, I would claim that basing an argument on what player X did in decade Y can create somewhat of an artificial selection. It's all well and good that Alfredsson was 3rd or 4th in scoring during the '00s, but if you take a 10 (well, 9) season span from his entry into the league until the 2004-05 lockout, he's 24th in scoring. From 2004-05 to the present he is 16th in scoring. Not bad at all, that should go without saying, but it shows his relative strength a little more clearly.

In the early '00s a bunch of the league's stars of the '90s retired or fell off in production (chief among them, Gretzky and Lemieux) and that level of talent really wasn't replaced until after the lockout when the likes of Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, and Stamkos appeared. The end result is that Alfredsson's scoring rank in the '00s is misleading, and shows how artificial a criteria like that can be.

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11-22-2012, 10:18 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Alfredsson is the 5th leading scorer since 1996-97, the start of the dead puck era. And he's closer to #1 than he is to #6:

1. Jagr 1115
2. Thornton 1078
3. Iginla 1073
4. Selanne 1064
5. Alfredsson 1021
6. Hossa 904
7. Recchi 898
8. Sakic 895
9. Elias 894
10. Lidstrom 892

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Add in his two-way game and his "face of a franchise" status, and I'd induct him.
Yeah, but there's an asterisk to go along with most of the other names as to why they're not significantly ahead of Alfredsson.

1. Jagr missed three seasons
2. Thornton missed one season and was an infamously slow career starter
4. Selanne played four seasons on a bad leg before getting surgery
6. Hossa missed two seasons
7. Recchi missed one season and peaked prior to the sample
8. Sakic missed three seasons
10. Lidstrom is a defenseman


I really don't see it. I mean, we can run a spreadsheet of Keith Tkachuk's best stretch and it's going to make him look like the third-best goal scorer of his era to Jagr and Selanne. Doesn't mean it's necessarily true.

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11-22-2012, 10:30 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Yeah, but there's an asterisk to go along with most of the other names as to why they're not significantly ahead of Alfredsson.

1. Jagr missed three seasons
2. Thornton missed one season and was an infamously slow career starter
4. Selanne played four seasons on a bad leg before getting surgery
6. Hossa missed two seasons
7. Recchi missed one season and peaked prior to the sample
8. Sakic missed three seasons
10. Lidstrom is a defenseman


I really don't see it. I mean, we can run a spreadsheet of Keith Tkachuk's best stretch and it's going to make him look like the third-best goal scorer of his era to Jagr and Selanne. Doesn't mean it's necessarily true.
This is not a valid argument. We saw that in the Markus Naslund is the greatest ever thread.

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11-22-2012, 10:35 AM
  #93
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This is not a valid argument. We saw that in the Markus Naslund is the greatest ever thread.
Neither of your sentences make sense to me. How is it not valid to point out that if you isolate only the years of one person's career, you're knee-capping every player who isn't the same exact age?

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11-22-2012, 10:41 AM
  #94
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It's the hockey hall of fame, not just the NHL hall of fame.

As such I think his gold medal at the Turin Games and his SEL championship add to his credentials. He also captained a team to the President's Trophy and to the Prince of Wales Trophy.

He had the most goals of the 2005 playoffs (SEL). He had the most goals and points in the 2007 playoffs (NHL).

He holds most offensive records for the Sens as well as a couple with Frolunda.

With a 1082 points, he is the highest scoring player of his draft year, ahead of Patrick Elias who has 894.

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11-22-2012, 10:51 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Yeah, but there's an asterisk to go along with most of the other names as to why they're not significantly ahead of Alfredsson.

1. Jagr missed three seasons
2. Thornton missed one season and was an infamously slow career starter
4. Selanne played four seasons on a bad leg before getting surgery
6. Hossa missed two seasons
7. Recchi missed one season and peaked prior to the sample
8. Sakic missed three seasons
10. Lidstrom is a defenseman


I really don't see it. I mean, we can run a spreadsheet of Keith Tkachuk's best stretch and it's going to make him look like the third-best goal scorer of his era to Jagr and Selanne. Doesn't mean it's necessarily true.
actually, significantly better than selanne...

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11-22-2012, 11:02 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Alfredsson is the 5th leading scorer since 1996-97, the start of the dead puck era. And he's closer to #1 than he is to #6:

1. Jagr 1115
2. Thornton 1078
3. Iginla 1073
4. Selanne 1064
5. Alfredsson 1021
6. Hossa 904
7. Recchi 898
8. Sakic 895
9. Elias 894
10. Lidstrom 892

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Add in his two-way game and his "face of a franchise" status, and I'd induct him.
five years ago, i would have (and did) pushed for alfredsson. maybe even three years ago.

now, i'm not so sure.

five years ago, with him leading the sens' finals run fresh in our memories, we either thought he'd turned a corner playoff-wise, or kind of forgot about all of the sens' miserable playoff runs previous to '07. even three years ago, it seemed like there was more where '07 alfredsson came from.

but then he fell back to being a PPG scorer, never made it out of the first round again, and then a couple of years ago his play fell off a cliff.

looking back at his whole career, what i thought was going to get him in-- the longtime pillar of the franchise thing, the heart and soul thing, and the best player on a team that went to the finals thing-- don't seem as impressive. my argument for him then would have been the patrik elias argument. now i think the best argument for alfredsson is the gartner argument-- and i don't think that aflredsson can fake his way into the HHOF with longevity and consistency the way gartner did because his era didn't facilitate the monster career numbers.

now i'd sooner induct alffie than gartner, and he certainly peaked higher. but after the one year when he was a top five scorer, he just has less than a handful of finishes where he was barely top ten. very gartner-esque. add to that the very gartner-esque playoff record (the '07 run excepted), and i don't know that i could put him above elias, who for me is something a cut-off guy for that era.

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11-22-2012, 11:03 AM
  #97
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alf

small correction here (1996 should be included)

Alfredsson is the 3rd leading scorer since 1995-96, the start of the dead puck era.

1. Jagr 1264
2. Selanne 1172
3. Alfredsson 1082
4. Thornton 1078
5. Iginla 1073
6. Sakic 1015
7. Recchi 976
8. Sundin 968
9. Lidstrom 959
10. Kariya 950

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

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11-22-2012, 11:08 AM
  #98
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small correction here (1996 should be included)

Alfredsson is the 3rd leading scorer since 1995-96, the start of the dead puck era.

1. Jagr 1264
2. Selanne 1172
3. Alfredsson 1082
4. Thornton 1078
5. Iginla 1073
6. Sakic 1015
7. Recchi 976
8. Sundin 968
9. Lidstrom 959
10. Kariya 950

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points
1995-96 was a high scoring year, higher than 1994-95. If you're going back that far, you should include 1994-95 and possibly even 1993-94.



Edit: Ah I see, you're including 1995-96 because that's the first year of Alfredsson's career. I prefer not to look at where a player placed over his whole career since so few careers perfectly overlap. I think a wider timeframe might be best. See next post.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 11-22-2012 at 11:14 AM.
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Old
11-22-2012, 11:13 AM
  #99
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Since 1993-94 (the first year that scoring really started to decline, but not straight up dead puck), here are the leading scorers:

1. Jagr 1433
2. Selanne 1273
3. Sakic 1169
4. Recchi 1131
5. Sundin 1100
6. Alfredsson 1082
7. Thornton 1078
8. Iginla 1073
9. Modano 1065
10. Lidstrom 1041
11. Tkachuk 1006
12. Whitney 990
13. Kariya 989
14. Kovalev 986
15. Shanahan 977

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Alfredsson started in 1995-96, so this table includes missed seasons from multiple players.

I think most people have Tkachuk, Whitney, and Kovalev out and Kariya is borderline. The question will be whether Alfredsson is going to be the highest regular season scorer of his era not to be enshrined. Given his intangibles and his face of the franchise status, I really think he should get in. If he played in the 1970s or 1980s, he'd probably be considered an easy lock as his stats would have placed him high among the all-time career scorers. But scoring has gone down since then.

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11-22-2012, 11:14 AM
  #100
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Some say Bernie Ferdoko of the blues should not be i Hall but he was the face of the blues for over a decade.Alfie is the face of Senators and will be in hall at some point.Questions are many should Steve Shutt or Clark Gillies be in hall.Being in the Hall is more than stats.Scotty Bowman has Steve Yzerman at number 25 in his sellection of the top players.I think Scotty knows more about players than all of us combined

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