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The Luongo Thread: Another Brick in the Wall Edition

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11-22-2012, 09:52 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
- Is FLA a playoff team going forward?


- I think you are incorrect about FLA's money situation. Opendoor posted about FLA's arena deal and what FLA is collecting outside their HRR -- It's significant. Take a look at his post.


- Tallon got the OK to accept the contract so point is moot.


- Need will be apparent as the season progresses, if there is one.





Also, from the last thread response to you: I was talking about the 2013 1st rnder, not the 2012 5th overall pick.
Not nitpicking, but you said the Kab's deal was essentialy 50% of what Gillis' demand was...said demand was at the draft and WAS specifically for the 5th overall. Doesn't matter, i'm done with it. At this point it seems the Leafs have absolutely nothing worth Luongo to a majority of your fanbase.

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11-22-2012, 09:53 AM
  #27
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Saying a team doesn't need a much better goalie than they have is a strange concept to me. Especially when we're talking about zero cup rings.

I'm sorry to say, but you have seemed to have open yourself up for it, that I know making the playoffs seems like a big deal to a Leafs fan but Florida is not much closer to a cup that way.

Florida can afford to add pieces now that keep them competitive for years with lots of youth in the system. They can afford to trade their 3rd or 4th best young player and still do that.
Of course they'd like an upgrade...any team would. Then they will see the price tag and run like Hell. Every team has 1 or 2 main areas they need to address...goaltending is not a priority for FLA, offense is. So, if they felt that they needed to trade the pieces you feel are Luongo worthy, don't you think they'd shop said pieces on the open market and see if they can get a little offense?

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11-22-2012, 10:03 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Not nitpicking, but you said the Kab's deal was essentialy 50% of what Gillis' demand was...said demand was at the draft and WAS specifically for the 5th overall. Doesn't matter, i'm done with it. At this point it seems the Leafs have absolutely nothing worth Luongo to a majority of your fanbase.


I think at the draft or not, the demand still persists as long as Gillis feels it should. He has no reason to take it off the table right now. And so, since no deal was consummated, I would imagine it's still there... Only now, the 5th overall has to change to the 2013 pick.



So from that perspective, I saw it as equal.



As to nothing being worth Luongo: Obviously there is, because why would the VAN scouting staff be omnipresent at all the Marlies games? It's just that the fans can't agree -- Which is par for the course around here.


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 11-22-2012 at 10:15 AM.
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11-22-2012, 10:07 AM
  #29
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I think at the draft or not, the demand still persists as long as Gillis feels it should. He has no reason to take it off the table right now. And so, since no deal was consummated, I would imagine it's still there... Only now, the 5th overall has to change to the 2013 pick.



So from that perspective, I saw it as equal.



As to the nothing worth Luongo: Obviously there is, because why would the VAN scouting staff be omnipresent at all the Marlies games. It's just that the fans can't agree -- Which is par for the course around here.
With Gillis at the helm, probably trying to pick the best 5 Marlies so he can add them to Rielly and our 1st.

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11-22-2012, 10:14 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
With Gillis at the helm, probably trying to pick the best 5 Marlies so he can add them to Rielly and our 1st.


It's all perception. What Gillis finds fair, many agree with. What Burke finds fair, I'm sure many TO fans would agree with. It will just come down to who buckles first/the compromise. Unfortunately, for the purposes of this deal, I really think Gillis believes he can wait indefinitely... As in perhaps the entire year. Which won't make a TO/VAN deal quick, if anything.

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11-22-2012, 10:16 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
It's all perception. What Gillis finds fair, many agree with. What Burke finds fair, I'm sure many TO fans would agree with. It will just come down to who buckles first. Unfortunately, for the purposes of this deal, I really think Gillis believes he can wait indefinitely... As in perhaps the entire year. Which won't make a TO/VAN deal quick, if anything.
Agreed, but Burke isn't going to wait, if he feels a goalie HAS to be added, he'll go another route before overpaying.

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11-22-2012, 10:19 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Agreed, but Burke isn't going to wait, if he feels a goalie HAS to be added, he'll go another route before overpaying.


I know, and that's exactly what I expect him to do. Not because Burke doesn't have the assets, but because he will pursue the less costly, more unsure asset before ponying up for the star... In his mind, maybe even paying fair price is overpayment, because stars command so much anyways. Perhaps that's why he has tended to avoid getting one in VAN and TO...?

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11-22-2012, 10:22 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Of course they'd like an upgrade...any team would. Then they will see the price tag and run like Hell. Every team has 1 or 2 main areas they need to address...goaltending is not a priority for FLA, offense is. So, if they felt that they needed to trade the pieces you feel are Luongo worthy, don't you think they'd shop said pieces on the open market and see if they can get a little offense?

I disagree. If I was in Florida's position I would find a way to make a deal work. That being said, I don't think anyone is talking about the likes of Huberdeau or Gubranson outside of dream world. As to your questions about offensive help, that is a fair comment, but we need to talk about realities and who is available. Is there a good top 6 player on a team available that Florida might want? Furthermore, can said team afford to deal a player for mostly futures and not impact Florida's roster? Big questions.

That's the beauty of Internet message boards. Our opinions don't mean much at all but we are free to have them and talk about them. I haven't weighed in much on the subject because this is especially a spitball topic. We have no idea where Luongo is willing to go and what those teams might perceive his value as. We really don't have much idea at all what Gillis is looking for.

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11-22-2012, 10:23 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I know, and that's exactly what I expect him to do. Not because Burke doesn't have the assets, but because he will pursue the less costly, more unsure asset before ponying up for the star... In his mind, maybe even paying fair price is overpayment, because stars command so much anyways. Perhaps that's why he has tended to avoid getting one in VAN and TO...?
I think 2 1st's and a 2nd for a PPG forward pretty much dispells this...no? Perhaps he looks at everything...ie: age, ability to issue his own contract instead of taking on a long deal etc...etc.

He brought last years 5th over all scorer (4 straight years of 30+ goals) to Toronto and paid a more than fair price.

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11-22-2012, 10:27 AM
  #35
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I disagree. If I was in Florida's position I would find a way to make a deal work. That being said, I don't think anyone is talking about the likes of Huberdeau or Gubranson outside of dream world. As to your questions about offensive help, that is a fair comment, but we need to talk about realities and who is available. Is there a good top 6 player on a team available that Florida might want? Furthermore, can said team afford to deal a player for mostly futures and not impact Florida's roster? Big questions.

That's the beauty of Internet message boards. Our opinions don't mean much at all but we are free to have them and talk about them. I haven't weighed in much on the subject because this is especially a spitball topic. We have no idea where Luongo is willing to go and what those teams might perceive his value as. We really don't have much idea at all what Gillis is looking for.
These are all good points, but just because the ideal player may not be available now, doesn't mean they decide to bring in Luongo. Better for them to wait, if the goalies falter...then make a deal. If not, look for offensive help at the deadline.

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11-22-2012, 10:35 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I think 2 1st's and a 2nd for a PPG forward pretty much dispells this...no? Perhaps he looks at everything...ie: age, ability to issue his own contract instead of taking on a long deal etc...etc.

He brought last years 5th over all scorer (4 straight years of 30+ goals) to Toronto and paid a more than fair price.



Sorry, I meant star goalies. Not stars in general.


The ability to issue his contract yes, would be a factor, but only a minor one in the face of the deal itself and Luongo's age. To be sure, the strength of the contract cannot be denied - the fight on BDCs is quite apparent.


Maybe Burke does take everything into account. But then if he did, then I would have to seriously question his decision making process for goal, based on what had happened in VAN, and based on what has transpired to this point in TO. He just refuses to pay even a fair price on goalies, shown over his career - and that's why Luongo is still in VAN.

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11-22-2012, 10:38 AM
  #37
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Sorry, I meant star goalies. Not stars in general.


The ability to issue his contract yes, would be a factor. However, the strength of the contract cannot be denied - the fight on BDCs is quite apparent. Lastly, I think age is the only real key factor here.


Maybe Burke does take everything into account. But then if he did, then I would have seriously question his decision making process for goal, based on what happened in VAN, and based on what has transpired to this point in TO. He just refuses to pay even a fair price on goalies, shown over his career - and that's why Luongo is still in VAN.
I won't argue you points about Burke while he was in Van...i can't, i don't have the facts. I am curious however, what star goalies were available to him then? What price did he refuse to pay?

As far as Burke not ponying up being the reason Luongo is still in Van, not entirely, it's because NO TEAM is willing to pay Gillis' price, not just TO.

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11-22-2012, 11:08 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I won't argue you points about Burke while he was in Van...i can't, i don't have the facts. I am curious however, what star goalies were available to him then? What price did he refuse to pay?

As far as Burke not ponying up being the reason Luongo is still in Van, not entirely, it's because NO TEAM is willing to pay Gillis' price, not just TO.
All we have are rumours as to what Gillis wants and what TO has offered. I haven't heard any rumours regarding the other teams.

Teams cannot be negotiating trades right now. Besides, no team would want to trade for Lu until the new CBA is established.

The sad thing is that this could go on until next season and we'll still be here arguing about it.

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11-22-2012, 11:12 AM
  #39
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All we have are rumours as to what Gillis wants and what TO has offered. I haven't heard any rumours regarding the other teams.

Teams cannot be negotiating trades right now. Besides, no team would want to trade for Lu until the new CBA is established.

The sad thing is that this could go on until next season and we'll still be here arguing about it.
Not entirely true. Luongo was available at the draft, there were teams interested, but the GM's (Burke Tallon and even Gillis) all said price was the stalling point. I agreethat the closer to lockout we got, the new CBA became the biggest factor.

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11-22-2012, 11:17 AM
  #40
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I won't argue you points about Burke while he was in Van...i can't, i don't have the facts. I am curious however, what star goalies were available to him then? What price did he refuse to pay?


For VAN, forget even star goalies, just better starters than Cloutier would have done this team a world of good.


He did not pay any starter level price because the goalies he brought in were dubious from the outset. The "goalie of the future" is a running joke around here as a byproduct.



Quote:
As far as Burke not ponying up being the reason Luongo is still in Van, not entirely, it's because NO TEAM is willing to pay Gillis' price, not just TO.


No , not entirely, but _mostly_. The need is clear in TO, like no other team, and Burke has failed to capitalize on a limited market. Burke _should_ be paying a fair price. To even put it on the table to get Gillis to look away from FLA. The reason I suspect that he hasn't is that he has yet to even be afforded a private meeting with Luongo... What does that tell you?



He's so off on price right now that Gillis cannot even take him seriously, this is why Burke is seen as a poor negotiator in this instance. Also backed by similar refusals to deal in the past. Can you tell me why Burke has yet to bring even a legit starter to TO in 4 years? Forget a star level goalie. What about just a legit starter?

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11-22-2012, 11:21 AM
  #41
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For VAN, forget even star goalies, just better starters than Cloutier would have done this team a world of good.


He did not pay any starter level price because the goalies he brought in were dubious from the outset. The "goalie of the future" is a running joke around here as a byproduct.







No , not entirely, but _mostly_. The need is clear in TO, like no other team, and Burke has failed to capitalize on a limited market. Burke _should_ be paying a fair price. To even put it on the table to get Gillis to look away from FLA. The reason I suspect that he hasn't is that he has yet to even be afforded a private meeting with Luongo... What does that tell you?



He's so off on price right now that Gillis cannot even take him seriously
, this is why Burke is seen as a poor negotiator in this instance. Also backed by similar refusals to deal in the past. Can you tell me why Burke has yet to bring even a legit starter to TO in 4 years? Forget a star level goalie. What about just a legit starter?
In all fairness, when Gillis approached Burke with his Gardiner,Bozak,Frattin and (at the time) the 5th overall pick....how was Burke supposed to take him seriously?

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11-22-2012, 11:29 AM
  #42
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In all fairness, when Gillis approached Burke with his Gardiner,Bozak,Frattin and (at the time) the 5th overall pick....how was Burke supposed to take him seriously?


He wasn't, not with Gardiner and the 5th overall there. But what stopped him from making subsequent offers, over the course of a full offseason, to get the ball rolling? What stopped him from getting even a sit down with Luongo?



He knew Luongo's top destination was FLA, so he knew he had to turn the attention away from that place. So far, he hasn't done so - and that's on him, not on Gillis. If he came in with even a fair offer, I would have to think Gillis would be fair in return and at least provide a sit down with Lu... Much akin to what I in the Eye suggested. It hasn't happened, and that's on Burke IMO.



He devalues goalies and can't close a deal to get a good one.

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11-22-2012, 12:02 PM
  #43
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He devalues goalies and can't close a deal to get a good one.
The only time he had a good goalie was one already there for him in Anaheim. I can't even remember most of the goalies we had during the Burke era because they were so terrible...

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11-22-2012, 12:08 PM
  #44
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He wasn't, not with Gardiner and the 5th overall there. But what stopped him from making subsequent offers, over the course of a full offseason, to get the ball rolling? What stopped him from getting even a sit down with Luongo?



He knew Luongo's top destination was FLA, so he knew he had to turn the attention away from that place. So far, he hasn't done so - and that's on him, not on Gillis. If he came in with even a fair offer, I would have to think Gillis would be fair in return and at least provide a sit down with Lu... Much akin to what I in the Eye suggested. It hasn't happened, and that's on Burke IMO.



He devalues goalies and can't close a deal to get a good one.
Seriously?? If you knew someone was asking 100 grand for a car and you were prepared to 20 grand...would you bother offering it? (keep in mind that even the one asking 100 grand said it was to much as well as Tallon)

It isn't certainly NOT on Burke. Gillis' price is out to lunch...period. When the price is that ridiculously high, it pretty much ends any and all negotiation as buyers are not willing to come even close.

How come all of you keep saying Burke is out to lunch because he isn't blowing his wad for Luongo? We have Reimer who is pretty much Dubnyk, yet Tambo isn't being called an idiot. Tallon literally laughed at the price, nobody is questioning his intelligence. Face it, your GM poured ice water over any flame there was with that price tag.

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11-22-2012, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Seriously?? If you knew someone was asking 100 grand for a car and you were prepared to 20 grand...would you bother offering it? (keep in mind that even the one asking 100 grand said it was to much as well as Tallon)

It isn't certainly NOT on Burke. Gillis' price is out to lunch...period. When the price is that ridiculously high, it pretty much ends any and all negotiation as buyers are not willing to come even close.

How come all of you keep saying Burke is out to lunch because he isn't blowing his wad for Luongo? We have Reimer who is pretty much Dubnyk, yet Tambo isn't being called an idiot. Tallon literally laughed at the price, nobody is questioning his intelligence. Face it, your GM poured ice water over any flame there was with that price tag.
Well if you go back a few threads...

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11-22-2012, 12:19 PM
  #46
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The only time he had a good goalie was one already there for him in Anaheim. I can't even remember most of the goalies we had during the Burke era because they were so terrible...
Again, i'll ask, what goalies were made available to him that he "devalued" enough to pass on?

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11-22-2012, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Seriously?? If you knew someone was asking 100 grand for a car and you were prepared to 20 grand...would you bother offering it? (keep in mind that even the one asking 100 grand said it was to much as well as Tallon)

It isn't certainly NOT on Burke. Gillis' price is out to lunch...period. When the price is that ridiculously high, it pretty much ends any and all negotiation as buyers are not willing to come even close.


So then what is Burke doing still phoning Gillis? Checking up on the weather in VAN? If Gillis's price is out to lunch, what is Burke doing
here? Shouldn't he be offended and run off into his little corner?



And let's be clear here, you think the price is exorbitant. Based on the public reactions of both GMs wanting to know the asking price. They found out, and they balked. But what prevented Burke, who's need is as apparent as if it's playing on TSN everyday, from negotiating further? Even to the point of getting a sit down? What stopped him from even getting close? Answer: Burke is an idiot with goaltending and he always will be. In fact, I will surmise that it's Nonis, and not Burke, even pushing for Luongo at all.



Quote:
How come all of you keep saying Burke is out to lunch because he isn't blowing his wad for Luongo? We have Reimer who is pretty much Dubnyk, yet Tambo isn't being called an idiot. Tallon literally laughed at the price, nobody is questioning his intelligence. Face it, your GM poured ice water over any flame there was with that price tag.


EDM would have to pay top dollar for Luongo, TO would not.


FLA would have to supplement a position, not fill a hole (not yet), so their need isn't like TO's.


And on the subject of GMs, I'm pretty sure you could make cases to question the intelligence of both of them. But to question Burke's intelligence, especially here, is automatic and justified. We lived it.

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11-22-2012, 12:21 PM
  #48
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Seriously?? If you knew someone was asking 100 grand for a car and you were prepared to 20 grand...would you bother offering it? (keep in mind that even the one asking 100 grand said it was to much as well as Tallon)
The car is worth 80 grand, take your 20 and go buy a hyundai.

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11-22-2012, 12:23 PM
  #49
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Well if you go back a few threads...
But the reason most are questioning other GM's intelligience is because they don't want to pay an astronomical price. If multiple GM's say the price is way to high and one says it's bang on....hard to believe that the multiple are all wrong.

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11-22-2012, 12:23 PM
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Again, i'll ask, what goalies were made available to him that he "devalued" enough to pass on?

The real question is why didn't he bring in a real starter to VAN? Ever. Why again has he failed to do it in TO? Those are the question you need to ask.


Talk about what actually took place, or in fact didn't take place, instead of basing arguments about the speculation. He didn't remedy the goaltending situation in VAN, to his own demise. He hasn't done it again, in TO, which will likely result in the same.

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