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Lockout Thread: I told myself I wouldn't do this| Part IV

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11-22-2012, 11:26 AM
  #276
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
Do you have anything to support your thoughts beside watching Judge Judy deal with contracts that aren't negotiated under a union? Not saying that a contract isn't a contract regardless of the circumstances you signed it, but you haven't really made any real case that a contract negotiated under the rules of a CBA would have the exact same effect as any written or verbal rule signed between any Tom, Dick or Harry that was negotiated individually under no pretense of a CBA.
A player contract is a legal binding document, and the only qualifier is that the CBA (governing rules of the NHL) that has been ratified and thus agreed to by both sides/parties, states it does take precedence over a SPC (standard player contract) and can modify its terms accordingly. However in order for it to take precedence the NHLPA would have to allow it to by what they negotiate on their behalf. "Make Whole" is their legal right, and only if they themselves agree to the owners terms in this new CBA will they not receive their full amounts.

No Union, no CBA and therefore nothing to supersede the legal binding players contract. If an Owner signed a contract that says he will pay a player XX $ for XX seasons than that is what he owes in full.

During the last lockout they also talked about desertification of the union when Goodenow was in power, and if the player contracts were not upheld then the offsetting entry would be every single contract ripped up making every player a UFA instantly. Now while the NHL may want to break the union, I'm guessing the majority of Owners would not like to set their players (particularly the stars) free by breaching contracts.

Here are a couple articles relating tor other major sports unions on this topic of desertification.

NFL : http://www.forbes.com/sites/sportsmo...n-no-football/ or NBA : http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...ify/index.html

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11-22-2012, 11:47 AM
  #277
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Nick Kypreos on desertification of NHLPA

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It’s safe to say no one would be more familiar with unfair labour practice claims than this guy (Donald Fehr). Few people remember that when the World Series was cancelled in 1994, it was a court order that brought baseball back on the field rather than the players begging for their jobs back. It was the legal system that sided with Fehr and his MLBPA and not the side of billionaire owners.

Another option for Fehr -- a worst-case scenario for any hockey fan -- would be decertifying the NHLPA. But that’s a complex procedure that guarantees the players nothing, and guarantees not only no hockey for this season, but likely next as well.

Decertification
isn't a word thrown around the stick rack very often. It is, however, a word that is gaining some steam among the players. Can decertifying the union be the big trump card Fehr has had tucked away for a rainy day? This is the nuclear option that Goodenow didn't choose in 2004.

The purpose of decertifying would be to eliminate Bettman's negotiating partner. Without a functioning PA, it’s the players’ hope that an owners’ lockout would be deemed illegal and instantly lifted. Dissolving the unions also dissolves the salary cap, linkage, escrow, salary arbitration, rookie cap, you name it. The owners could argue decertifying jeopardizes existing contracts. But some owners, such as the Pittsburgh Penguins’ Mario Lemieux or Los Angeles Kings’ Philip Anschutz, might not like the idea of losing Sidney Crosby to the Rangers or Jonathan Quick to the Leafs when hockey finally returns, and the players would obviously argue they have valid contracts that should be honoured.

You can forget the NHL draft as well. Projected top picks Nathan McKinnon and Seth Jones would simply go to the highest bidder. With the exception of unrestricted free agency, everything else would be deemed illegal in the eyes of the courts. When sports deals are negotiated in good faith, it’s called a CBA. When they aren't, it’s called price fixing. Price fixing leads to accusations of antitrust, and antitrust is a word that doesn't make any billionaire sports-club owner feel warm and fuzzy.

Full Story: http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l..._gary_bettman/

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11-22-2012, 12:05 PM
  #278
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Am I the only one who kind of hopes this decertification thing happens?? If the NHL wants to play with fire, lets do it.
I think you mean the PA. Decertification would be doing the NHL a favour, essentially. For more about this: read the recent decertification by the NFLPA and NBAPA.

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11-22-2012, 12:06 PM
  #279
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I see this going just like the last lockout. Goes the full year, then the players finally take a deal they could have taken way earlier.

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11-22-2012, 12:15 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
A player contract is a legal binding document, and the only qualifier is that the CBA (governing rules of the NHL) that has been ratified and thus agree to by both sides/parties, states it does take precedence over a SPC (standard player contract) and can modify its terms accordingly. However in order for it to take precedence the NHLPA would have to allow it to by what they negotiate on their behalf. "Make Whole" is their legal right, and only if they themselves agree to the owners terms in this new CBA will they no receive their full amounts.

No Union, no CBA and therefore nothing to supersede the legal binding players contract. If an Owner signed a contract that says he will pay a player XX $ for XX seasons than that is what he owes in full.

During the last lockout they also talked about desertification of the union when Goodenow was in power, and if the player contracts were not upheld then the offsetting entry would be every single contract ripped up making every player a UFA instantly. Now while the NHL may want to break the union, I'm guessing the majority of Owners would not like to set their players (particularly the stars) free by breaching contracts.

Here are a couple articles relating tor other major sports unions on this topic of desertification.

NFL : http://www.forbes.com/sites/sportsmo...n-no-football/ or NBA : http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...ify/index.html

Thanks for the links. Though I was looking for a link with more explicit proof because I've been looking for information on how exactly the contracts would be treated as I've been unable to find anything that really goes into detail about that. However, owners don't necessarily have to give up their stars though. Take Isles for example. How many players do they legitimately want to keep and build a potential winner around? Everyone becomes replaceable. What's stopping them from honouring Tavares' contract but then giving every other player the stipulation of renegotiating a new contract with the team or hit the UFA market and see what they can get there? If that can in fact be done, decertification only provides the promise that big stars will get their pay in full because teams will be too afraid to let them go. But big stars are relative handful when you look at what kind of players make up the majority of the league.

I'm trying to think this through from a player perspective and all the things I'd consider before voting for decertification. Florida may want to keep Wiess but would they really pay 3M/4 years for Scottie Upshall if there weren't a cap floor in place? Probably not. Threatening to decertify doesn't mean the league will be forced to give the PA everything they want. So either they use it as a tactic to hopefully gain some sort of concession from the league, or they go all out and if they're looking at worse case scenario, I'm not sure why many in the PA would support it. It gives the stars a greal deal of power over owners, but in turn, the owners gain even more leverage on 75% of the other players that make up the league.

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11-22-2012, 12:18 PM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Nick Kypreos on desertification of NHLPA
If deals made under a CBA is considered good faith, how could they suddenly turn into price fixing? Unless the league was making deals or talking business during the lockout, how would price fixing be applied?

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11-22-2012, 12:37 PM
  #282
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lol do what? decertify, maybe lose the cap, lose guaranteed contracts and lose they contracts they already have lol

great plan
I doubt very highly some teams want to lose the rights to their superstar assets. Sounds like a pretty good bargaining chip.. Although from my understanding, all existing contracts would need to be honoured in the name of the law. Abolished salary cap? Another good bargaining chip.

The NHL wants to lock out the players and prevent millions of fans from being able to see the sport they love? Lets make them regret their decision.

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11-22-2012, 12:55 PM
  #283
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well its officially november 22nd. that little hope i had of this season being salvaged is offically gone. good bye 2012-2013 NHL season. It was nice knowing you.

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11-22-2012, 01:09 PM
  #284
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Yes, like any good husband/father would.
That is very important the immediate need of family. Husbands and fathers, however, do make greater sacrifices. It is a difficult decision to put the greater good of many above personal responsibilities.

Tough decisions, however, Hamrlik's really isn't unless he's one of those players who has squandered millions and needs his last paycheque to survive.

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11-22-2012, 01:13 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Jerkini View Post
Am I the only one who kind of hopes this decertification thing happens?? If the NHL wants to play with fire, lets do it.
I would love to see it decertify.

Contracts would either have to be honoured, voided, or individually modified if there was no CBA that was part of any legal agreement.

This is the part where we include all the statements about the players "should know" their contracts can be modified in the next CBA. No CBA no modifications.

Cannot apply something that does not exist.

Anyone have the can opener for this tin of worms?

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11-22-2012, 01:46 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
well its officially november 22nd. that little hope i had of this season being salvaged is offically gone. good by 2012-2013 NHL season. It was nice knowing you.
Same, can't believe it got this far. Was hopeful a few weeks ago when they had that big week of meetings, now not so much. I expect December cancelled within a few days and goodbye season. Lose-lose for everyone.

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11-22-2012, 03:16 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
This reasoning is ridiculous. The MLB owners collectively agree to spend as much money as they want on their player payroll. Until we need to cross that bridge, what reason do fans have to be upset with how much the Blue Jays spend if the MLB owners, players and the Blue Jays organization in particularly are okay with this?

In contrast, the owners collectively agree that they are paying the players too much in salary. Players don't want to take any sort or pay cut or deferment. The issue is money spent on salaries so some people will look at their current salaries and the PA's proposal for future salaries as the premise in determining how reasonable or unreasonable they feel the PA is being with their demands. If the owners were fine with paying the salaries that they currently pay, how many people do you think would care? NONE.
the nhl owners are giving out those big contracts to the players. they let the players determine how much the players make,( bidding war for the players) but if the owners said to crosby 5mil a year you chose the team, and so on, when the player is ufa.

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11-22-2012, 03:31 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I would love to see it decertify.

Contracts would either have to be honoured, voided, or individually modified if there was no CBA that was part of any legal agreement.

This is the part where we include all the statements about the players "should know" their contracts can be modified in the next CBA. No CBA no modifications.

Cannot apply something that does not exist.

Anyone have the can opener for this tin of worms?
You and I wanted the NHLPA to "Blow it up" last lockout in 2004/05 and set all the players free, because for a rich team like our Leafs, they would be at the front of the line snapping up top end talent and rebuilding the Leafs.

Go ahead make my day, and decertify and stick it to the Owners and Bettman for their outrages bargaining demands and tactics. Would serve them right to lose the Hard Cap and everything they fought for.. Donald Fehr already battled and beat the greedy Major league baseball owners in the courts proving unfair business practices forcing his workers back to work. So taking on Bettman would be a breeze considering his experience and precedence in winning these types of work stoppages previously.

Our Maple Leafs having Tavares centering Stamkos and Perry would be just fine by me, after the dust settles after a scorched earth reboot. .

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11-22-2012, 03:33 PM
  #289
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You and I wanted the NHLPA to "Blow it up" last lockout in 2004/05 and set all the players free, because for a rich team like our Leafs, they would be at the front of the line snapping up top end talent and rebuilding the Leafs.

Go ahead make my day, and decertify and stick it to the Owners and Bettman for their outrages bargaining demands and tactics. Would serve them right to lose the Hard Cap and everything they fought for..

Our Maple Leafs having Tavares centering Stamkos and Perry would be just fine by me.
I wasn't here but yea I agree with that, I really wanted the leafs to blow it up at that point to. We definitely needed a change at that time.

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11-22-2012, 03:43 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
If deals made under a CBA is considered good faith, how could they suddenly turn into price fixing? Unless the league was making deals or talking business during the lockout, how would price fixing be applied?
Owners are not willing to pay "make whole" those existing contracts, so there is no good faith basis argument that applies here.

Signing one deal, and then wanting to pay a lower amount is the definition of price fixing by breaching a contracts terms. Without a CBA in place there would be no means of overriding the terms of a previous completed deal by the Owners. The expired CBA is the only means by which the Owners are currently hiding behind, allowing a lockout and shielding them from antitrust, and other legal legislation for withholding salaries and demanding discounts on current deals in place.

Antitrust penalties and fines in courts could become very costly in addition to being forced Judge Judy style to honour what already exists.

Quote:
The mere threat of accusing baseball owners of anti-competitive behaviour or unfair business practice paved the way for Fehr's legendary reputation in baseball, and is the sole reason why baseball remains without a salary cap today. Fehr would look for the courts to expedite the process, and in the blink of the eye we could be looking at a level of animosity we've never seen before. The 2004-05 labour fight we watched will pale in comparison to the Armageddon we'll see if this is the path Fehr chooses next.


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11-22-2012, 03:49 PM
  #291
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I wasn't here but yea I agree with that, I really wanted the leafs to blow it up at that point to. We definitely needed a change at that time.
We're one of the weakest teams in competitiveness at present in the NHL as finishing near the bottom of the standings and 7 years and counting of no playoffs verifies.

Leafs have very little talent and no superstars that one should fear a blow up of the current roster setting all current Maple Leafs free and hoping to replace them with some of the 700+ UFAs that would be hitting the market. Combine that with no hard cap spending limits and the rich teams would benefit the most by offer the largest contracts to recruit replacements.

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11-22-2012, 07:03 PM
  #292
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The biggest mismatch I’ve ever covered was not on a field. It was organized baseball against the MLBPA. And, mostly, it was unnecessary. Baseball owners refused to see the union or Fehr for what they clearly were.

MLB demonized Fehr personally. Despite seeing dozens of players constantly involved in every bargaining session, they refused to accept that mere “ballplayers” actually understood the issues — sometimes better than they did. Owners, often fighting among themselves, didn’t grasp that players formed a negotiation information tree, reporting back to all players.

For decades, many owners hoped that Fehr, like Marvin Miller before him, somehow had the players mesmerized, hypnotized. If they could just snap their fingers the right way, players would awake to their benevolence. NHL owners need to understand Fehr’s first two rules. First, the players are saturated with info and totally trust its source — other players, not Fehr. Second, a Fehr union will always bring a weaker deal for stronger backing.

Finally, after going 0 for 8 in work stoppages, canceling the 1994 World Series and losing three collusion cases in the 1980s at a cost of $280 million, baseball figured it out. The ’94 strike left both sides, and the game, bloody. MLB finally quit framing the union as an ideological foe and began to work with it in grudging, respectful, adversarial semi-harmony. Things got better.

That labor peace has lasted 17 years with no end in sight.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...l?tid=obinsite

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11-22-2012, 09:40 PM
  #293
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Funny...
I was a HUGE fan of baseball until it got "Fehrified".


If the owners got what they wanted, I would almost for sure still follow the league (some form of parity so that the Yankee's can't buy their way into the playoffs each and every season).
But due to player greed, I had to watch my team not have a chance in hell season after season until I just lost interest.

I heard there was some big trade last week.
But then I looked up the players involved and I haven't even heard of any of them. I'm that out of touch with the sport.
I was just checking out mlb attendance.
To no surprise whatsoever, I see that attendance is huge in the rich cities, and pathetic in the smaller markets.

A system that is good for the players... and only the players.

Please owners... please... don't let Fehr do it to the nhl.

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11-23-2012, 03:08 AM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Funny...
I was a HUGE fan of baseball until it got "Fehrified".


If the owners got what they wanted, I would almost for sure still follow the league (some form of parity so that the Yankee's can't buy their way into the playoffs each and every season).
But due to player greed, I had to watch my team not have a chance in hell season after season until I just lost interest.

I heard there was some big trade last week.
But then I looked up the players involved and I haven't even heard of any of them. I'm that out of touch with the sport.
I was just checking out mlb attendance.
To no surprise whatsoever, I see that attendance is huge in the rich cities, and pathetic in the smaller markets.

A system that is good for the players... and only the players.

Please owners... please... don't let Fehr do it to the nhl.
Exact same position and feeling about it here, down to be a baseball fan until that lockout. What is there like 5 real teams now that could contend...

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11-23-2012, 07:13 AM
  #295
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http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...mrlik-comments


Looks like some players are cracking.

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11-23-2012, 07:52 AM
  #296
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Wow!! Now it's decertification! I am starting to feel the owners are playing with fire with their hardline approach. I have been a 100% supporter of the owners but must wholeheartedly disagree with their handling of the last negotiations.

The NHLPA came to the table with an offer just as the NHL had requested. It is now the same language as theirs and I feel everyone is getting on the same page.

If the NHL came to the table with their absolute best-offer and expected to bully the rest of the way to an agreement then I must seriously question Bettman's tactics. You can't show your losing cards and fist fight for the pot, not how the game works. They must get back to the table and give-and-take and get it done.

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11-23-2012, 07:53 AM
  #297
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Originally Posted by tmlhockeyfan View Post
http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...mrlik-comments


Looks like some players are cracking.
That's still all about Hamrlik. Old news really. I clicked the link expecting to see more players saying that. Instead of one of the most effected players out there. The truth is it will piss a guy like that off the most, being 39 with one year left on his deal. He may not get another offer if the season is scratched.

Quote:
“I still support Fehr, but we as players we need to push him a little bit more and get the best deal possible,” Hamrlik told TSN on Thursday. “I’m a little bit disappointed in what he (Cole) said. What I do know is he has three years left on his contract and I’m sure he got a nice signing bonus this summer, so I don’t think he didn’t have to sacrifice anything.”

I find the bolded part odd. He's been in the league for 20 years now and he feels financially desperate enough now to whine about a 1 year deal at 3.5M. Where's the rest of his money? He should be whining about the fact that he has almost no more chances at the Stanley Cup he hasn't won yet.

If he was saying that instead complaining jealously about Cole's deal I'd feel for him. But what he has said tells me he's only concerned for himself.

If I'm a player, I can't put Roman Hamrlik's needs ahead of what's best for the players moving forward.

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11-23-2012, 08:09 AM
  #298
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That's still all about Hamrlik. Old news really. I clicked the link expecting to see more players saying that. Instead of one of the most effected players out there. The truth is it will piss a guy like that off the most, being 39 with one year left on his deal. He may not get another offer if the season is scratched.

I find the bolded part odd. He's been in the league for 20 years now and he feels financially desperate enough now to whine about a 1 year deal at 3.5M. Where's the rest of his money? He should be whining about the fact that he has almost no more chances at the Stanley Cup he hasn't won yet.

If he was saying that instead complaining jealously about Cole's deal I'd feel for him. But what he has said tells me he's only concerned for himself.

If I'm a player, I can't put Roman Hamrlik's needs ahead of what's best for the players moving forward.
If 39 year old last year of NHL career players are all that are cracking I don't think the NHLPA is concerned.

It is obvious that he'd like to play out his last year and get whatever percentage of his contract the owners are willing to give him.

I support his right to be honest, open and to moo about how he feels about it.

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11-23-2012, 08:41 AM
  #299
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
If 39 year old last year of NHL career players are all that are cracking I don't think the NHLPA is concerned.

It is obvious that he'd like to play out his last year and get whatever percentage of his contract the owners are willing to give him.

I support his right to be honest, open and to moo about how he feels about it.
Exactly. I've been through long drawn out labour dispute that saw people really lose things in life and I know the whiners are the loudest. Not to belittle anyone in that situation (I was one of the loudest) but it's true.

I don't put much stock in what Hamrlik has to say. But we do know the media will try to run with it as much as they can.

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11-23-2012, 08:48 AM
  #300
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Exactly. I've been through long drawn out labour dispute that saw people really lose things in life and I know the whiners are the loudest. Not to belittle anyone in that situation (I was one of the loudest) but it's true.

I don't put much stock in what Hamrlik has to say. But we do know the media will try to run with it as much as they can.
Molson's via a third party has whinged about the situation, which is 1 owner in 30.

We need to see 23 players come out for the same ratio.



Maybe we'll hear some good new today. From scraps I heard the owners side thought the meetings went better than the players did.

I could see decertification take place this time if there is no movement from the owners. It would indicate that the owners are never going to negotiate and like the last time just write off the season every time the CBA expires. Players would be better off contracting individually.

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