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11-22-2012, 12:24 PM
  #51
Liferleafer
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
The car is worth 80 grand, take your 20 and go buy a hyundai.
If the car was worth 80, you'd think one of the interested buyers would take a shot instead of all going...WHOA, that price is a joke, and walking away.

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11-22-2012, 12:26 PM
  #52
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But the reason most are questioning other GM's intelligience is because they don't want to pay an astronomical price. If multiple GM's say the price is way to high and one says it's bang on....hard to believe that the multiple are all wrong.


Because GMs can be taken at their word now? By the way, does Burke believe or not believe in a rebuild? Or is he still adamant about not trading Schenn? Or is he still spewing crap about fair deals after taking ANA and CGY to the cleaners? Or maybe he should keep talking about not wanting to make the playoffs just to be punted out instead of you know, actually making the playoffs at all? Or maybe he should blather on about BDCs while calling up Gillis to ask about Luongo?


Yes, Burke (or any GM for that matter), should be regarded as beacons of honesty. Especially him.

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11-22-2012, 12:27 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
If the car was worth 80, you'd think one of the interested buyers would take a shot instead of all going...WHOA, that price is a joke, and walking away.
Sometimes a nice car has to stay on the lot a while, not everyone appreciates them or can afford them, that doesn't mean you let them go for less.

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11-22-2012, 12:32 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
So then what is Burke doing still phoning Gillis? Checking up on the weather in VAN? If Gillis's price is out to lunch, what is Burke doing
here? Shouldn't he be offended and run off into his little corner?



And let's be clear here, you think the price is exorbitant. Based on the public reactions of both GMs wanting to know the asking price. They found out, and they balked. But what prevented Burke, who's need is as apparent as if it's playing on TSN everyday, from negotiating further? Even to the point of getting a sit down? What stopped him from even getting close? Answer: Burke is an idiot with goaltending and he always will be. In fact, I will surmise that it's Nonis, and not Burke, even pushing for Luongo at all.







EDM would have to pay top dollar for Luongo, TO would not.


FLA would have to supplement a position, not fill a hole (not yet), so their need isn't like TO's.


And on the subject of GMs, I'm pretty sure you could make cases to question the intelligence of both of them. But to question Burke's intelligence, especially here, is automatic and justified. We lived it.
Enough with the sitdown stuff. It was against the CBA to talk to a player who is under contract to another team. Gillis granted permission to FLA because that is Luongo's 1st choice. I have yet to see ANY other team get a "sit down". Why would Burke need a sit down? It's not like he needs to know if Luongo will resign...not like he needs to know whether Luongo will play here, i'm pretty sure that Luongo would tell Gillis he wouldn't the minute talks started with TO.

And by the way, Burke didn't stop. Going by rumours (all we have), he offered Schenn, he offered Komi,Kuli and a 1st...he may have offered more. I get that Gillis declined.Why is Burke still calling?? Maybe he's hoping Gillis has sobered up by now.

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11-22-2012, 12:35 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Sometimes a nice car has to stay on the lot a while, not everyone appreciates them or can afford them, that doesn't mean you let them go for less.
100% bingo...and here is your problem, when the only buyers are people (teams) without the money (pieces available you feel are worthy), that car is gonna sit there for a while.

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11-22-2012, 12:36 PM
  #56
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Putting words in my mouth (again): I never said Kadri would be "better" on RW in the NHL than Lupul. I'm contending Kadri wouldn't (likely) lose anything switching wings while Lupul would. It's based on his skillset and left-shot, and Lupul's history.



Kadri doesn't _seem_ to lose anything on either wing, while Lupul does (see last year's stats). His most recent stats show he's better on LW. If he can be just as good on the right, I'm pretty sure you can dig up the data of when he played RW in EDM and PHI (since ANA seems to be a sticking point due Perry) and gather a sample (80+ games) to prove your case (show me he's PPG in that role). Go for it... (My sample is this past season btw)
Interesting how you ask for a sample of 80+ games when Lupul only played 66 this year. And obviouslu his PPG in his first few seasons in the league will be less than they would be in his prime-exactly the reason why I don't expect Kadri to make a significant impact alone that would make it worthwhile to pass up on Lupul for the next few years when we have the best shot at the cup.



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Need _can_ be abstract. What you are doing here is identifying a problem and subjectively ascertaining what you _need_ to fix it. You think we need Lupul. I disagree. Clearly, our perceptions don't align -- but how can that be if Need is objective? You get what I'm saying? The fact that we disagree means that need is not objective in this case. You are wrong.
Okay, so we can agree to disagree on whether or not we need to add a top-6 forward. Fine, I guess it's case closed.

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You have showed that you recognize value, another abstract concept, even in a hypothetical swap of Kadri + Kulemin vs. Lupul. You told me which you weighted more/less. Meaning, an evaluation was done and an opinion given. Why did you do that if you don't believe "value" has relevance in trade talk? Understand? So when I bring up value as a point for accepting Kadri, you should not dismiss it.
I don't understand. I'm not saying Lupul would help us more than the rest of the Leafs roster combined. I think it's fairly likely that Kulemin and Kadri combined generate more offense than Lupul alone. That is all.


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Huh? We have three top6 forwards to put there. Players that have produced at a top6 rate, even as recently as last year. That's not a hole. Period. You can upgrade the position, but it isn't a hole. I mean, how many NHL teams have depth enough to be able to claim that? Your expectations are insanely high. Not to mention that placing those expectations on Lupul is highly dubious.
Well, if we look at past cup winners, their playoff scoring was way higher than ours? Why is that?
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No matter what you say, Lupul produced at his best clip on the LW in TO. I will keep repeating this fact.
No matter what you say Lupul produced at his best clip in TO given proper linemates and ice time. It literally makes no sense why you would think your reason is more likely.

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So to re-iterate: 51 point Lupul with more limitations here vs. 43 point Higgins. Is 8 points worth the difference of everything else Higgins does? If it's equal, now start applying the new limitations to Lupul in this new environment and it gets worse... Do you contend any of this on a stats based level? Again, note: I'm being kind by not projecting games played, giving Lupul 82, and getting the same ice time here that he has averaged over his career (even though I know it's not likely).
It's not just about points either. If we can get a playmaker to help create chemistry so we're not running a helicopter line that results in Kesler wearing himself down, it would help benefit the entire team as a whole. And again, given top-6 minutes and playing with the Sedins on the PP will boost his point totals, if that's what you care about.

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Question: What do you project Kadri's offense to be in his first season and why?
I expect him to show flashes of offensive instinct but to not be consistent enough in his rookie year to merit getting top-6 minutes. So maybe around 40 points, while being a bit of a detriment on the ice while he's not producing. Eventually in a couple of years he would be well adjusted enough to put up 60-70 points, but I see that as being at least 3 years down the road. This is only my opinion though, but if you think it's more likely Lupul get's a concussion in his first game and Kadri wins the Calder, go ahead.


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If Lupul shifting wings is irrelevant, show me it is by providing the sample I requested above.
Then why haven't you showed me Kadri is able to play RW as well as he can LW? Since a highlights video doesn't count, show me a large sample size where Kadri played RW and did well there. And even that doesn't neccessarily mean he's capable of doing it at the NHL level.



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So the point of using an exception to prove the rule completely went over your head. Gotcha. This is logic 101 VKW... You said Kadri never played RW in his life, I _proved_ otherwise, you admitted you were wrong. Essentially, I used the exception to _disprove_ the rule/perception. Then, you used select YT clips to "prove" Lupul is just as good at RW as he is at LW... Again, what is that in the face of his latest career season at LW, as a PPG player? Nothing. It is instead the exception to _prove_ the rule. Which is the opposite of what I did. Tell me you understand this and restore my faith in humanity.
I'm saying it's unreasonable to ask me to prove Lupul can produce at RW given top-6 minutes, when you've never proven Kadri can produce as well as he has on RW either.

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It's ridiculous to classify an injury prone player as injury prone...
Saying you don't want Lupul because he's injury prone is like me saying Kadri's a bust because he hasn't even made one of the worst teams in the league. Both are unfair statements to make, as there are a lot more factors at play.


Quote:
Question: If you view Lupul as a legit 1st line talent, why would you value Kadri (prospect) + Kulemin (2nd/3rd line tweener) over him? Hmmmm?


Also, how does a legit top line talent get laughed off 3 teams by age 27, the last one trading him as a salary dump?
Answer 1: Answered previously, the combined offense of Kadri and Kulemin, coupled with Kulemin's two-way game and physicality, tilt it slightly in their favour, but not by much. Just because I say Lupul > Kadri doesn't mean I'd prefer Lupul to Kadri + anyone else.

Answer 2: In Philly(Aged 24/25), Lupul was a legit top-6 player, on pace for almost 60 points/82 games in his two seasons there. He was then stuck on the third line in Anaheim, and had tension with Carlyle, so got traded.

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Lastly, forget Booth. Kesler is the best player on the 2nd line, and Lupul would be his linemate, and he (Kesler) is not as good as Kessel offensively.
Why on earth should we only compare Kesler-Kessel and not Booth-Bozak? Lupul will be generating chances for both Kesler and Booth. And again, you don't think given PP time with the Sedins is as good as playing with Kessel?

I hadn't realized that Kessel was this good, somehow magicaly transforming a tweener winger(same definition I'd give Higgins) into a PPG player, while his centre remains a 40s point player.

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11-22-2012, 12:36 PM
  #57
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Because GMs can be taken at their word now? By the way, does Burke believe or not believe in a rebuild? Or is he still adamant about not trading Schenn? Or is he still spewing crap about fair deals after taking ANA and CGY to the cleaners? Or maybe he should keep talking about not wanting to make the playoffs just to be punted out instead of you know, actually making the playoffs at all? Or maybe he should blather on about BDCs while calling up Gillis to ask about Luongo?


Yes, Burke (or any GM for that matter), should be regarded as beacons of honesty. Especially him.
So when each GM said the price was nuts...they were spinning it??

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11-22-2012, 12:44 PM
  #58
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Enough with the sitdown stuff. It was against the CBA to talk to a player who is under contract to another team. Gillis granted permission to FLA because that is Luongo's 1st choice. I have yet to see ANY other team get a "sit down". Why would Burke need a sit down? It's not like he needs to know if Luongo will resign...not like he needs to know whether Luongo will play here, i'm pretty sure that Luongo would tell Gillis he wouldn't the minute talks started with TO.

And by the way, Burke didn't stop. Going by rumours (all we have), he offered Schenn, he offered Komi,Kuli and a 1st...he may have offered more. I get that Gillis declined.Why is Burke still calling?? Maybe he's hoping Gillis has sobered up by now.


Burke is still calling because he has an apparent need and Gillis has the only clear solution. Everyone knows it. Even drunk Gillis. But inebriated as he is, he has the common sense not to accept those low offers. Can you blame him? They aren't in line with what Luongo is worth, but I'm sure Burke knew this before tabling them? I mean, he would have to know what goalies are valued at right?



The sitdown is _very_ important. It signifies if Burke is a player or a pretender. No GM would begrudge the opportunity to communicate with a coveted player, if allowed to do so by the opposing GM. They would be foolish not to. They could sell their vision and relay their plans. Seems pretty straight forward...It's just that of all the teams, TO has the greatest need, but they haven't done enough to even warrant the honour.



It has to be price vs. the ideal destination. FLA is the ideal destination for Lu, so they got an immediate sit down. For any other team to get the same honour, price is the factor. And judging by the lack of a sit down by any team, they haven't gotten close. But with saying that, TO has the greatest need of all teams, so for them not to get a sit down shows that they are still pretending to behave like the other teams, when Gillis & Burke _know_ they aren't in the same boat. This is the idiocy on the part of Burke. In a time where he _has_to_ differentiate his team among the offers he has utterly failed to do so... Burke is repeating his old pattern.

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11-22-2012, 12:51 PM
  #59
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Burke is still calling because he has an apparent need and Gillis has the only clear solution. Everyone knows it. Even drunk Gillis. But inebriated as he is, he has the common sense not to accept those low offers. Can you blame him? They aren't in line with what Luongo is worth, but I'm sure Burke knew this before tabling them? I mean, he would have to know what goalies are valued at right?



The sitdown is _very_ important. It signifies if Burke is a player or a pretender. No GM would begrudge the opportunity to communicate with a coveted player, if allowed to do so by the opposing GM. They would be foolish not to. They could sell their vision and relay their plans. Seems pretty straight forward...It's just that of all the teams, TO has the greatest need, but they haven't done enough to even warrant the honour.



It has to be price vs. the ideal destination. FLA is the ideal destination for Lu, so they got an immediate sit down. For any other team to get the same honour, price is the factor. And judging by the lack of a sit down by any team, they haven't gotten close. But with saying that, TO has the greatest need of all teams, so for them not to get a sit down shows that they are still pretending to behave like the other teams, when Gillis & Burke _know_ they aren't in the same boat. This is the idiocy on the part of Burke. In a time where he _has_to_ differentiate his team among the offers he has utterly failed to do so... Burke is repeating his old pattern.
So, i guess when there is something to compete with ie: an offer Gillis sees worthy, Burke will know what he's up against. Until then, what is the sense of paying a massive price?

As far as a sit down, i could care less. I don't think Luongo needs anything explained to him. This isn't a situation like Schultz,Nash or Richards were multiple teans were trying to woo said player. The hope for Van is that there are at least a few teams to pit against each other.


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11-22-2012, 12:51 PM
  #60
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So when each GM said the price was nuts...they were spinning it??

Let's put it this way, I can't believe you took that as anything more than bargaining via the media. But live and learn I guess.

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11-22-2012, 12:52 PM
  #61
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So, i guess when there is something to compete with ie: an offer Gillis sees worthy, Burke will know what he's up against. Until then, what is the sense of paying a massive price?


How is Burke going to see what he is up against, as in the exact pieces, _and_ be afforded enough to time to effectively counter a black box value?

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11-22-2012, 12:55 PM
  #62
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100% bingo...and here is your problem, when the only buyers are people (teams) without the money (pieces available you feel are worthy), that car is gonna sit there for a while.
You have the pieces, just not the motivation to buy the car. Take pieces you have made available and go buy a hyundai... you'll wish you had paid the price for the Mercedes.

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11-22-2012, 12:59 PM
  #63
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So when each GM said the price was nuts...they were spinning it??
Did they say it was nuts or just high? Honestly can't remember.

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11-22-2012, 01:01 PM
  #64
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How is Burke going to see what he is up against, as in the exact pieces, _and_ be afforded enough to time to effectively counter a black box value?
Well, one would assume with Gillis having the knowledge of TO's need that before accepting anything (assuming he could get better from Burke), he would contact Burke.

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11-22-2012, 01:02 PM
  #65
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Did they say it was nuts or just high? Honestly can't remember.
Tallon literally laughed when he was asked about the asking price. Burke who knows how to play the media seemed genuinly shocked.

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11-22-2012, 01:04 PM
  #66
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Again, i'll ask, what goalies were made available to him that he "devalued" enough to pass on?
It was more like choosing the cheap way out and calling Kevin Weekes the "goalie of the future". He doesn't seem to have an eye for goaltender talent.

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11-22-2012, 01:09 PM
  #67
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You have the pieces, just not the motivation to buy the car. Take pieces you have made available and go buy a hyundai... you'll wish you had paid the price for the Mercedes.
If we keep guys like Gardiner, Reilly and our 1st in a stacked draft, i can assure you my heart won't be broken. Would i like Luongo sure, but the cost for the team and it's long term future must be right. Keep in mind that i have proposed things like our 1st, Lupul, Kadri,Colborne and combinations of other things so i'm not a typical lowballer.

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11-22-2012, 01:11 PM
  #68
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Wash, rinse, repeat.

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11-22-2012, 01:11 PM
  #69
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If we keep guys like Gardiner, Reilly and our 1st in a stacked draft, i can assure you my heart won't be broken. Would i like Luongo sure, but the cost for the team and it's long term future must be right. Keep in mind that i have proposed things like our 1st, Lupul, Kadri,Colborne and combinations of other things so i'm not a typical lowballer.
No Komi?! The deal is off!

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11-22-2012, 01:11 PM
  #70
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It was more like choosing the cheap way out and calling Kevin Weekes the "goalie of the future". He doesn't seem to have an eye for goaltender talent.
Lol...so you'd have been happier had he said "he's a piece of crap"? Come on guys, be specific. If you are going to continually state these things, tell me what he could/should have done. Who was available to him....who did he pass on...what should he have paid?

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11-22-2012, 01:13 PM
  #71
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Wash, rinse, repeat.
FLA
EDM
TOR
CHI
SJ

For lack of boring you with the wash, rinse and repeat, feel free to tell me what you think is "fair" value from each team.

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11-22-2012, 01:15 PM
  #72
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No Komi?! The deal is off!
Even i understand Komi's value.

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11-22-2012, 01:20 PM
  #73
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Lol...so you'd have been happier had he said "he's a piece of crap"? Come on guys, be specific. If you are going to continually state these things, tell me what he could/should have done. Who was available to him....who did he pass on...what should he have paid?
Then how do you explain how Nonis and Gillis have managed to find goaltenders in the draft that aren't a sieve, in a shorter amount of time than Burke had?

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11-22-2012, 01:20 PM
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Even i understand Komi's value.
I think we should just discuss the worst deal Vancouver can get for Luongo, so we have something new to talk about...

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11-22-2012, 01:25 PM
  #75
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"If you're going to come here and tell Canuck fans what Luongo is worth and that they're wrong, word of advice; Don't." I thought this is clear, not sure why some leaf fan can still be here trying to correct us what Luongo is worth.

Anyways, what if we trade Schneider instead?

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