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Old
11-22-2012, 10:20 AM
  #901
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Most of those owners didn't make millions and billions because of the hockey team they purchased, so why the hell should they share it with them?
It means there's no sense in accusing wealthy players of throwing a pity party, while not mentioning that the owners (who decided this lockout would be a good idea) will also be more then fine.

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11-22-2012, 10:24 AM
  #902
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I hope Brendan Shanahan takes note, Eric Cole said he would go after Hamrlik if he was playing against him.

So much for Josh Gorges having a secret conversation with Hamrlik when Eric Cole blabs about it in his interview.

Gorges & Cole need to be schooled and maybe pick up a text book and learn that we live in a democracy. Apparently the NHLPA doesn't want opinions from all their members.

Am I wrong or is Donald Fehr the only one getting paid in this lock out?

Bettman and Daley I believe aren't. The owners and players aren't.

No wonder Fehr is in no rush to settle this, if it is the case he is the only one getting paid.

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11-22-2012, 10:33 AM
  #903
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They'll have as little as players did before union organization, back in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s. No millions whatsoever, but still a few chicks.
Yeah you're right. Then I bet next CBA Bettman is going to force players to play 40 hours a week, with no equipment. He's going to force them to score points for food. All fights must end in death, and they'll have to travel by foot to their next game.

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Who are "you guys?" Where does "chicks to bang" enter the conversation? How is the CBA meant to protect the BOG against bad management decisions? "Nut hugging?"

And yet, this post is very fun to read in angry drunk voice. Keep that venom coming (nevermind if you actually know where you mean to direct it)!
You guys are everyone like the poster I quoted above who refuse to admit both parties are at fault here. Bettman is basically a slave owner at this point according to them.

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11-22-2012, 10:37 AM
  #904
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
It means there's no sense in accusing wealthy players of throwing a pity party, while not mentioning that the owners (who decided this lockout would be a good idea) will also be more then fine.
Bettman and the owners also wanted to start negotiations last year but the PA and Fehr refused so don't say they wanted this.

Yes the owners will be more then fine with it but let me ask you the player that makes 2 million a year but from now on will make 1.6 is going to have problems?

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Old
11-22-2012, 10:39 AM
  #905
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Nothing wrong with Cole's opinion...

or with Hammer's...

A struggle like this is always going to cause disagreements in the approach. Its inevitable.

BUT... the players are going to be mighty pissed when the season gets shut down.

Fehr will have to answer for that one.

Ps. Personally, I am seriously missing hockey (pre-game, game, and post-game)... but I am slowly getting used to it... and adapting my routine.

Watch out NHLPA!

Fans can learn to live without you.

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Old
11-22-2012, 10:44 AM
  #906
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Originally Posted by old scotia View Post
Gorges & Cole need to be schooled and maybe pick up a text book and learn that we live in a democracy. Apparently the NHLPA doesn't want opinions from all their members.
I'm sure the PA is fine with hearing opinions internally. Dissent via the media is something completely different as it negatively impacts everyone in the union. What Hamrlik did was completely selfish and hurt every other player in the PA. Has nothing to do with democracy. If anything, democracy is the foundation that allowed labour unions to exist in the first place.

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11-22-2012, 10:47 AM
  #907
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Bettman and the owners also wanted to start negotiations last year but the PA and Fehr refused so don't say they wanted this.

Yes the owners will be more then fine with it but let me ask you the player that makes 2 million a year but from now on will make 1.6 is going to have problems?
Now that we are still locked out at the end of November, do you really believe earlier negotiating was going to lead to a resolution? This lockout is about using lost wages and revenue to put pressure on the other side.

No, NHL players will have plenty of money too. Everyone involved is rich, some richer than others. But for some reason, posters here mention player wealth much more than they do owner wealth. Maybe because it's more public, especially with the cap, I don't know. Even the most casual fans know Gomez's cap hit, but the most intense fans don't know Molson's earnings. Whatever the reason, the argument that "players make a lot of money, so the owners must be right" is misleading.

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11-22-2012, 10:49 AM
  #908
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
I'm sure the PA is fine with hearing opinions internally. Dissent via the media is something completely different as it negatively impacts everyone in the union. What Hamrlik did was completely selfish and hurt every other player in the PA. Has nothing to do with democracy. If anything, democracy is the foundation that allowed labour unions to exist in the first place.
Suggesting to have an internal vote is completely selfish? I learn something every day it seems.

As it stands if the PA was well organized they would have the system to vote on every proposal made by the owners. Welcome to the 21st century.

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11-22-2012, 10:51 AM
  #909
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
I'm sure the PA is fine with hearing opinions internally. Dissent via the media is something completely different as it negatively impacts everyone in the union. What Hamrlik did was completely selfish and hurt every other player in the PA. Has nothing to do with democracy. If anything, democracy is the foundation that allowed labour unions to exist in the first place.
Fehr, going back to his days in the MLB, has always encouraged players to state their opinons on labour negotiations publically.

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11-22-2012, 10:52 AM
  #910
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Maybe they can sell their 3.5 million dollar house and live in a 300 000 like everyone else. I really hope the NHL screws the PA even more, don't even care if we have no hockey for a year or 2. I can't stand Fehr
lest not forget these whiney, *****ey, greedy, selfish millionnaires are in a fight against good, generous, compassionates, altruistic (?) billionnaires...

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Old
11-22-2012, 10:57 AM
  #911
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There are a lot of people in this world who make a very good living working for companies that don't employ unionized workers. They get fair pay, they have solid pension pension/savings plans, good medical benefits, and so on. On the other hand, there have been a great many workers who have lost their jobs and pensions despite being members of strong unions.

There isn't a 1 to 1 correlation between job security, level of pay, pension benefits etc, and being a member of a union.

The surest way that union members can jeopardize their long term future is by demanding more than their employer can afford or by undermining the industry in which they work.

The one thing that seems to be happening is that the players are stumbling toward a PR disaster if they don't learn to keep inflammatory comments under control
The other difference is unlike most unions (there are other exceptions), sports unions are supposed to be representing people with radically different interests. Sidney Crosby, Brandon Prust and Petteri Nokelainen might both play the form of worker, in that they own only their own labour and not the means of production (if you can consider playing hockey a form of production), but their interests are often at odds.

While the owners might not deserve to be bailed out from overspending in principle, overpaying players becomes the only way to attract impact players. And these overpaid players are the guys who stand to lose the most from rollbacks, since they are the ones with long term contracts.

On the other hand, if the status quo remains the same, the type of guys who aren't going to retire with 10s of millions in the banks, the role players, are going to end up making less to compensate for paying the star players whatever the max is. The fringe players who live on short term contracts aren't going to win here.

So when Cole and Gorges pretend to care about the future, keep in mind that both are under contract for the rest of their productive careers, in both cases probably a year over their value. Not saying they didn't earn it, considering both are sacrificing their bodies considering their play styles, but both have contracts that were only possible under the current CBA and are closer to the upper class of NHL players than they pretend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
lest not forget these whiney, *****ey, greedy, selfish millionnaires are in a fight against good, generous, compassionates, altruistic (?) billionnaires...
Why does there have to be one good side in this? Both sides are greedy, this is about two things - money and ego. But like it or not, the way the league is constructed, it's the owners who have the leverage here since they are the ones who invested to begin with.


Last edited by Et le But: 11-22-2012 at 11:09 AM.
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Old
11-22-2012, 11:01 AM
  #912
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Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
Suggesting to have an internal vote is completely selfish? I learn something every day it seems.

As it stands if the PA was well organized they would have the system to vote on every proposal made by the owners. Welcome to the 21st century.
When did I say or even imply that? I'm referring to his quote:

"We have to push Fehr to the wall to get the deal. Time is against us. We lost [one-quarter] of the season, it is $425 million. Who will give it back to us? Mr. Fehr?"

How does this help his fellow union members at all? I have no problem if he suggested to have an internal vote, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but his comment was selfish and damaging.

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Old
11-22-2012, 11:02 AM
  #913
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Bettman and the owners also wanted to start negotiations last year but the PA and Fehr refused so don't say they wanted this.

Yes the owners will be more then fine with it but let me ask you the player that makes 2 million a year but from now on will make 1.6 is going to have problems?
Do you seriously think it would have changed anything if they start discussing last year? The lockout is a negotiation tactic from the owners. You think the players would give the concessions they are giving now if they start negotiation last year?

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11-22-2012, 11:12 AM
  #914
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So when Cole and Gorges pretend to care about the future, keep in mind that both are under contract for the rest of their productive careers, in both cases probably a year over their value.
I agree with this. I found Cole's comment about sacrificing for the future odd. When the union agrees to going down to 50% within a few years, but stands it's ground on current contracts and the "make whole" process, it seems to me that it is choosing the interests of players currently under contract over those of future players. I completely understand wanting signed contracts honored, but that's not about the kids.

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11-22-2012, 11:15 AM
  #915
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
I'm sure the PA is fine with hearing opinions internally. Dissent via the media is something completely different as it negatively impacts everyone in the union. What Hamrlik did was completely selfish and hurt every other player in the PA. Has nothing to do with democracy. If anything, democracy is the foundation that allowed labour unions to exist in the first place.
They're okay with their players going off on Bettman and Daly over twitter though?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Do you seriously think it would have changed anything if they start discussing last year? The lockout is a negotiation tactic from the owners. You think the players would give the concessions they are giving now if they start negotiation last year?
If they didn't lockout though, and hadn't reached an agreement by the playoffs, the players would go on strike. Before these negotiations started I would have said anyone was crazy for suggesting hockey players would go on strike into the playoffs, now I'm 100% sure they would. These guys are bitter, and considering their grammar, and name calling they've resorted too, most of them aren't very smart. "sorry guys someone hacked my twitter account"

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11-22-2012, 11:22 AM
  #916
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Originally Posted by Protest the Hero View Post
They're okay with their players going off on Bettman and Daly over twitter though?
I'm sure the PA would prefer if players just shut their yaps altogether. But they are entitled to their opinions, however selfish and counterproductive they are.

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11-22-2012, 11:22 AM
  #917
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If they didn't lockout though, and hadn't reached an agreement by the playoffs, the players would go on strike. Before these negotiations started I would have said anyone was crazy for suggesting hockey players would go on strike into the playoffs, now I'm 100% sure they would. These guys are bitter, and considering their grammar, and name calling they've resorted too, most of them aren't very smart. "sorry guys someone hacked my twitter account"
Why would they strike? Their first offer contained major concessions compared to the previous CBA

edit: I realize my point might not be clear. A strike would mean the players refusing to play for 57% of HRR. Given the union immediately agreed to less than that, I cant see an incentive to strike.


Last edited by Roulin: 11-22-2012 at 11:30 AM.
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11-22-2012, 11:24 AM
  #918
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**** Cole, Gorges, Prust and all the other players who are responsible for this lockout. I don't even give a ****, this lockout can last 5 years. Seeing these greedy players whine and lose money is worth it.

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Old
11-22-2012, 11:43 AM
  #919
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
When did I say or even imply that? I'm referring to his quote:

"We have to push Fehr to the wall to get the deal. Time is against us. We lost [one-quarter] of the season, it is $425 million. Who will give it back to us? Mr. Fehr?"

How does this help his fellow union members at all? I have no problem if he suggested to have an internal vote, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but his comment was selfish and damaging.
Fair enough, except if you consider his opinion selfish, you pretty much have to consider all players' opinions as being selfish no? What makes the difference? Whether other players share the same opinion as Hammer? Lets see with a vote who are the selfish ones...

I just happen to think that Hammer isn't the one trying to bully other players in his corner and that doesn't rhyme with selfish to me.

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11-22-2012, 11:44 AM
  #920
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I'm sure the PA would prefer if players just shut their yaps altogether. But they are entitled to their opinions, however selfish and counterproductive they are.
That's the point. These guys are going after Hamrlik now because he voiced his opinion, and because it's different than theirs, guys are allowed to threaten him?

Cole produced those "puck bettman" hats, and some of his fellow PA members said he should stop, but he's going to continue making them anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
Why would they strike? Their first offer contained major concessions compared to the previous CBA

edit: I realize my point might not be clear. A strike would mean the players refusing to play for 57% of HRR. Given the union immediately agreed to less than that, I cant see an incentive to strike.
I see what you mean. Either way we'd be here next year because then there would never be any reason for the players to negotiate if they're always getting what they want.

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11-22-2012, 12:35 PM
  #921
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huh, I may be wrong but I think it's the league that put the players in lockout, not the other way around
The PA represents the players, not the league. The league doesn't care about Hamrlik, but the PA should.

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11-22-2012, 12:43 PM
  #922
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Why would they strike? Their first offer contained major concessions compared to the previous CBA

edit: I realize my point might not be clear. A strike would mean the players refusing to play for 57% of HRR. Given the union immediately agreed to less than that, I cant see an incentive to strike.
It the strike took place just before the playoffs they would be eligible for the majority of their contracts. It is the playoffs where the league makes money and that money helps to pay the regular season salaries. The players make minimal money compared to the regular season and striking just before the playoffs would give the NHLPA all of the leverage.

That would be the incentive for a strike at that time.

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11-22-2012, 01:12 PM
  #923
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Mark Spector Sports
‏@SportsnetSpec 11m Luv guys like Erik Cole, referencing hard-earned gains in last lockout. Didn't NHLPA roll over, then get rich from NHL revenues building?


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11-22-2012, 01:13 PM
  #924
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"I’ve been in the league for 20 years, faced three lockouts.Only 14 guys have done that. I’ve earned right to say what I think."R.Hamrlik

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11-22-2012, 01:16 PM
  #925
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Yeah you're right. Then I bet next CBA Bettman is going to force players to play 40 hours a week, with no equipment. He's going to force them to score points for food. All fights must end in death, and they'll have to travel by foot to their next game.



You guys are everyone like the poster I quoted above who refuse to admit both parties are at fault here. Bettman is basically a slave owner at this point according to them.
No, they'll just end up having the same working conditions and pay as in the 1950s.

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