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12'-13' Draft Thread: Drouin & Monahan are LR's pick, what are yours?

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Old
11-22-2012, 12:04 PM
  #351
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http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...ember/1719797/

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We probably spend more time shuffling our rankings in November than any other month of the season.

That's because with the Canadian Hockey League campaign now two months old, and the first round of tournaments from "International Week" in the books, our scouts have finally had a chance to see most of the prospects — including some we were unfamiliar with before September.

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11-22-2012, 12:10 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
I really have no idea what your trying to say here

The only player ahead of Pulock in defensive scoring is Kichen.

Pulock is outscoring Rielly, Pouliot, Reinhart, Dumba, Murray. All guys 1 draft year before him. That's pretty impressive to me, given Brandon is a team as weak as Moose Jaw is.

One would think Rielly would be the best scoring D man in the WHL with his skills.

So given that Pulock produces points, and the chances Rielly creates, it stands to reason they would compliment each other rather well.

And Reilly's points totals would improve, to reflect his play.

Let me know if you still don't understand, I will draw pictures to illustrate.

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11-22-2012, 12:23 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Best player available is not subjective you guys, it's simple, you are drafting the best player you believe that is, regardless of position.

What's subjective about this?
How do you think BPA is determined?

Well, it's determined by the ideas, and beliefs, of individuals who have formed an opinion of a player by watching them. Each scout/GM is going to have a different criteria, different view, and their own opinion on who is BPA at any given choice.

If you can tell me how that is NOT subjective, I'll stop posting on this board.

"Adj. 1. subjective - taking place within the mind and modified by individual bias; "a subjective judgment"

Also, a few pages back, when talking about the ability/IQ argument, you had mentioned Alexandre Daigle. Well, see, Daigle didn't fizzle out because of IQ. He didn't fizzle out because of lack of talent, either. It was because after receiving the most massive signing bonus the league had ever seen (12.5 million, which in turn helped cause the first work stoppage), he just didn't have the desire to work on his game. He moved to Hollywood, dated Pamela Anderson, and came back later, only to move to Europe and play. See, he had it all, except the WANT to play the game. Your idea that he didn't have the hockey IQ for the game is completely false. To further this, he even said in an interview, that he didn't really want to play hockey after junior, and only did because he was so good at it. Had he actually had the desire to work on his game, he probably would've written a different story for himself.

"That's very arguable, ever hear of a former 1st overall pick in Alexandre Daigle? Ability yes, IQ zilch. Many more examples of this, you should know this. It's so wrong that ability trumps IQ, fact is there's more to it that these 2 variables."


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11-22-2012, 12:45 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
The only player ahead of Pulock in defensive scoring is Kichen.

Pulock is outscoring Rielly, Pouliot, Reinhart, Dumba, Murray. All guys 1 draft year before him. That's pretty impressive to me, given Brandon is a team as weak as Moose Jaw is.

One would think Rielly would be the best scoring D man in the WHL with his skills.

So given that Pulock produces points, and the chances Rielly creates, it stands to reason they would compliment each other rather well.

And Reilly's points totals would improve, to reflect his play.

Let me know if you still don't understand, I will draw pictures to illustrate.
Did you watch them together at the SSS? They did not look good together at all, and despite what the points may say Rielly was head and shoulders the better player.

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11-22-2012, 01:13 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by BBurke View Post
Did you watch them together at the SSS? They did not look good together at all, and despite what the points may say Rielly was head and shoulders the better player.
I thought Pulock had a great showing. He didn't try to do to much (unlike MacKinnon in his first game) and you have to remember he's playing with people mostly a year older than him.

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11-22-2012, 01:24 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
How do you think BPA is determined?

Well, it's determined by the ideas, and beliefs, of individuals who have formed an opinion of a player by watching them. Each scout/GM is going to have a different criteria, different view, and their own opinion on who is BPA at any given choice.

If you can tell me how that is NOT subjective, I'll stop posting on this board.

"Adj. 1. subjective - taking place within the mind and modified by individual bias; "a subjective judgment"

Also, a few pages back, when talking about the ability/IQ argument, you had mentioned Alexandre Daigle. Well, see, Daigle didn't fizzle out because of IQ. He didn't fizzle out because of lack of talent, either. It was because after receiving the most massive signing bonus the league had ever seen (12.5 million, which in turn helped cause the first work stoppage), he just didn't have the desire to work on his game. He moved to Hollywood, dated Pamela Anderson, and came back later, only to move to Europe and play. See, he had it all, except the WANT to play the game. Your idea that he didn't have the hockey IQ for the game is completely false. To further this, he even said in an interview, that he didn't really want to play hockey after junior, and only did because he was so good at it. Had he actually had the desire to work on his game, he probably would've written a different story for himself.

"That's very arguable, ever hear of a former 1st overall pick in Alexandre Daigle? Ability yes, IQ zilch. Many more examples of this, you should know this. It's so wrong that ability trumps IQ, fact is there's more to it that these 2 variables."
I am speaking about hockey terminology, and what is widely perceived when a GM or scout says "Best Player Available" this means Best player regardless of position or need of the hockey club.

Obcourse scouts will differ on who this is, what you are referring to is the process arriving at who is BPA. Player evaluation.

When Burke said he was drafting the BPA last year, this is what he did. He had Rielly at #1, could have drafted a fwd, even a Center, but didn't. Thus he took what he thought was the best player available.

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11-22-2012, 01:32 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by NaiveLeafsFan View Post
I thought Pulock had a great showing. He didn't try to do to much (unlike MacKinnon in his first game) and you have to remember he's playing with people mostly a year older than him.
I thought he allowed Morgan to shine, by not getting in his way. Again Morgan didn't look as good without him in game 2. I asked at the time was it a coincidence? No one was sure, but people who understand the game, know you can't put Paul Coffey with Lidstrom. He played with Huddy and it was a great team. It's why perhaps Suter and Weber are so great together, both get the puck just the right amount to compliment each other.

Rielly needs a partner that can put up points without carrying the mail, because that will take his strength away. Pulock did what he was supposed to do in that game, get Reilly the puck and hope to get it back for his big shot, in a way I wish he had been teamed up with Reinhart. Think he could have showcased himself better in a one game audition.

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11-22-2012, 01:34 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
I am speaking about hockey terminology, and what is widely perceived when a GM or scout says "Best Player Available" this means Best player regardless of position or need of the hockey club.

Obcourse scouts will differ on who this is, what you are referring to is the process arriving at who is BPA. Player evaluation.

When Burke said he was drafting the BPA last year, this is what he did. He had Rielly at #1, could have drafted a fwd, even a Center, but didn't. Thus he took what he thought was the best player available.
Right, and the process at which he arrived to his determination that Rielly was the BPA at #5, was through subjective evaluation and judgement.

To say that need never comes into this isn't true, because if you have a case where you rate say..... Jones and Barkov even, in the Leafs' case, you should take Barkov, because your back-end has been supplimented adequately with high picks, over the course of the last few years. We have taken Rielly and Percy in the 1st, Blacker and Finn in the second. During that time, we've taken Kadri and Biggs in the 1st, and Ryan and Ross in the second round. In this case, we haven't used a pick on a player that is projected to fill the gap at 1C, despite having the opportunity to last year with Grigorenko. If we had Jones and Barkov available, the SMART choice in this situation, is to take Barkov and run. That way you add the elite piece up front to build around.

Need does come into deciding BPA, when most things are even between prospects. Not always, but in some situations, it has to be considered. I just hope we have that luxioury this year.

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11-22-2012, 01:35 PM
  #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
The only player ahead of Pulock in defensive scoring is Kichen.

Pulock is outscoring Rielly, Pouliot, Reinhart, Dumba, Murray. All guys 1 draft year before him. That's pretty impressive to me, given Brandon is a team as weak as Moose Jaw is.

One would think Rielly would be the best scoring D man in the WHL with his skills.

So given that Pulock produces points, and the chances Rielly creates, it stands to reason they would compliment each other rather well.

And Reilly's points totals would improve, to reflect his play.

Let me know if you still don't understand, I will draw pictures to illustrate.
I didnt say anything about younger players being better, if a player is among the eldest in his draft class it means he has more development and more high leauge exposure. Just think at 5 months younger Rielly and Pulock have played the same number of seasons in the WHL despite being different draft classes (Pulock actually has more GP). With experience comes improvment, so about half of the 2013 draft should be compared to Pulocks stats last season (which were still very good) as he is at a similar point (actually further in some cases) in development as 2012 draftees.

Reilly also has less points because he is a play making D. Its well known that his shot is his only weakness, and the fact that none of his teammates can finish will hurt his point totals. Pulock on the other hand has the best shot in the league and therefore does not need to rely on teammates to finish for him.

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11-22-2012, 01:47 PM
  #360
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So I really don't know much about Valeri, anyone want to give me some input?

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11-22-2012, 03:16 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
And you are a fanboy of Barkov. :laugh

And everyone on here was a Gally fanboy last year, except me, man I am glad the Habs passed on Rielly.

I knew Burke wouldn't draft a Russian or even a half one.

Comeone man, we all have our favorites, mostly because we all see different things in a prospect we love.

Pulock is the best offensive D man in the draft, that is an impact prospect to me. He's so good he is outscoring Rielly, Murray, and Dumba this year. That's impactful when you look at the D in the WHL.
Because Galchenyuk is doing so badly right now? I love Rielly, but it's a little early to be saying the Habs made the wrong move. Galchenyuk looks very good still.

Again, you're taking this too personally. I never said Pulock is bad, or even that he can't be an impact player. I just said he's not top 5 good. And I stick by that. He's not a better prospect than MacKinnon, Jones, Lindholm, Barkov or Monahan.

And it's not like I'm exactly out of line saying that. I mean for a guy that was so adamant about what scouts were thinking last year about certain players when they were falling, it seems a little odd that your ignoring what they are saying now.

Barkov is top 6 is virtually every list, Lindholm is similar, and not a single one has Pulock anywhere in that range.

Future Considerations have Barkov 3rd, Monahan 4th, Lindholm 5th, Pulock 8th.

ISS's most recent list has Barkov 3rd, Monahan 5th, Lindholm at 10th and Pulock at 15th.

Woodlief of RLR has Barkov at 5th, Monahan at 4th, Lindholm at 6th and Pulock at 8th.

McKenzie's list, which albeit is the least recent of this list, has Barkov at 6th, Monahan at 3rd, Lindholm at 5th and Pulock not even ranked in the top 10.

Even one of your favourite draft guys Craig Button doesn't have him anywhere above 8th. His most recent list has Barkov 3rd, Lindholm 4th, Monahan at 6th and Pulock at 9th.

And even in the most recent CSS rankings, Pulock isn't above Shinkaruk. He's not even top 3 in the WHL rankings, let alone above the best prospect the Q, O, FEL, SEL might have to offer.

Saying that Pulock at 5 is not BPA and he isn't top 5 isn't wrong. In fact it appears that almost every list seems to agree. He hasn't appeared past 8 in any list and in fact seems to be falling behind some of the other dman in this draft, with Nurse getting some list recognition above him, Morrisey making a push, and what I expect to see happening with Shea Theodore soon too.

Edit: I forgot about Ristolainen. He's occasionally above Pulock.


Last edited by theIceWookie: 11-22-2012 at 03:46 PM. Reason: Forgot about Ristolainen
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11-22-2012, 03:22 PM
  #362
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I thought he allowed Morgan to shine, by not getting in his way. Again Morgan didn't look as good without him in game 2. I asked at the time was it a coincidence? No one was sure, but people who understand the game, know you can't put Paul Coffey with Lidstrom. He played with Huddy and it was a great team. It's why perhaps Suter and Weber are so great together, both get the puck just the right amount to compliment each other.

Rielly needs a partner that can put up points without carrying the mail, because that will take his strength away. Pulock did what he was supposed to do in that game, get Reilly the puck and hope to get it back for his big shot, in a way I wish he had been teamed up with Reinhart. Think he could have showcased himself better in a one game audition.
That is a highly suspect assumption you're making that is was a coincidence that Rielly played worse that game BECAUSE he wasn't paired with Pulock. It could go any to perfectly honest.

Of course Rielly could play well with that type of player. But what's to say he could do it with another type of player? Again you're making a huge assumption that he does.

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11-22-2012, 03:36 PM
  #363
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My top 5 by position, in terms of who I want for the Leafs:

Center:
1. MacKinnon/Barkov (Dead heat for me)
2. Elias Lindholm
3. Sean Monahan
4. JT Compher
5. Ryan Kujawinski

Wing:
1. Jonathan Drouin
2. Valeri Nichushkin
3. Hunter Shinkaruk
4. Hudson Fasching
5. Adam Erne/Anthony Duclair (also dead heat)

Defense:
1. Seth Jones
2. Rasmus Ristolainen
3. Darnell Nurse
4. Ryan Pulock
5. Josh Morrissy

Goalies:
1. Zachary Fucale
2. Eric Comrie
3. Brenden Burke
4. Ville Husso
5. Spencer Martin

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11-22-2012, 03:53 PM
  #364
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So far top 5 for me.
Mackinnon
Jones
Barkov
Monahan
Lindholm

The more the season progresses the more it seems like it might be a three way bout for the first spot.

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11-22-2012, 04:03 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
My top 5 by position, in terms of who I want for the Leafs:

Center:
1. MacKinnon/Barkov (Dead heat for me)
2. Elias Lindholm
3. Sean Monahan
4. JT Compher
5. Ryan Kujawinski

Wing:
1. Jonathan Drouin
2. Valeri Nichushkin
3. Hunter Shinkaruk
4. Hudson Fasching
5. Adam Erne/Anthony Duclair (also dead heat)

Defense:
1. Seth Jones
2. Rasmus Ristolainen
3. Darnell Nurse
4. Ryan Pulock
5. Josh Morrissy

Goalies:
1. Zachary Fucale
2. Eric Comrie
3. Brenden Burke
4. Ville Husso
5. Spencer Martin
I like it for the most part, but I would say Fasching/Compher are way too high. Martin should be a top 3 goalie, and I certainly hope you just forgot about Curtis Lazar and are not intentionally placing him below Compher/Kujawinski.


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11-22-2012, 05:01 PM
  #366
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I like it for the most part, but I would say Fasching/Compher are way too high. Martin should be a top 3 goalie, and I certainly hope you just forgot about Curtis Lazar and are not intentionally placing him below Compher/Kujawinski.
Haven't had a real opportunity to get a good look at Lazar to this point. He seems to be rising, and is someone I'll try to get a look at in the near future. I've seen Compher and Kujawinski in person, however, although only once in Compher's case.

Remember though, these are just my personal wants, not necessarily representative of where I rank them. Although, I do believe that Fasching will be a riser, with his combination of size, grit, and skating ability.

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11-22-2012, 06:05 PM
  #367
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Haven't had a real opportunity to get a good look at Lazar to this point. He seems to be rising, and is someone I'll try to get a look at in the near future. I've seen Compher and Kujawinski in person, however, although only once in Compher's case.

Remember though, these are just my personal wants, not necessarily representative of where I rank them. Although, I do believe that Fasching will be a riser, with his combination of size, grit, and skating ability.
It is November with around 22 games played in the draft year.

Previously identified draftees will rise and fall, and new guys will enter the list.

Biggs was top 5 in a midseason Central Scouting ranking and fell to the 20's.

So players now ranked top 5 have no guarantee of being anywhere close to that come June.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/stor...-rankings.html

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Jonathan Huberdeau of the QMJHL's Saint John Sea Dogs was ranked fourth while Tyler Biggs of the U.S. national developmental program placed fifth.

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11-22-2012, 06:18 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
It is November with around 22 games played in the draft year.

Previously identified draftees will rise and fall, and new guys will enter the list.

Biggs was top 5 in a midseason Central Scouting ranking and fell to the 20's.

So players now ranked top 5 have no guarantee of being anywhere close to that come June.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/stor...-rankings.html
Very true, and we're yet to have the WJC's, so there will inevitably be risers and fallers.

Also, it'll be good to see some of these kids in the playoffs/Mem.Cup, and see how they perform when the pressure is on.

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11-23-2012, 07:55 AM
  #369
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Very true, and we're yet to have the WJC's, so there will inevitably be risers and fallers.

Also, it'll be good to see some of these kids in the playoffs/Mem.Cup, and see how they perform when the pressure is on.
Me being the contrarian would disagree.

For most years I would agree with you and Ulf. Prospects slide up and down early in the season.

But I ask you guys.

Just Who on this list is going to slide? Looks like 5 stud prospects to me.

Barkov
Mackinnon
Jones
Monahan
Nichushkin

Highly unlikely.

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11-23-2012, 08:09 AM
  #370
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I thought he allowed Morgan to shine, by not getting in his way. Again Morgan didn't look as good without him in game 2. I asked at the time was it a coincidence? No one was sure, but people who understand the game, know you can't put Paul Coffey with Lidstrom. He played with Huddy and it was a great team. It's why perhaps Suter and Weber are so great together, both get the puck just the right amount to compliment each other.

Rielly needs a partner that can put up points without carrying the mail, because that will take his strength away. Pulock did what he was supposed to do in that game, get Reilly the puck and hope to get it back for his big shot, in a way I wish he had been teamed up with Reinhart. Think he could have showcased himself better in a one game audition.
I see a lot of Phaneuf in Pulocks game. Good offensive guy but as a trigger man, rather than doing it himself.

If Pulock compliments Rielly so well, wouldn't Phaneuf as well?

There's too many good forwards, especially centres, in this draft for us to draft a defenseman in the top 8 or so picks unless its Jones.

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11-23-2012, 08:09 AM
  #371
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Me being the contrarian would disagree.

For most years I would agree with you and Ulf. Prospects slide up and down early in the season.

But I ask you guys.

Just Who on this list is going to slide? Looks like 5 stud prospects to me.

Barkov
Mackinnon
Jones
Monahan
Nichushkin

Highly unlikely.
Isn't Lindholm and Drouin ranked higher on most lists then Nichushkin?

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11-23-2012, 08:15 AM
  #372
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That is a highly suspect assumption you're making that is was a coincidence that Rielly played worse that game BECAUSE he wasn't paired with Pulock. It could go any to perfectly honest.

Of course Rielly could play well with that type of player. But what's to say he could do it with another type of player? Again you're making a huge assumption that he does.
I asked a question so people can discuss an observation, I don't see how asking if it was a coincidence Rielly wasn't as noticable without Pulock as a highly suspect assumption? No one said it was a fact, only that it was possible.

Further I don't see having a strong opinion as a problem here, I think over my time here I have been more right than wrong. I am not saying I am 100% correct, but I think I always try back up my statement with some sort of analyis.

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11-23-2012, 08:18 AM
  #373
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I see a lot of Phaneuf in Pulocks game. Good offensive guy but as a trigger man, rather than doing it himself.

If Pulock compliments Rielly so well, wouldn't Phaneuf as well?

There's too many good forwards, especially centres, in this draft for us to draft a defenseman in the top 8 or so picks unless its Jones.
Pulock has a higher Ice Q than Dion, his shot is better than Dion's. It was timed at 101MPH, but to get away from the speed of the shot, he knows how to use it, and he gets open. Offensively he is better than Dion IMO, if you take away Dion's 2 first years he was a pro. What you are seeing in Dion now, is more what we are likely to see, an approximately 10 goal a year shut down D man.

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11-23-2012, 08:21 AM
  #374
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Isn't Lindholm and Drouin ranked higher on most lists then Nichushkin?
Nichushkin is a very talented player, he is bigger and stronger than Lindholm and Drouin. That carries a lot of weight with GM's and Scouts.

He also has will to impose himself on a game. That's an intangible I like a lot.

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11-23-2012, 08:25 AM
  #375
ULF_55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
I asked a question so people can discuss an observation, I don't see how asking if it was a coincidence Rielly wasn't as noticable without Pulock as a highly suspect assumption? No one said it was a fact, only that it was possible.

Further I don't see having a strong opinion as a problem here, I think over my time here I have been more right than wrong. I am not saying I am 100% correct, but I think I always try back up my statement with some sort of analyis.
I didn't think Rielly's play changed much from game to game. He just looked like he was physically getting beat up playing against a better team. He went to the bench at least twice suffering physically.

I thought he moved the puck well both games, whether head manning it or carrying it.

He lost the puck a couple times, but the ice appeared suspect in game 2.

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