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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VII: The Last Waltz "Cut the sheet & drop the puck!"

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11-22-2012, 12:53 PM
  #501
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Originally Posted by jniklast View Post
I don't really see how the players could think a canceled season would in any way, shape or form help them.
It won't. Which is why Fehr will be in absolutely no hurry to start next season. Next season, when the owners face a prospect of a season where they have sold not a single season ticket, the hand wringing will truly begin for the owners.

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11-22-2012, 01:23 PM
  #502
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Soooo season or no season?

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11-22-2012, 01:58 PM
  #503
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Can someone fill me in on what happened from noon yesterday to where it stands today?

TIA

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11-22-2012, 02:00 PM
  #504
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That's an illusion. It's linked on the good side for the players, but their downside risk is capped.

They want the upside reward without the downside risk.
The main function of the cap is to slow salary growth. The players proposal continues that function

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11-22-2012, 02:01 PM
  #505
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Can someone fill me in on what happened from noon yesterday to where it stands today?

TIA
Here's Fehr's memo detailing his offer:

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409992

The NHL saw the offer and said, and I quote: "Psssshaw". No further talks are scheduled.

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11-22-2012, 02:17 PM
  #506
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The main function of the cap is to slow salary growth. The players proposal continues that function
That's a strawman. I know you're a smart fella and you can see that this "linkage" does nothing for the owners.

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11-22-2012, 02:20 PM
  #507
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Like I said before the meeting yesterday, if the NHLPA proposes something that is different then the NHLs proposal, then Bettman wont even entertain it.

Fact is the NHL is not negotiating in good faith at all, that has been quite obvious from the start with their circus proposal in the summer.

NHLPA needs to decertify as a union and start filing lawsuits against the NHL. The NHL is giving them no other choice at this point. Same thing that the NFLPA and the NBAPA did in their last 2 lockouts.

**** Bettman and the stupid owners. Negotiate in good faith you idiots, you did the same thing in 2004 and you "thought" you had the better deal but it just proved how stupid they were and the players made out.


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11-22-2012, 02:24 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
That's a strawman. I know you're a smart fella and you can see that this "linkage" does nothing for the owners.
Oh that's bull. This linkage does nothing for the owners? Remove it then and see what happens. Without high rates of salary growth, you would never need a cap system in the first place.

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11-22-2012, 02:29 PM
  #509
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That's a strawman. I know you're a smart fella and you can see that this "linkage" does nothing for the owners.
Salaries at 50% of revenue, granted after make whole. You cannot make an honest argument that it does nothing for owners and that is without the coming salary controls.

This would be a negotiating point if the league had any interest in bargaining. They cried about bargaining against themselves... look in the mirror.

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11-22-2012, 02:31 PM
  #510
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Oh that's bull. This linkage does nothing for the owners? Remove it then and see what happens. Without high rates of salary growth, you would never need a cap system in the first place.
Oh absolutely, if we're comparing it to no cap at all it does them a world of good. I wasn't questioning that. But it offers them no benefits over a fixed-dollar share--which they said they would have no interest in entertaining.

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11-22-2012, 02:34 PM
  #511
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Salaries at 50% of revenue, granted after make whole. You cannot make an honest argument that it does nothing for owners and that is without the coming salary controls.
Salary at 50% (plus make whole, yes) as long as revenues increase. Should they decrease, it would be less than 50%.

You can say that's not a big deal because revenues will likely increase, but if it wasn't a big deal the PA would have offered a fully-linked deal by now.

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11-22-2012, 02:44 PM
  #512
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Dbl post

The NHL needs to give the PA a reason to offer full linkage. You gotta remember that the players don't want linkage at all.

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11-22-2012, 02:51 PM
  #513
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Dbl post

The NHL needs to give the PA a reason to offer full linkage. You gotta remember that the players don't want linkage at all.
I don't think anyone's forgotten that.

The NHL doesn't want guaranteed contracts, a salary floor, free agency, arbitration, etc. So?

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11-22-2012, 02:55 PM
  #514
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
I don't think anyone's forgotten that.

The NHL doesn't want guaranteed contracts, a salary floor, free agency, arbitration, etc. So?
The league does want a salary floor. Salary arbitration is a perfect example. The league eliminated the removal of salary arbitration from their proposals and the players have moved towards a true 50%. It's called incentive.

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11-22-2012, 02:57 PM
  #515
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The league does want a salary floor.
What? Why would they want a salary floor?

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11-22-2012, 02:58 PM
  #516
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What? Why would they want a salary floor?
It's possible that it's something that the rich teams want to force poorer teams to at least try to compete.

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11-22-2012, 03:09 PM
  #517
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It won't. Which is why Fehr will be in absolutely no hurry to start next season. Next season, when the owners face a prospect of a season where they have sold not a single season ticket, the hand wringing will truly begin for the owners.
And you think then they'd suddenly offer more than 50% of revenue? I doubt it. 50:50 split in the long rund is all but guaranteed. The only question left on the money side is how to get there. And if there's no season, then the transition gets easier with many contracts running out. And if there's no season next year either, there's not even a need for any transition anymore.

The players will in 3+ years get 50% of revenue regardless what happens. But they won't get a single dollar back for a canceled season.

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11-22-2012, 03:11 PM
  #518
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
It won't. Which is why Fehr will be in absolutely no hurry to start next season. Next season, when the owners face a prospect of a season where they have sold not a single season ticket, the hand wringing will truly begin for the owners.
You keep bringing this up. And it is technically true. But the pressure on the players to not miss two years of wages will be 1000 times more. That is the simple truth behind sports labor negotiations.

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11-22-2012, 04:06 PM
  #519
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It's possible that it's something that the rich teams want to force poorer teams to at least try to compete.
Why would they want teams to try and compete? Hockey is a zero-sum game. There are 1,230 games (well, most years), and 1,230 wins up for grabs. The less real competitors the better. Plus you're forcing a handful of teams to participate more in the UFA market, driving up prices. I think it's far more likely that's it's a player-driven function.

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11-22-2012, 04:08 PM
  #520
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TSN: CAPITALS' NEUVIRTH COMES TO DEFENCE OF TEAMMATE HAMRLIK

Quote:
"I agree 100 percent with Hammer," Neuvirth told TVA Nova Sport in the Czech Republic. "This lockout is not about majority of players, I think. It is about several superstars with big contracts."
This is a full-blown mutiny.


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11-22-2012, 04:19 PM
  #521
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Why would they want teams to try and compete? Hockey is a zero-sum game. There are 1,230 games (well, most years), and 1,230 wins up for grabs. The less real competitors the better. Plus you're forcing a handful of teams to participate more in the UFA market, driving up prices. I think it's far more likely that's it's a player-driven function.
Because the league doesn't just want a cap, they want linkage. You can't have linkage without both a cap and a floor.

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11-22-2012, 04:28 PM
  #522
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Dont see any difference in this then the owners.

Only difference is its MUCH easier to keep 15 owners quiet then keeping all 350 players quiet.

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11-22-2012, 04:35 PM
  #523
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Because the league doesn't just want a cap, they want linkage. You can't have linkage without both a cap and a floor.
You can't?

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Dont see any difference in this then the owners.

Only difference is its MUCH easier to keep 15 owners quiet then keeping all 350 players quiet.
Good, I hope to hear both sides screaming at the top of their lungs.

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11-22-2012, 04:40 PM
  #524
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You can't?.
No, you can't.

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11-22-2012, 04:43 PM
  #525
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Why would they want teams to try and compete? Hockey is a zero-sum game. There are 1,230 games (well, most years), and 1,230 wins up for grabs. The less real competitors the better. Plus you're forcing a handful of teams to participate more in the UFA market, driving up prices. I think it's far more likely that's it's a player-driven function.
But if more teams compete, they might finally make a profit, and I'm not sure how revenue sharing works, but wouldn't that help rich teams not have to pay as much?

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