HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Lockout discussion thread 2.0

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-22-2012, 01:52 PM
  #951
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,511
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
But it's lowered, because of the numerous students/youth having minimum salry job while not working in their ''real'' future job.
That study was for men in their 30s.

DAChampion is offline  
Old
11-22-2012, 01:53 PM
  #952
LyricalLyricist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,282
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Median wage is the more relevant statistic, as it is not effected by a few hundred people making mine figures.
One without the other doesn't tell me much.

1, 1, 1, 10, 11, 12, 13

Median, 10
Mean, 7

6, 7, 8 , 9, 10, 11, 12

Median, 9
Mean, 9

Reason I bring it up is while median is important, what about min wages going up that don't change the median? I mean, context is important.

LyricalLyricist is offline  
Old
11-22-2012, 01:55 PM
  #953
Forsead
Registered User
 
Forsead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Quťbec City
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,225
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
That study was for men in their 30s.
So it's not representative, the society has changed, womens are working more and more, they also create more competition.

You have to take a whole population to come and say that working conditions are decreasing.

Forsead is offline  
Old
11-22-2012, 02:02 PM
  #954
NotProkofievian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,756
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myron Gaines View Post
Gary Betaman is the one who decided to impose the lockout
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myron Gaines View Post
, but the PA doesn't negociate.
Incorrect. Anything other than accepting the Owner's proposals passes for "not negociating" around these parts. Literally, you can see that basic message in some of these geniuses posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myron Gaines View Post
In the end, either he's fired, Buttman's fired or there's a new league.
Actually, no one's getting fired, and we'll still have the NHL.

NotProkofievian is online now  
Old
11-22-2012, 02:03 PM
  #955
NotProkofievian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,756
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
No, I don't think you are...

In a population, let say 1 million, the median would be the salary of the 500 000th person better paid.

If there is 100 000 student earning minimum salary (then again fiction). The median salary will be lower than it should be. Also, It doesn't have the higher paid peoples to ajust the number more to the reality.

Edit : sorry didn't saw you edit.
Yup, had a brain shart. It happens.

NotProkofievian is online now  
Old
11-22-2012, 02:18 PM
  #956
Roulin
Registered User
 
Roulin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Montreal
Posts: 4,242
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HCH View Post
It the strike took place just before the playoffs they would be eligible for the majority of their contracts. It is the playoffs where the league makes money and that money helps to pay the regular season salaries. The players make minimal money compared to the regular season and striking just before the playoffs would give the NHLPA all of the leverage.

That would be the incentive for a strike at that time.
I actually read through the part of the CBA relating to playoff revenue and HRR split recently... unless I'm reading it wrong, players were getting the same 57% of playoff revenue that they were getting from regular season HRR. The notion of players making their money during the regular season and teams making theirs during the playoffs is pre-cost certainty.

Roulin is offline  
Old
11-22-2012, 02:19 PM
  #957
Lars The GOAT Eller
WildGranlund
 
Lars The GOAT Eller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,282
vCash: 500
Send a message via Skype™ to Lars The GOAT Eller
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
You're not only one. Prust's "ruining a nation" comment was laughable.
That's the exact one that prompted that comment

Lars The GOAT Eller is online now  
Old
11-22-2012, 02:20 PM
  #958
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,511
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
One without the other doesn't tell me much.

1, 1, 1, 10, 11, 12, 13

Median, 10
Mean, 7

6, 7, 8 , 9, 10, 11, 12

Median, 9
Mean, 9

Reason I bring it up is while median is important, what about min wages going up that don't change the median? I mean, context is important.
It is common knowledge that the direction of the skew is toward higher incomes, and not lower incomes as in your example. The correct list a lot more like is 1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2 2,2,7,89, where the mean is substantially higher than the median.

It is also common knowledge that minimum wage has collapsed in real terms, over the decades.

DAChampion is offline  
Old
11-22-2012, 03:25 PM
  #959
Craig71
Registered User
 
Craig71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,865
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whereabouts Unknown View Post
Gene Principe ‏@GenePrincipe
"Iíve been in the league for 20 years, faced three lockouts.Only 14 guys have done that. Iíve earned right to say what I think."R.Hamrlik
Finally, somebody from the players actually makes an intelligent comment about the lockout. I would also love to hear from Don Cherry on the topic of Canadian Players going to Europe during the lockout and taking away the jobs of those visor wearing good european boys.

Craig71 is online now  
Old
11-22-2012, 03:28 PM
  #960
lamp9post
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,010
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Amen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whereabouts Unknown View Post
Gene Principe ‏@GenePrincipe
"Iíve been in the league for 20 years, faced three lockouts.Only 14 guys have done that. Iíve earned right to say what I think."R.Hamrlik
Everyone has a right to express their opinion.

However, everyone else also has the right to respond to that opinion should it be expressed. Hamrlik should expect backlash from the rest of the union.

lamp9post is offline  
Old
11-22-2012, 03:39 PM
  #961
vokiel
#NoTradesWithEDM
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Montrťal
Country: Martinique
Posts: 6,557
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
Everyone has a right to express their opinion.

However, everyone else also has the right to respond to that opinion should it be expressed. Hamrlik should expect backlash from the rest of the union.
That's quite true, except voicing your opinion != threats. In a good relationship with a union also you don't expect a complete redneck backlash, unless you are indeed in a redneck union. Maybe decertification is what is needed

vokiel is offline  
Old
11-22-2012, 03:41 PM
  #962
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23,530
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
Everyone has a right to express their opinion.

However, everyone else also has the right to respond to that opinion should it be expressed. Hamrlik should expect backlash from the rest of the union.
Sure, but to get your integrity questioned is something else.

Kriss E is online now  
Old
11-22-2012, 03:45 PM
  #963
Myron Gaines*
Trop Giou
 
Myron Gaines*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,391
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Sure, but to get your integrity questioned is something else.
Which is something that often happens in this board.

Myron Gaines* is offline  
Old
11-22-2012, 03:46 PM
  #964
Protest the Hero
Registered User
 
Protest the Hero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,383
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
That's quite true, except voicing your opinion != threats. In a good relationship with a union also you don't expect a complete redneck backlash, unless you are indeed in a redneck union. Maybe decertification is what is needed
Hey with decertification Montreal could offer top dollar to all those great french players that are dying to come home.

Protest the Hero is offline  
Old
11-22-2012, 03:48 PM
  #965
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,511
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig71 View Post
Finally, somebody from the players actually makes an intelligent comment about the lockout. I would also love to hear from Don Cherry on the topic of Canadian Players going to Europe during the lockout and taking away the jobs of those visor wearing good european boys.
Nothing wrong with taking another job if you are locked out.

Some of you do not get the difference between a lockout,and a strike... Yet the same people call the players uneducated... LOL.

DAChampion is offline  
Old
11-22-2012, 03:51 PM
  #966
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,511
vCash: 500
Of Nilson came out and publicly undermined bettman he would receive vastly more reprimands than what happened to Hamrlik, and not one of you free speech trolls would be criticizing Bettman.

DAChampion is offline  
Old
11-22-2012, 03:58 PM
  #967
Et le But
Moderator
 
Et le But's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York
Country: Argentina
Posts: 17,650
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The same thing happened in Wisconsin when governor Walker attacked unions to give tax cuts to the Koch brothers.

Lots of people complained that teachers make $70000\year for an easy, fun job. Those same people did not have a problem with the wealth of those who would benefit from the cuts.
You can't seriously believe the NHLPA and sports unions represent the struggle other unions are facing right now. If anything the wages and quality of life of professional athletes is directly related to the labour-crushing, finance-centric policies of late capitalism that took off since the 80s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Some of you do not get the difference between a lockout,and a strike... Yet the same people call the players uneducated... LOL.
For an alleged expert at these things, Fehr should have known Bettman had no problem calling a lockout. If the players care about anyone else why did they wait so long to start negotiating?

Et le But is offline  
Old
11-22-2012, 04:19 PM
  #968
lamp9post
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,010
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
That's quite true, except voicing your opinion != threats. In a good relationship with a union also you don't expect a complete redneck backlash, unless you are indeed in a redneck union. Maybe decertification is what is needed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Sure, but to get your integrity questioned is something else.
I don't condone threats and sure, maybe having his integrity questioned is over the top. However, what Hamrlik said was very serious. All the union has is solidarity and Hamrlik undermined that. He hurt every other player in the union with his comments and I'm sure many in the union took personal offense to those comments.

It is like a political party member voting against the party. Whatever his personal intentions, he's going to draw the ire of the rest of the party and likely find himself out of that party before long.

lamp9post is offline  
Old
11-22-2012, 04:25 PM
  #969
68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mount Olympus
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,628
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whereabouts Unknown View Post
Gene Principe ‏@GenePrincipe
"Iíve been in the league for 20 years, faced three lockouts.Only 14 guys have done that. Iíve earned right to say what I think."R.Hamrlik

<3 The Hammer. Class. Thank you for being our best defenceman in a long time.

68 is offline  
Old
11-22-2012, 04:26 PM
  #970
Protest the Hero
Registered User
 
Protest the Hero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,383
vCash: 500
According to some, the NHLPA holds the future of all middle class America in their hands. If they don't "win" these negotiations, USA will be thrown back to the 1950's and NHL players will only earn $10,000 per year.

Done with these "discussions". Hopefully we can get a season, but my care level is at an all time low right now, I just wish TSN/CBC could pick up more AHL or junior games in the meantime.

Protest the Hero is offline  
Old
11-22-2012, 04:43 PM
  #971
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,247
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
The other difference is unlike most unions (there are other exceptions), sports unions are supposed to be representing people with radically different interests. Sidney Crosby, Brandon Prust and Petteri Nokelainen might both play the form of worker, in that they own only their own labour and not the means of production (if you can consider playing hockey a form of production), but their interests are often at odds.

While the owners might not deserve to be bailed out from overspending in principle, overpaying players becomes the only way to attract impact players. And these overpaid players are the guys who stand to lose the most from rollbacks, since they are the ones with long term contracts.

On the other hand, if the status quo remains the same, the type of guys who aren't going to retire with 10s of millions in the banks, the role players, are going to end up making less to compensate for paying the star players whatever the max is. The fringe players who live on short term contracts aren't going to win here.

So when Cole and Gorges pretend to care about the future, keep in mind that both are under contract for the rest of their productive careers, in both cases probably a year over their value. Not saying they didn't earn it, considering both are sacrificing their bodies considering their play styles, but both have contracts that were only possible under the current CBA and are closer to the upper class of NHL players than they pretend.



Why does there have to be one good side in this? Both sides are greedy, this is about two things - money and ego. But like it or not, the way the league is constructed, it's the owners who have the leverage here since they are the ones who invested to begin with.
if status quo remains, owners may get another "record" in revenues, who knows
They should "test" their leverage with replacement players

ECWHSWI is offline  
Old
11-22-2012, 04:48 PM
  #972
PunkinDrublic*
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sutton,Qc-Sudbury,On
Posts: 8,283
vCash: 500
To all those who are itching for more hockey, get out to your local arenas and support our youth in minor hockey !!! Please....

PunkinDrublic* is offline  
Old
11-22-2012, 04:55 PM
  #973
Blind Gardien
Global Moderator
nexus of the crisis
 
Blind Gardien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Four Winds Bar
Country: France
Posts: 19,561
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
I don't condone threats and sure, maybe having his integrity questioned is over the top. However, what Hamrlik said was very serious. All the union has is solidarity and Hamrlik undermined that. He hurt every other player in the union with his comments and I'm sure many in the union took personal offense to those comments.
Aside from judging his comments either way, I just wonder how many other players share his opinion (in some approximate degree, anyway). At some point, if a large enough group does, and if they feel like they aren't being heard by their union brethren, somebody is going to find a way to speak for them. Dunno if Hamrlik is the tip of the iceberg or a true rogue in that sense. But it would be an interesting new dynamic to the stalemate if some number of players shared his sentiments.

Blind Gardien is offline  
Old
11-22-2012, 05:05 PM
  #974
Roulin
Registered User
 
Roulin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Montreal
Posts: 4,242
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Aside from judging his comments either way, I just wonder how many other players share his opinion (in some approximate degree, anyway). At some point, if a large enough group does, and if they feel like they aren't being heard by their union brethren, somebody is going to find a way to speak for them. Dunno if Hamrlik is the tip of the iceberg or a true rogue in that sense. But it would be an interesting new dynamic to the stalemate if some number of players shared his sentiments.
Since the negotiations at this point appear to be about the "make whole" process, I wouldn't be surprised if players without contracts (Subban) or young players with 1 year contracts (Neuvirth, Desharnais, White) feel unrepresented. Their battle looks to be done. They are headed towards 50% of HRR by their primes, and another labor dispute in 6-7 years. The union has abandoned their fight, so their self interest might just be to play asap.

Roulin is offline  
Old
11-22-2012, 05:29 PM
  #975
thom
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,026
vCash: 500
Don Cherry has already talked about canadian players going to Europe and taking jobs from europeans.He and Lafleur called a disgrace it was big news in canada .

thom is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:29 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.