"Decently long time"... how long would you say it's been since Crosby ascended to Best Player status? 4-5 years now? Not Gretzky-esque, but how many players have been at the top of the hill for 4-5 years, injuries notwithstanding? Not a whole lot of them, and not Trottier.
You mean when not counting Ovechkin or Malkin? I mean... Crosby has never been a clear-cut best player in the league over any meaningful period. One of the best? Sure. Best overall during those 4-5 years? Most likely. Best player without any doubts over more than one season. Nope.
I don't know what the "consensus" is. However, I do find it hard to believe that a forward who hasn't won a Ross, Hart or Pearson since '07 should be the "consensus" best player since then. Especially since competition has won these awards since that season. It seems to be built mostly on perpetual expectations that he will separate himself from the pack. He missed over 1/3 of the '08 season... had a very good '09, but still finished behind Malkin & Ovechkin in points... improved his goal scoring to have an outstanding '10 season, but Ovechkin still tied him in points in fewer games... then he seemed to finally separate himself in the first half of '11, when Malkin was hurt and Ovechkin had declined, but then he got the concussion and hasn't been mostly MIA since. So the case for him being the best player, over the past several seasons, seems to mostly be based on 1-1.5 seasons in '10 & '11... but he hasn't even been clearly the most valuable player for an entire season during that stretch. I can't think of another example in recent decades of a player being credited as the "consensus" best forward for that long, when he was never the "consensus" best forward for even one season during that time.
My point with Sakic is that Crosby's numbers aren't much different than any other top scorer in the dead puck era. Certainly there's nothing there to anoint the man as a Hockey God. So were is it coming from? It's coming from the "wow" factor: His flashiness as a player. My point is that flashiness and "wow" factors aren't a part of evaluating how good a player is. You can be a great player without flashiness and "wow" factors.
You can go ahead believing that I am influenced by this "wow" factor that you speak of even if nothing I have said would indicate it is true. I also don't know where you see anyone here anointing him as a "Hockey God", unless you think that only a deity could be slightly better than Trottier. I am judging Crosby and Trottier based on what I have seen and comparison with their peers, not some criteria that exists in your head.
As far as Sakic, this post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey
During the post-lockout era (2006-12):
Crosby - 1.40 PPG
Malkin - 1.23
Ovechkin - 1.23
Thornton - 1.16
Spezza - 1.13
I don't know what the "consensus" is. However, I do find it hard to believe that a forward who hasn't won a Ross, Hart or Pearson since '07 should be the "consensus" best player since then. Especially since competition has won these awards since that season.
Winning awards =/= being the best player
The fact that Crosby has been injured a lot isn't news to anyone. That, however, doesn't really have any bearing on whether he is better than Player X or Y. Trophies are almost always based on complete or near-complete seasons, so they in turn don't have any bearing on who is the best player.
In other words, Jose Theodore wasn't the best hockey player in the world in 2002 no matter what the awards voting said.
Quote:
It seems to be built mostly on perpetual expectations that he will separate himself from the pack.
Look at his PPG instead of raw totals... he has pretty clearly separated from the pack for quite some time now.
Quote:
I can't think of another example in recent decades of a player being credited as the "consensus" best forward for that long, when he was never the "consensus" best forward for even one season during that time.
You don't have to go back very far to remember the period from 2000-2004 when Lemieux and Forsberg were clearly separated from the pack in talent but never had the "best season" due to injuries.
__________________
"Trust me I'm an expert, I watched 13 rangers games on NHL center Ice this year through streaming." -Starburst
"I don't even understand what the point of all this arguing is. Are you guys hoping that the other side is going to have an epiphany and go 'Oh, OH! You're right, we ARE going to lose this series!'" -Crease
I don't know what the "consensus" is. However, I do find it hard to believe that a forward who hasn't won a Ross, Hart or Pearson since '07 should be the "consensus" best player since then. Especially since competition has won these awards since that season. It seems to be built mostly on perpetual expectations that he will separate himself from the pack. He missed over 1/3 of the '08 season... had a very good '09, but still finished behind Malkin & Ovechkin in points... improved his goal scoring to have an outstanding '10 season, but Ovechkin still tied him in points in fewer games... then he seemed to finally separate himself in the first half of '11, when Malkin was hurt and Ovechkin had declined, but then he got the concussion and hasn't been mostly MIA since. So the case for him being the best player, over the past several seasons, seems to mostly be based on 1-1.5 seasons in '10 & '11... but he hasn't even been clearly the most valuable player for an entire season during that stretch. I can't think of another example in recent decades of a player being credited as the "consensus" best forward for that long, when he was never the "consensus" best forward for even one season during that time.
I understand your point here but we can say that Sid is the best player when healthy then for that stretch that tarheelhockey has pointed out.
Also Sid s start to the 11 season is the best 41 game stretch where we have seen any player dominate since two guys named Wayne and Mario were around.
Like I said before Trotts wins their 12st 7 years but it's really close and if Sid were healthy he would be ahead handily for those 7 years to compare.
As for the overall question Sid is the better player.
I understand your point here but we can say that Sid is the best player when healthy then for that stretch that tarheelhockey has pointed out.
Also Sid s start to the 11 season is the best 41 game stretch where we have seen any player dominate since two guys named Wayne and Mario were around.
Like I said before Trotts wins their 12st 7 years but it's really close and if Sid were healthy he would be ahead handily for those 7 years to compare.
As for the overall question Sid is the better player.
Didn't Ovechkin outpoint Crosby over the first 41 the year prior?
You mean when not counting Ovechkin or Malkin? I mean... Crosby has never been a clear-cut best player in the league over any meaningful period. One of the best? Sure. Best overall during those 4-5 years? Most likely. Best player without any doubts over more than one season. Nope.
Well he was in the mix for the Hart in 10, and would have been my choice and followed that with his blistering pace for the 1st 41 games in 11.
If there was any doubt on who the best player was over that stretch of 1 and 1/2 seasons it's beyond me.
Okay, career its Trottier hands down and until Crosby can play the game without being so accident prone or just play the game in general without shining Donald Fehr's shoes in the process I am afraid it will always be Trottier.
That being said at their best it is a good case. Let's not forget a Trottier in 1979 or 1980 either. It is arguable that he is the most important Islander on that dynasty. He was less flashy than people of his time and especially Crosby, but he also has that distinction of being named the most "complete player to ever play the game". I am sure people on HFboards have heard that expression directed at Trottier before. It isn't all that far off. Personally I give it to Gordie Howe, but Trottier could score, pass, play defense, hit like a ton of bricks, lead, win and score clutch goals. He didn't really have a weakness in his game. Crosby can get thrown off his game (2012 playoffs) but could Trottier? He was more composed.
I can say one thing, if you put a prime Trottier in the NHL right now there would be a ton of "Trottier vs. Crosby" threads and neither side would really be wrong.
Okay, career its Trottier hands down and until Crosby can play the game without being so accident prone or just play the game in general without shining Donald Fehr's shoes in the process I am afraid it will always be Trottier.
That being said at their best it is a good case. Let's not forget a Trottier in 1979 or 1980 either. It is arguable that he is the most important Islander on that dynasty. He was less flashy than people of his time and especially Crosby, but he also has that distinction of being named the most "complete player to ever play the game". I am sure people on HFboards have heard that expression directed at Trottier before. It isn't all that far off. Personally I give it to Gordie Howe, but Trottier could score, pass, play defense, hit like a ton of bricks, lead, win and score clutch goals. He didn't really have a weakness in his game. Crosby can get thrown off his game (2012 playoffs) but could Trottier? He was more composed.
I can say one thing, if you put a prime Trottier in the NHL right now there would be a ton of "Trottier vs. Crosby" threads and neither side would really be wrong.
Okay, career its Trottier hands down and until Crosby can play the game without being so accident prone or just play the game in general without shining Donald Fehr's shoes in the process I am afraid it will always be Trottier.
That being said at their best it is a good case. Let's not forget a Trottier in 1979 or 1980 either. It is arguable that he is the most important Islander on that dynasty. He was less flashy than people of his time and especially Crosby, but he also has that distinction of being named the most "complete player to ever play the game". I am sure people on HFboards have heard that expression directed at Trottier before. It isn't all that far off. Personally I give it to Gordie Howe, but Trottier could score, pass, play defense, hit like a ton of bricks, lead, win and score clutch goals. He didn't really have a weakness in his game. Crosby can get thrown off his game (2012 playoffs) but could Trottier? He was more composed.
I can say one thing, if you put a prime Trottier in the NHL right now there would be a ton of "Trottier vs. Crosby" threads and neither side would really be wrong.
Once again "old-time" fans look at the past with rose-coloured glasses.
How many points do you think Crosby would be scoring with Mike Bossy and Clark Gillies in their prime as regular linemates, instead of journeymen like Armstrong, Malone, Kennedy and (old) Recchi. Who would the equivalent of Bossy and Gillies be today?
In his best full seasons he brings almost as much offense as Crosby in his best full seasons while at the same time providing bone crushing physicality and much better defense (although Crosby is pretty good).
In brief spurts a case could certainly be made that Crosby surpassed Trottier as an overall player but Crosby still has to prove it to me.
Right now those 20-40 game stretches of extremely good play are hopelessly overhyped.
Once again "old-time" fans look at the past with rose-coloured glasses.
How many points do you think Crosby would be scoring with Mike Bossy and Clark Gillies in their prime as regular linemates, instead of journeymen like Armstrong, Malone, Kennedy and (old) Recchi. Who would the equivalent of Bossy and Gillies be today?
Or, to reverse the era comparison, how many games do you think Trottier (or extend this thought to virtually any physical player from any era) would miss with concussions if he played today?
Or, to reverse the era comparison, how many games do you think Trottier (or extend this thought to virtually any physical player from any era) would miss with concussions if he played today?
I think Crosby at the top of his game has reached Trottier heights, but Trottier played far more games at that height... Thus far.
Playoff points per game 2006 - 2010 (min 20 games)
Ovechkin 1.43
Crosby 1.32
Malkin 1.18
Jagr 1.17
Kane 1.11
From 2005-06 to 2009-10, Crosby AND Ovechkin separated themselves
In the last 2 seasons, Crosby has separated himself from Ovechkin when healthy, but he's only played 63 games total between the two seasons (scoring 103 points in those 63 games). Ovechkin has played 157 games over the last 2 seasons, scoring 150 points. Malkin has played 118 games over the last 2 seasons, scoring 146 points.
Playoff points per game 2006 - 2010 (min 20 games)
Ovechkin 1.43
Crosby 1.32
Malkin 1.18
Jagr 1.17
Kane 1.11
From 2005-06 to 2009-10, Crosby AND Ovechkin separated themselves
In the last 2 seasons, Crosby has separated himself from Ovechkin when healthy, but he's only played 63 games total between the two seasons (scoring 103 points in those 63 games). Ovechkin has played 157 games over the last 2 seasons, scoring 150 points. Malkin has played 118 games over the last 2 seasons, scoring 146 points.
You forgot to convert it all to Adjusted Stats first
I don't know what the "consensus" is. However, I do find it hard to believe that a forward who hasn't won a Ross, Hart or Pearson since '07 should be the "consensus" best player since then. Especially since competition has won these awards since that season. It seems to be built mostly on perpetual expectations that he will separate himself from the pack. He missed over 1/3 of the '08 season... had a very good '09, but still finished behind Malkin & Ovechkin in points... improved his goal scoring to have an outstanding '10 season, but Ovechkin still tied him in points in fewer games... then he seemed to finally separate himself in the first half of '11, when Malkin was hurt and Ovechkin had declined, but then he got the concussion and hasn't been mostly MIA since. So the case for him being the best player, over the past several seasons, seems to mostly be based on 1-1.5 seasons in '10 & '11... but he hasn't even been clearly the most valuable player for an entire season during that stretch. I can't think of another example in recent decades of a player being credited as the "consensus" best forward for that long, when he was never the "consensus" best forward for even one season during that time.
I agree with this post.
Crosby has been "right up there!" at the top spot with Malkin/Ovechkin for the past years. He has showed flashes of brilliance and is obviously able to put up tremendous points. Not just sure how good that will work season in season out kind of situation. Crosby gets too much reckoning as a best player without even playing. (I just wait till someone comes and shows me Crosbys last 82 games points.)
I view "best player" status to be a sort of interim title at the moment. Crosby doesn't have it right this second, but he's the last guy to have it, and if he comes back to form in the next season, he's going to keep it.
Also, on the subject of getting Sid off his game, the Habs did just as good if not a better job of it in 2010 than Giroux and co did last season. At least he was still scoring a bunch against Philly (even though that series was some of the most one-dimensional hockey I've seen the guy play in years), the Canadiens kept him off the scoresheet while getting in his head. The boarding penalty in the opening seconds of the last game at the Igloo sums up that series perfectly.
Well he was in the mix for the Hart in 10, and would have been my choice and followed that with his blistering pace for the 1st 41 games in 11.
If there was any doubt on who the best player was over that stretch of 1 and 1/2 seasons it's beyond me.
He didn't separate himself from the pack. He was outscored by Henrik Sedin. Ovechkin had one less goal and same amount of points in 9 less games played.
He didn't separate himself from the pack. He was outscored by Henrik Sedin. Ovechkin had one less goal and same amount of points in 9 less games played.
I view "best player" status to be a sort of interim title at the moment. Crosby doesn't have it right this second, but he's the last guy to have it, and if he comes back to form in the next season, he's going to keep it.
I haven't really followed boxing for many, many years, but this sort of reminds me of decades ago... when there were 2 or 3 "titles" for each class (not sure if more or less today), given by various organizing bodies of dubious distinction. Then some guy wouldn't defend his title and it would be vacated, so they would have to figure out some system to reinstate the title. That's basically how I see Crosby's situation: he was in the mix, but the top contenders traded blows and beat each other up... then he was awarded the title of "best player" by at least one faction, based mostly on his 2010 (last 1/2-2/3 of '10 and first half of '11)... then he couldn't stay healthy the rest of '11 and most of '12, so basically vacated the title... and now there's not even any matches, but there's supposedly this "consensus" that he's been the best player in hockey for 6, going on 7 years... and that seems like quite a revisionist history from my perspective. I might agree with "as good as anyone when healthy" for the past 2-3 seasons, but that's about the max.
Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar
Also, on the subject of getting Sid off his game, the Habs did just as good if not a better job of it in 2010 than Giroux and co did last season. At least he was still scoring a bunch against Philly (even though that series was some of the most one-dimensional hockey I've seen the guy play in years)
He had pretty goals right off the bat in a couple games... then he basically seemed to disappear, except for a nice deflection for a goal. Other than that, the only time I noticed him was when he was acting like a complete d-bag... talking sorta tough, but not walking the walk. Is slashing the opponents wrists in the face-off circle and knocking away someone's gloves the best he can do? Is that really the best move for a guy who's a concussion away from possibly ending his career?
Last edited by Fugu: 11-23-2012 at 12:46 PM.
Reason: ...
First it was "Crosby or Ovechkin or Malkin", then Malkin started to decline, then Ovechkin and the answer seemed to become "Crosby", but it soon turned into "Crosby when he is actually playing."
MOD
Last edited by Fugu: 11-23-2012 at 12:45 PM.
Reason: ...\
