HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Pittsburgh Penguins
Notices

Derrick Pouliot | Defenseman | Portland (WHL) | 1st Round, 8th overall

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-22-2012, 11:50 AM
  #576
JTG
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: Sierra Leone
Posts: 38,232
vCash: 500
I'm glad Ryan Murphy wasn't involved in the deal. Faulk is the guy I wanted, but that's a lot to ask for.

JTG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 12:04 PM
  #577
SprootsMasterFlex
Snooki for President
 
SprootsMasterFlex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,186
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
The lynch pin of this deal for a long time was the inclusion of Ryan Murphy. Once it was decided by Carolina brass that Brandon Sutter could move in a deal for Staal, it became a matter of negotiating the rest of the pieces obviously. Carolina is astronomical high on Murphy, for right or wrong it remains to be seen, and were not all that keen on including him. Carolina had not identified a target at 8th overall that would compel them to keep the pick, other than those that presumably went 1-7th, and likely didn't pull the trigger on the deal until all their own targets were taken and Pittsburgh's target was still available. If something inexplicable happened and Yakupov slipped, they'd want to be there to capitalize.

The thing about Murphy is that, as you said, the risk is incredibly obvious. His deficiencies have never been hidden. Since Don Cherry put him on notice at 16 years old and told his viewership that he was going to be the 1st overall pick in his draft class, the eyes of scouts have never been far away from him. What he does possess is that intangible offensive talent and next level skating that draws comparisons to some of the greats. He'll never be a total shut down defender in the NHL, but some have said that a Paul Coffey type career wouldn't be out of the question.

Pouliot is a great pick, but Carolina was calculated in their risk to not trade Murphy.
Thank you for your insight. Greatly appreciated Vagrant.

SprootsMasterFlex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 12:10 PM
  #578
JTG
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: Sierra Leone
Posts: 38,232
vCash: 500
fI have always personally viewed Murphy as a Mike Green. Serviceable defensively, but dynamic offensively. One can question the type of impact he could have with a team, as if he develops, his skillset will pay him a huge sum of money. You then have to question his real value as he can probably never score enough goals to offset the goals he let's up while he's on the ice.

Those guys can be quite valuable if used properly, but they rarely are. His value will come by making a powerplay lethal, but he will have to be paired with a top notch defensive stalwart to clean up his gaffes. The funny part of the whole thing is, Dumoulin is probably a guy, from what I've seen that would be an ideal partner for Murphy. Steady, stay at home, but can also contribute to the attack from the back end.

The more I see Dumoulin, the more I believe he will be a 2-3 defenseman. I love his hockey IQ, and his skillset.

JTG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 12:40 PM
  #579
Hottubber
Registered User
 
Hottubber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,626
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG View Post
fI have always personally viewed Murphy as a Mike Green. Serviceable defensively, but dynamic offensively. One can question the type of impact he could have with a team, as if he develops, his skillset will pay him a huge sum of money. You then have to question his real value as he can probably never score enough goals to offset the goals he let's up while he's on the ice.

Those guys can be quite valuable if used properly, but they rarely are. His value will come by making a powerplay lethal, but he will have to be paired with a top notch defensive stalwart to clean up his gaffes. The funny part of the whole thing is, Dumoulin is probably a guy, from what I've seen that would be an ideal partner for Murphy. Steady, stay at home, but can also contribute to the attack from the back end.

The more I see Dumoulin, the more I believe he will be a 2-3 defenseman. I love his hockey IQ, and his skillset.
The way Pierre McGuire was talking him up after the trade, he pretty much said he was an NHL ready d-man. I would think 1 year with Wilkes-Barre and he should be ready for NHL full-time action next season

Hottubber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 12:42 PM
  #580
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
3, 2, 1...Blast Off!
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 40,240
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
The lynch pin of this deal for a long time was the inclusion of Ryan Murphy. Once it was decided by Carolina brass that Brandon Sutter could move in a deal for Staal, it became a matter of negotiating the rest of the pieces obviously. Carolina is astronomical high on Murphy, for right or wrong it remains to be seen, and were not all that keen on including him. Carolina had not identified a target at 8th overall that would compel them to keep the pick, other than those that presumably went 1-7th, and likely didn't pull the trigger on the deal until all their own targets were taken and Pittsburgh's target was still available. If something inexplicable happened and Yakupov slipped, they'd want to be there to capitalize.

The thing about Murphy is that, as you said, the risk is incredibly obvious. His deficiencies have never been hidden. Since Don Cherry put him on notice at 16 years old and told his viewership that he was going to be the 1st overall pick in his draft class, the eyes of scouts have never been far away from him. What he does possess is that intangible offensive talent and next level skating that draws comparisons to some of the greats. He'll never be a total shut down defender in the NHL, but some have said that a Paul Coffey type career wouldn't be out of the question.

Pouliot is a great pick, but Carolina was calculated in their risk to not trade Murphy.
Appreciate the different perspective, but is there anything other than idle speculation to support this?

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 01:33 PM
  #581
Darth Vitale
Moderator
Dark Mod Powers
 
Darth Vitale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Fangorn
Country: United States
Posts: 24,579
vCash: 500
Don't get too emotionally involved in his selection or lack thereof. It's a junior hockey tournament. In the grand scheme even of one man's career, it means almost nothing.

Darth Vitale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 02:18 PM
  #582
JTG
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: Sierra Leone
Posts: 38,232
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hottubber View Post
The way Pierre McGuire was talking him up after the trade, he pretty much said he was an NHL ready d-man. I would think 1 year with Wilkes-Barre and he should be ready for NHL full-time action next season
Well, I have never really heard a lot about Dumoulin. I don't follow college hockey as closely as I used to, and I only really heard of him on the occasion I talked to my friend who is a huge college hockey fan. When we traded for him, the text I got from my friend simply said, "Stud."

The guy operates with some great poise. Couple that poise with a high hockey IQ, and a pretty well rounded skillset, and you have the makings of a seriously good defenseman. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him develop into the best defenseman that we currently have.

JTG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 06:04 PM
  #583
Vagrant
The Czech Condor
 
Vagrant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 19,648
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Vagrant
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Appreciate the different perspective, but is there anything other than idle speculation to support this?
I can't really offer much, as it would take quite a bit of time to go back on twitter to find documentation to support those kind of statements. I don't honestly feel that Faulk was ever in the discussion and if Pittsburgh wanted a prospect at that position, which they obviously did, they would probably go after Murphy from Carolina. At least have the discussion. As I mentioned, Carolina has two prospects on defense that they are almost irrationally high on in Faulk and Murphy. Brian Dumoulin was right there on the cusp of being another one. Don't get me wrong, I don't intend to say that Carolina was giving nothing of value, hated everybody in the draft, and totally got the better end of the deal. The price was, and remains, QUITE steep. Brian Dumoulin plays a style that should be familiar as I have watched him a lot since he was drafted and the stylistic game he plays is a lot like Ryan Whitney. I feel like he's a tougher version of Whitney and not quite on the tier offensively, but they both seem to approach the game the same way. He WILL be a Top 4 defender. I am certain of that much. Incredible mind for the game.

Vagrant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 06:12 PM
  #584
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
3, 2, 1...Blast Off!
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 40,240
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
I can't really offer much, as it would take quite a bit of time to go back on twitter to find documentation to support those kind of statements. I don't honestly feel that Faulk was ever in the discussion and if Pittsburgh wanted a prospect at that position, which they obviously did, they would probably go after Murphy from Carolina. At least have the discussion. As I mentioned, Carolina has two prospects on defense that they are almost irrationally high on in Faulk and Murphy. Brian Dumoulin was right there on the cusp of being another one. Don't get me wrong, I don't intend to say that Carolina was giving nothing of value, hated everybody in the draft, and totally got the better end of the deal. The price was, and remains, QUITE steep. Brian Dumoulin plays a style that should be familiar as I have watched him a lot since he was drafted and the stylistic game he plays is a lot like Ryan Whitney. I feel like he's a tougher version of Whitney and not quite on the tier offensively, but they both seem to approach the game the same way. He WILL be a Top 4 defender. I am certain of that much. Incredible mind for the game.
Educated guess, gotcha.

For the record, the Pens are almost irrationally high on defensive prospects who they've seen a lot of as a result of watching their other prospects on the team, so when they had the opportunity to get Dumoulin AND Pouliot, I'm sure Shero's scouting staff collectively JIMPed, haha.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 07:17 PM
  #585
jmelm
HFBoards Sponsor
 
jmelm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,357
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG View Post
fI have always personally viewed Murphy as a Mike Green. Serviceable defensively, but dynamic offensively. One can question the type of impact he could have with a team, as if he develops, his skillset will pay him a huge sum of money. You then have to question his real value as he can probably never score enough goals to offset the goals he let's up while he's on the ice.

That's the thing: if Murphy could be even "servicable" defensively, I would think he is a top prospect. But I'm not sure that he can even be servicable defensively. He is downright weak & terrible at times. There's no doubting his offensive ability, but he may never be more than an elite PP guy who has to see very little ice-time 5-on-5, and never on the PK. That's why I say he may just become a M.A. Bergeron type player.

I do agree on Dumoulin, however. I think he can be a first or 2nd pairing Dman who can play in all situations and provide a lot of size on the back end. I'm more excited about him than Despres for sure.

jmelm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 07:28 PM
  #586
jmelm
HFBoards Sponsor
 
jmelm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,357
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SprootsMasterFlex View Post
Good point. I guess only time will tell but if ask some people on the prospects board, their opinion may differ. Not implying that you are but I would assume that some of us on the Pens Board may subconsciously be biased with our prospects. I tend to do that sometimes (once again, not saying that you are, just generalizing).

I absolutely think that a lot of Pens fans (including those on this board) have a major bias towards some of our prospects. In particular, I think Despres and Morrow have both been overrated considerably.


A lot of people complain that we draft so many Dmen, at the expense of forwards or, IMO, goalies (would have loved to see them draft Subban with their 2nd pick). That said, I truly believe that part of the reason we have drafted and traded for (Dumoulin, Ruopp) so many Dmen is because, while we have a large quantity of them, many of them are not "sure things", and it seems to a degree like the Pens are just playing a numbers game -- drafting a lot of Dmen with the mindset that if they draft enough Dmen, then at least some of them will turn into really good NHLers.


I think if the Pens really had an elite blue-chip Dman or two in the system, they may feel confident enough that they have that position covered, and then concentrate their draft efforts more on forwards. As much as I like the group of Dmen that includes Despres, Morrow, Strait, Bortuzzo, Harrington, Poulot, Maatta and others, I do not see any legitimate #1 Dman in this entire organization outside of Letang. I sincerely hope that one or two of these guys can develop into that, but at this point, none of those guys are in that category -- and I would desperately like to see one in our organization, which is why I won't care if we take another Dman in the first round next year, if he has that type of upside potential.

jmelm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 07:48 PM
  #587
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
3, 2, 1...Blast Off!
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 40,240
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
I absolutely think that a lot of Pens fans (including those on this board) have a major bias towards some of our prospects. In particular, I think Despres and Morrow have both been overrated considerably.


A lot of people complain that we draft so many Dmen, at the expense of forwards or, IMO, goalies (would have loved to see them draft Subban with their 2nd pick). That said, I truly believe that part of the reason we have drafted and traded for (Dumoulin, Ruopp) so many Dmen is because, while we have a large quantity of them, many of them are not "sure things", and it seems to a degree like the Pens are just playing a numbers game -- drafting a lot of Dmen with the mindset that if they draft enough Dmen, then at least some of them will turn into really good NHLers.


I think if the Pens really had an elite blue-chip Dman or two in the system, they may feel confident enough that they have that position covered, and then concentrate their draft efforts more on forwards. As much as I like the group of Dmen that includes Despres, Morrow, Strait, Bortuzzo, Harrington, Poulot, Maatta and others, I do not see any legitimate #1 Dman in this entire organization outside of Letang. I sincerely hope that one or two of these guys can develop into that, but at this point, none of those guys are in that category -- and I would desperately like to see one in our organization, which is why I won't care if we take another Dman in the first round next year, if he has that type of upside potential.
So which prospects do project as future "legitimate #1 dmen" in your opinion?

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 08:08 PM
  #588
JTG
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: Sierra Leone
Posts: 38,232
vCash: 500
I still think Morrow has #1 potential. I have faith that he will work his defensive game out with more experience.

JTG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 08:52 PM
  #589
Ziggyjoe21
Registered User
 
Ziggyjoe21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Pitt
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 7,214
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Ziggyjoe21
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
I absolutely think that a lot of Pens fans (including those on this board) have a major bias towards some of our prospects. In particular, I think Despres and Morrow have both been overrated considerably.


A lot of people complain that we draft so many Dmen, at the expense of forwards or, IMO, goalies (would have loved to see them draft Subban with their 2nd pick). That said, I truly believe that part of the reason we have drafted and traded for (Dumoulin, Ruopp) so many Dmen is because, while we have a large quantity of them, many of them are not "sure things", and it seems to a degree like the Pens are just playing a numbers game -- drafting a lot of Dmen with the mindset that if they draft enough Dmen, then at least some of them will turn into really good NHLers.


I think if the Pens really had an elite blue-chip Dman or two in the system, they may feel confident enough that they have that position covered, and then concentrate their draft efforts more on forwards. As much as I like the group of Dmen that includes Despres, Morrow, Strait, Bortuzzo, Harrington, Poulot, Maatta and others, I do not see any legitimate #1 Dman in this entire organization outside of Letang. I sincerely hope that one or two of these guys can develop into that, but at this point, none of those guys are in that category -- and I would desperately like to see one in our organization, which is why I won't care if we take another Dman in the first round next year, if he has that type of upside potential.
We already have a #1 in Letang, how many more do you need? Not every team has a number 1 Dman, and there certainly aren't 30 #1 caliber Dmen in the league.

Ziggyjoe21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 09:02 PM
  #590
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
3, 2, 1...Blast Off!
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 40,240
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggyjoe21 View Post
We already have a #1 in Letang, how many more do you need? Not every team has a number 1 Dman, and there certainly aren't 30 #1 caliber Dmen in the league.
That's what I was building toward.

We don't just have a #1 dman, we have a 25 year old #1 dman. I'd wager that the number of teams that have both a current #1 defenseman AND a defense prospect better than Morrow is pretty low, never mind a current #1 defenseman who's young enough to perform in that capacity for another decade.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2012, 09:47 PM
  #591
Jacob
Registered User
 
Jacob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 25,056
vCash: 500
I don't see any future #1 d-men in the system. But I'm of the opinion that there are only like 10 true #1s in the league anyway.

For that reason I hope Letang can stay healthy and we can also sign him long term. Guys like him are hard to come by.

Jacob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2012, 12:28 AM
  #592
#66
Registered User
 
#66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 10,168
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
I don't see any future #1 d-men in the system. But I'm of the opinion that there are only like 10 true #1s in the league anyway.

For that reason I hope Letang can stay healthy and we can also sign him long term. Guys like him are hard to come by.
Fully agree and I think numbering defensemen like that is a thing of the past. Its more about 1st unit, 2nd unit and 3rd unit now.

It will be interesting to watch Letang over the next few years. He always gives 120% and I love that about his game but he takes some brutal hits.

#66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2012, 10:04 AM
  #593
UnrealMachine
Registered User
 
UnrealMachine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Pittsburgh, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,078
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
I don't see any future #1 d-men in the system. But I'm of the opinion that there are only like 10 true #1s in the league anyway.

For that reason I hope Letang can stay healthy and we can also sign him long term. Guys like him are hard to come by.
Not that I necessarily agree with the move, but the way the Pens have drafted over the last 3 years, if I had to guess I would think Letang is the one who will be flipped for a forward before his contract ends. Domoulin, Despres & Morrow (hopefully) will be ready for full-time NHL by 12/13. Harrington & Matta the following season. Then Pouliot (not to mention a number of other quality D-men who are certainly worthy of NHL consideration). Current defensemen are going to have to be moved sooner than later. Otherwise, I see no short/long-term strategy to this drafting philosophy.

UnrealMachine is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2012, 10:24 AM
  #594
Milliardo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Zürich
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 1,596
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
Not that I necessarily agree with the move, but the way the Pens have drafted over the last 3 years, if I had to guess I would think Letang is the one who will be flipped for a forward before his contract ends. Domoulin, Despres & Morrow (hopefully) will be ready for full-time NHL by 12/13. Harrington & Matta the following season. Then Pouliot (not to mention a number of other quality D-men who are certainly worthy of NHL consideration). Current defensemen are going to have to be moved sooner than later. Otherwise, I see no short/long-term strategy to this drafting philosophy.
Yeah but Letang is probably the last one being moved. Why would we move our Nr. 1 dman?

Milliardo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2012, 10:34 AM
  #595
UnrealMachine
Registered User
 
UnrealMachine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Pittsburgh, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,078
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milliardo View Post
Yeah but Letang is probably the last one being moved. Why would we move our Nr. 1 dman?
1. His cap hit will nearly double on his next contract;
2. We are loaded with defensive prospects. Some have similar skill-sets;
3. We have very few potential top-6 forward prospects;
4. Our bottom-6 prospects are actually better than our top-6;
5. He'll represents the highest value that we have to bargain with outside of Crosby/Malkin;
6. He might be the only defensive player who has significant trade value over the next 2 years.

UnrealMachine is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2012, 10:54 AM
  #596
Ugene Malkin
****!
 
Ugene Malkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: pittsburgh
Country: United States
Posts: 20,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
1. His cap hit will nearly double on his next contract;
2. We are loaded with defensive prospects. Some have similar skill-sets;
3. We have very few potential top-6 forward prospects;
4. Our bottom-6 prospects are actually better than our top-6;
5. He'll represents the highest value that we have to bargain with outside of Crosby/Malkin;
6. He might be the only defensive player who has significant trade value over the next 2 years.
No, no,no. Martin will be the casualty of this, same as, Orpik, even though I hope not.

Letang will get his money here, and the fact there are so many prospects on defense with really good prospects of being regulars helps keep that cap number down, keeping Letang here for at least another contract.

Ugene Malkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2012, 12:43 PM
  #597
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
3, 2, 1...Blast Off!
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 40,240
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
1. His cap hit will nearly double on his next contract;
2. We are loaded with defensive prospects. Some have similar skill-sets;
3. We have very few potential top-6 forward prospects;
4. Our bottom-6 prospects are actually better than our top-6;
5. He'll represents the highest value that we have to bargain with outside of Crosby/Malkin;
6. He might be the only defensive player who has significant trade value over the next 2 years.
1. His contract should nearly double. He's a 25 year old #1 defenseman who's been in the top 10 in Norris voting the past two years. Why would we balk at paying a great young player what he's worth?

2. None of these prospects would be remotely ready - in any reasonable scenario - to take over for Letang as a #1 defenseman in the next two years. If ever.

The rest doesn't matter.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2012, 12:48 PM
  #598
IHWR
The Chiropractor
 
IHWR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ottawa, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,315
vCash: 500
Some of you guys are real cards.

IHWR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2012, 03:12 PM
  #599
Ziggyjoe21
Registered User
 
Ziggyjoe21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Pitt
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 7,214
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Ziggyjoe21
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
1. His cap hit will nearly double on his next contract;
2. We are loaded with defensive prospects. Some have similar skill-sets;
3. We have very few potential top-6 forward prospects;
4. Our bottom-6 prospects are actually better than our top-6;
5. He'll represents the highest value that we have to bargain with outside of Crosby/Malkin;
6. He might be the only defensive player who has significant trade value over the next 2 years.
Considering Pens will more than likely be in contention throughout Letang's career, it's highly unlikely Letang is traded, period. Either he re-signs here or he walks as UFA. You don't trade Dmen of his caliber unless outside factors force you to.

Also, and this is pure speculation, but the new CBA may decrease the crazy UFA salaries again, so Letang's next contract may not be THAT huge. Regardless, he should be kept at all costs.

Ziggyjoe21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2012, 03:14 PM
  #600
Ziggyjoe21
Registered User
 
Ziggyjoe21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Pitt
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 7,214
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Ziggyjoe21
Also, why do people think that as soon as a player has high trade value he NEEDS to get traded? Teams like the Pens are successful because they keep their good players, not trade them away.

You trade an unproven prospect or young player with potential, not a young superstar in his prime. Money and cap space is NOT an issue for the Pens.

Ziggyjoe21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:17 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.