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11-22-2012, 07:32 PM
  #626
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Can someone explain this decertification to me?
Might seem like a stupid question but I hear so many people mention it and I'm not sure what they're talking about

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11-22-2012, 07:35 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by 402 View Post
Can someone explain this decertification to me?
Might seem like a stupid question but I hear so many people mention it and I'm not sure what they're talking about
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l..._gary_bettman/

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11-22-2012, 07:38 PM
  #628
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Paul Bissonnette... once again displaying his arrogance and overall stupidity.

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Paul BissonnetteVerified ‏@BizNasty2point0
I bet @walsha could explain it to you @DarrenDreger.
- in response to Dreger's tweet about having to educate himself on what decertification might mean for the NHL.

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11-22-2012, 07:50 PM
  #629
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Quote:
Andi Petrillo ‏@andipHNIC
Just spoke to a locked player who is leaning towards decertification. Said "we can't play under league's proposal, so why not blow it up?"
So reckless, so needless... so absurd.

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11-22-2012, 08:04 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
Hmm, well now i'm scared maybe i should have stuck to not knowing
In all seriousness though one thing that stuck out to me was that it would take a majority vote by players to do this, right? Well i'm not so sure the majority of players would agree to it, it could be a close vote but i don't think most players want to go ahead with this, my other problem with it apart from not watching any hockey for a long long time is the thing about contracts potentially being no longer valid because that's something that might make me stop watching for a couple more years after hockey is back on, if all players become free agents and the league essentially gets reshuffled, well that might just be to much nonsense for me.
Based on what i just read i don't think were on the verge of decertification

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11-22-2012, 08:07 PM
  #631
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Apparently, the players held a tentative vote on decertification yesterday and it passed. That's why the idea is gaining steam.

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11-22-2012, 08:14 PM
  #632
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I've said it before, but I'm not kidding, can we have Replacement Players NOW. **** these putzes

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11-22-2012, 08:19 PM
  #633
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I've said it before, but I'm not kidding, can we have Replacement Players NOW. **** these putzes
Hamrlik is nearing retirement but he can stay.

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11-22-2012, 08:21 PM
  #634
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I hate to be that guy, but decertification, if plausible, would be the worst and most ironic note for a team that just spend years sucking in order to accrue a collection of number one drafts.

We're all thinking it, but I'm stating it, I'm bad like that, I have to cough up the huge hairballs.

I'll run away now.

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11-22-2012, 08:23 PM
  #635
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
I hate to be that guy, but decertification, if plausible, would be the worst and most ironic note for a team that just spend years sucking in order to accrue a collection of number one drafts.

We're all thinking it, but I'm stating it, I'm bad like that, I have to cough up the huge hairballs.

I'll run away now.
There's nothing wrong with stating it. It has to be said... and it makes me physically ill.

This might spell the end for me as an NHL fan.

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11-22-2012, 08:27 PM
  #636
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So both the nba and nfl players choose this route in their last lockouts and both were resolved fairly quickly way is decertification the end of the world for the nhl

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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
I hate to be that guy, but decertification, if plausible, would be the worst and most ironic note for a team that just spend years sucking in order to accrue a collection of number one drafts.

We're all thinking it, but I'm stating it, I'm bad like that, I have to cough up the huge hairballs.

I'll run away now.
My point exactly we just spent so many years buliding our current time but then again nba and nfl contracts remained intact, so same question why would nhl teams lose all their players ?

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11-22-2012, 08:32 PM
  #637
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So both the nba and nfl players choose this route in their last lockouts and both were resolved fairly quickly way is decertification the end of the world for the nhl
The NHL and NHLPA are a different breed. Neither side is reasonable and both are prone to fits of arrogance and ego.

Quote:
My point exactly we just spent so many years buliding our current time but then again nba and nfl contracts remained intact, so same question why would nhl teams lose all their players ?
Because when the NBA and NFL player associations voted to decertify it immediately led to their respective leagues caving and deals being reached. Obviously, that's what the NHLPA is hoping for here... but we all know that Bettman and Daly aren't going to give in. If the players go the decertification route then it will go through.

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11-22-2012, 08:40 PM
  #638
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Originally Posted by 402 View Post
So both the nba and nfl players choose this route in their last lockouts and both were resolved fairly quickly way is decertification the end of the world for the nhl

I thought the biggest difference in those cases was the suits brought to keep the league from collecting large amounts of TV money, the NHL doesn't exactly have that same problem.

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11-22-2012, 08:41 PM
  #639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
Hamrlik is nearing retirement but he can stay.
Agreed, lol, I wouldn't fault anyone who crossed (unless it was some ridiculous case of being a hypocrite)

They PA seems like the need a dose of perspective and Replacement players would do that in spades.

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11-22-2012, 09:05 PM
  #640
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I was just discussing the lockout with my 8 year old nephew and he made one comment that really stuck with me. With regards to the NHL and the PA taking the fans commitment for granted he said that the one sport(I use the term INCREDIBLY loosely) that truly does value its fans is the WWE.

This terrifies me.

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11-22-2012, 09:21 PM
  #641
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Informal vote for decertification huh? Does the "informal" mean - "all the players with big front loaded contracts in Fehr's inner circle who don't care if they screw over the majority of their union members? The same ones that have been dictating the focus of the NHLPA's bargaining efforts from the start?

There would be massive repercussions to players in this scenario - ie. the removal of close 300+ jobs avaliable to players within a few years as teams begin to fold due to the inability to compete or make money, and that would probably only be the start. NHL players have an exceptionally good thing going for a niche sport with limited appeal in the major markets of the US, they would essentially be willing to kill the league to ensure they get paid over the next 2 years.

It's ridiculious.

Maybe i'm too pessemistic about the end result if this were to happen though, especially for the Oilers who i don't think would come out of that kind of mess intact given location, market size, lack of state of the art arena, and an owner who may not be as rich or invested as orginally speculated.

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11-22-2012, 10:04 PM
  #642
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Henrik Lundqvist speaks up on life as one of the "cattle".

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/lock...9656--nhl.html

''It's important that we try to give back to different communities and to the fans, but to us players, we miss the game a lot. We do,'' Lundqvist said. ''This is our lives. There is a business side to this sport; there is no way around it. When it comes down to just playing the game, I miss the lifestyle, I miss traveling and playing the games and having the adrenaline. It's just such a big part of my life. It's definitely been a weird two months here not having that."

And on the monstrosity of having 1000 millionaires squabbling over how to divvy up a multi-billion dollar pie while the fans who pay the freight trudge off to their 50K jobs.

''I have all the emotions,'' Lundqvist said. ''I have some anger, disappointment, some embarrassment, too. I understand that the fans are disappointed, and it's hard to explain the whole situation. I don't think a lot of people know all the details and how much we really sacrificed to try to come closer to the owners. It doesn't really matter. They deserve the game out there to be played right now. I definitely feel a little embarrassment that we can't figure it out sooner."

Definitely plenty of embarrassment to go around .....

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11-22-2012, 10:13 PM
  #643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
Apparently, the players held a tentative vote on decertification yesterday and it passed. That's why the idea is gaining steam.
Link?

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11-22-2012, 10:14 PM
  #644
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Why not let the NHLPA go ahead and decertify if that's the extent to which they are willing to go? Seriously.

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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
Maybe i'm too pessemistic about the end result if this were to happen though, especially for the Oilers who i don't think would come out of that kind of mess intact given location, market size, lack of state of the art arena, and an owner who may not be as rich or invested as orginally speculated.
It would only be bad for Edmonton if all contracts were wiped out. I can't see that happening. And even if it did happen, and stipulating that all the reasons you give above are valid, would Katz really be willing to risk his $300 million investment in the team by signing a bunch of rejects and watching the value of his franchise plummet?

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11-22-2012, 10:15 PM
  #645
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Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
I thought the biggest difference in those cases was the suits brought to keep the league from collecting large amounts of TV money, the NHL doesn't exactly have that same problem.
And I think that's what a lot of the players fail to grasp. And remember, both the NFLPA and NBAPA are full of guys who have at least some form of post-secondary education. And generally the ones you saw spouting off at the mouth about things were the few who didn't (Garnett, Lebron).

I have a lot more faith in either the NFLPA or NBAPA to make an educated decision over the NHLPA. Hell, every NFL team has at least one brainiac in their Punter who usually payed attention in school, because seriously, punting isn't exactly a job where you are making big bucks.

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11-22-2012, 10:38 PM
  #646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
It would only be bad for Edmonton if all contracts were wiped out. I can't see that happening. And even if it did happen, and stipulating that all the reasons you give above are valid, would Katz really be willing to risk his $300 million investment in the team by signing a bunch of rejects and watching the value of his franchise plummet?
You're assuming Katz would have a choice. Under existing systems, obtaining and retaining talent is an issue for a team based in this city. Under a system with no contractual rules, it may prove to be insurmountable.

It's not about the short term for contracts that already exist, that is the myopic outlook the players are currently operating under.

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11-22-2012, 10:46 PM
  #647
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Well I think the Decertify thing is just a bluff that shows how far Fehr is willing to take this. The players seriously have to send this guy packing. If in theory the players decertify it would be good for maybe a handfull of star players. The vast majority would suffer.

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11-22-2012, 10:47 PM
  #648
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
Why not let the NHLPA go ahead and decertify if that's the extent to which they are willing to go? Seriously.



It would only be bad for Edmonton if all contracts were wiped out. I can't see that happening. And even if it did happen, and stipulating that all the reasons you give above are valid, would Katz really be willing to risk his $300 million investment in the team by signing a bunch of rejects and watching the value of his franchise plummet?
Decertification doesn't wipe out contracts. It just wipes out the PA and then the players sue the owners saying that they are not honoring the contracts. Basically everything under the CBA is gone, it's just a straight money for work type deal. No draft, no RFA's, no pensions, no guaranteed contracts.

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11-22-2012, 10:49 PM
  #649
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I'm not missing the point, you're not making one that stands up well to contextual scrutiny. As such your points come off as specious in nature by ignoring the obvious benefits the players do derive

To wit:

Multimillion buck annual salaries. All expenses paid, all benefits paid.

Revenue sharing

League wide salary disclosure with information on contracts being immediately available to anybody.

NHLPA mentorship in contracts and from an association that freely submits memos to players and their agents if its felt a key player negotiation is headed lowball.

Arbitration

Minimum league wide salary. (which impacts a significant amount of player contracts and not only the ones that are league minimum but those that are scraping bottom. Much like any legislated minimum wage impacts what all lower wages look like.)

Your best argument comes in the form that this specific association has become so incompetent, so misaligned, so dysfunctional that they end up firing Kelly for this in the midst of a US, and global recession.
Opting for great concessions and demands in this context.
When 50/50 would clearly suffice fine for all.

This is not time and place for hardball player association rhetoric. Virtually nobody is buying the NHLPA's line in the sand. Ultimately your argument becomes the NHLPA membership is better off without itself and its constituent membership but then what is that really saying...
..its saying you have to scratch hard to find benefits to players in the restrictive covenants of CBA's either proposed or existing

Salary Caps - extremely reduced bargaining power

Restrictive Free Agency - reduced bargaining power

Limiting Contact length - reduced bargaining power

Qualifying Offers - reduced bargaining power

RFA compensation - reduced bargaining power

..and on and on

The sole purpose of CBA's in professional sports is to artificially constrict the market value of professional athlete's vis a vis reserve clauses, reserve clauses that can ONLY be granted to a league via union approval

Great athlete's in popular sports are gonna make bank, they have unique talents in a high demand market. CBA's aren't creating the market value for the professional athlete, scarcity is.

Here's a great pod cast that covers several of these topics;
http://www.econtalk.org/archives/sports/

- the inherent weakness of players unions
- private anti-trust and how it effect sports
- how European sports leagues somehow successfully exist without player unions/anit-trust/reserve clauses
- the unbelievable circumstance where reserve clauses can only be granted to leagues via a union

it's an hour well spent

And on the topic of minimum salaries, it's one of the biggest abominations of sports CBA's, as fans we should pray for their removal. The idea that there should be wage protection for the bottom 25% is asinine and it simple terms reduces the value of the product.

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11-22-2012, 10:52 PM
  #650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
Informal vote for decertification huh? Does the "informal" mean - "all the players with big front loaded contracts in Fehr's inner circle who don't care if they screw over the majority of their union members? The same ones that have been dictating the focus of the NHLPA's bargaining efforts from the start?

There would be massive repercussions to players in this scenario - ie. the removal of close 300+ jobs avaliable to players within a few years as teams begin to fold due to the inability to compete or make money, and that would probably only be the start. NHL players have an exceptionally good thing going for a niche sport with limited appeal in the major markets of the US, they would essentially be willing to kill the league to ensure they get paid over the next 2 years.

It's ridiculious.

Maybe i'm too pessemistic about the end result if this were to happen though, especially for the Oilers who i don't think would come out of that kind of mess intact given location, market size, lack of state of the art arena, and an owner who may not be as rich or invested as orginally speculated.
European soccer has shown the exact opposite to be true, the absence of unions and CBA's has seen, increase in teams, increase in revenues and increase in players salaries.

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