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Old
11-22-2012, 11:54 PM
  #651
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Originally Posted by molsonmuscle360 View Post
And I think that's what a lot of the players fail to grasp. And remember, both the NFLPA and NBAPA are full of guys who have at least some form of post-secondary education. And generally the ones you saw spouting off at the mouth about things were the few who didn't (Garnett, Lebron).

I have a lot more faith in either the NFLPA or NBAPA to make an educated decision over the NHLPA. Hell, every NFL team has at least one brainiac in their Punter who usually payed attention in school, because seriously, punting isn't exactly a job where you are making big bucks.
Terrible analysis

the CBA signed by the NFLPA is easily the worst in sports in terms of player favourability

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11-22-2012, 11:56 PM
  #652
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European soccer has shown the exact opposite to be true, the absence of unions and CBA's has seen, increase in teams, increase in revenues and increase in players salaries.
And no parity.

So you want to go back to the bad old good old days when we couldnt afford to keep our best players?

Best of luck to you.

Im not interested in following the Kansas City Royals.

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11-23-2012, 12:01 AM
  #653
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Before the fear mongering over the oilers losing all their talent gets out of hand, it'd be nice if we got some facts from experts. And no, i'm not including Kypreos among them.

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11-23-2012, 12:06 AM
  #654
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And no parity.

So you want to go back to the bad old good old days when we couldnt afford to keep our best players?

Best of luck to you.

Im not interested in following the Kansas City Royals.
Competitive balance is certainly an argument against an EPL like structure, no argument from me, although others would argue not having lockouts every year and not getting a watered down product are small prices to pay for the imbalance in EPL competition.

There is very little difference in competitive balance between MLB and the NHL

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11-23-2012, 12:08 AM
  #655
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Before the fear mongering over the oilers losing all their talent gets out of hand, it'd be nice if we got some facts from experts. And no, i'm not including Kypreos among them.
It was discussed during the NBA decertification that any attempt void past contracts by the league would be a tough legal case for the league to win unless there was specific language in the contracts pertaining to decertification.

More likely it would affect player contracts going forward

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11-23-2012, 12:13 AM
  #656
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Competitive balance is certainly an argument against an EPL like structure, no argument from me, although others would argue not having lockouts every year and not getting a watered down product are small prices to pay for the imbalance in EPL competition.

There is very little difference in competitive balance between MLB and the NHL
Well, the cap hasnt worked as we thought it would, in part because there have been a handful of loopholes that were exposed and taken full advantage of by the usual suspects, and there is already something on the table (trading cap space) that will work against the spirit of the cap for the proposed new cba.

So yes, the owners have dropped the ball when it comes to devising and implementing a system that protects them from themselves as well as keeping the players happy. Frankly someone needs to be fired (looking at you Gary) for that.

If and when the Toronto Maple Leafs or the New York Rangers perennially make the conference finals, you can say the nhl is like mlb. Until then it most certainly is not, although it has its own share of problems.

All Im saying that as a fan, Im done if they go back to that type of structure/economy.

The NFL is the model the NHL and all other leagues should be emulating, not MLB.

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11-23-2012, 12:15 AM
  #657
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Before the fear mongering over the oilers losing all their talent gets out of hand, it'd be nice if we got some facts from experts. And no, i'm not including Kypreos among them.
Agreed, way too much freaking out about a potential decertification that has a way better chance of backfiring on the PA than going nuclear on the NHL. Chances are very good that it won't even pass through the courts and they will rule in favor of the NHL.
It's a last ditch effort to move negotiations along. Too much paranoia around here about decertification actually working and the NHL turning into a free for all. It won't happen.

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11-23-2012, 12:15 AM
  #658
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Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
It was discussed during the NBA decertification that any attempt void past contracts by the league would be a tough legal case for the league to win unless there was specific language in the contracts pertaining to decertification.

More likely it would affect player contracts going forward
There would be no more NMC or NTC protection for one. Welcome to Stockton Horcoff. No rules stating he can only be demoted to OKC either.

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11-23-2012, 12:17 AM
  #659
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Why would contracts not be voided? Isn't in right in the SPC that it is dependent on a CBA or something like that?

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11-23-2012, 12:17 AM
  #660
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Agreed, way too much freaking out about a potential decertification that has a way better chance of backfiring on the PA than going nuclear on the NHL. Chances are very good that it won't even pass through the courts and they will rule in favor of the NHL.
It's a last ditch effort to move negotiations along. Too much paranoia around here about decertification actually working and the NHL turning into a free for all. It won't happen.
None of us really know what will happen, but really, what else is there to talk about?

Also, nobody has been able to give me a reasonable explanation for why Fehr is dragging his feet. Seems to me it is his clients that are the only ones losing money at a rapid rate.

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11-23-2012, 12:17 AM
  #661
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European soccer has shown the exact opposite to be true, the absence of unions and CBA's has seen, increase in teams, increase in revenues and increase in players salaries.
Soccer is also the world's most popular sport with a huge demand. In comparison, the NHL has arguably overstepped what the north american market can support. Without a CBA to artifically support those fledging franchises in the interest of "growing the game", it faces contraction in all aspects - that includes player union inflated rights, salary, and jobs.

Also, it hurts the fans as IATL already stated, competitive parity goes out the window.

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11-23-2012, 12:22 AM
  #662
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None of us really know what will happen, but really, what else is there to talk about?

Also, nobody has been able to give me a reasonable explanation for why Fehr is dragging his feet. Seems to me it is his clients that are the only ones losing money at a rapid rate.
Maybe decertification is his endgame, who knows? The guy has an elite poker face, nobody knows what he's thinking.
All i'm saying is that the chances of decertification actually working and the NHL turning into one big free for all, players going to the highest bidder is the biggest longshot of all longshots.
There is no precedent for it actually coming to that in any major sport. There's a better chance that they strike a deal before the end of the weekend.

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11-23-2012, 12:29 AM
  #663
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One interesting possibility with decertification is we could see a second franchise in Toronto. Right now the league is able to carve out certain sections of the country for exclusive use by a team. Under antitrust law that would now be illegal.

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11-23-2012, 12:33 AM
  #664
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One interesting possibility with decertification is we could see a second franchise in Toronto. Right now the league is able to carve out certain sections of the country for exclusive use by a team. Under antitrust law that would now be illegal.
Franchise rules are covered under the NHL Constitution. I highly doubt that anyone could force the nhl to accept new franchises.

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11-23-2012, 12:44 AM
  #665
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..its saying you have to scratch hard to find benefits to players in the restrictive covenants of CBA's either proposed or existing

Salary Caps - extremely reduced bargaining power

Restrictive Free Agency - reduced bargaining power

Limiting Contact length - reduced bargaining power

Qualifying Offers - reduced bargaining power

RFA compensation - reduced bargaining power

..and on and on

The sole purpose of CBA's in professional sports is to artificially constrict the market value of professional athlete's vis a vis reserve clauses, reserve clauses that can ONLY be granted to a league via union approval

Great athlete's in popular sports are gonna make bank, they have unique talents in a high demand market. CBA's aren't creating the market value for the professional athlete, scarcity is.

Here's a great pod cast that covers several of these topics;
http://www.econtalk.org/archives/sports/

- the inherent weakness of players unions
- private anti-trust and how it effect sports
- how European sports leagues somehow successfully exist without player unions/anit-trust/reserve clauses
- the unbelievable circumstance where reserve clauses can only be granted to leagues via a union

it's an hour well spent

And on the topic of minimum salaries, it's one of the biggest abominations of sports CBA's, as fans we should pray for their removal. The idea that there should be wage protection for the bottom 25% is asinine and it simple terms reduces the value of the product.
First I give you huge props for putting up a link to Econ Talk. Great pod cast.

However, I disagree with most of what you say. There is no question that some elite players would be better of with out a CBA. You are correct scarcity is the major driver of value in the NHL and professional sports. Without premier talent, there is no reason to watch. However, it isn't just athletes. No one tunes in to watch the best bachy ball players or darts championships. A great sport and a great league still creates a lot of value. It isn't just elite talent.

2nd and the big point the less scarce players would suffer. There is no way that the min wage in the NHL would be 800K if there was no CBA. The bottom end players would be getting like 100k. So the CBA hurts top talent, but it helps the majority of players. The bottom line is the players are getting 57% of revenue. How can you argue they are getting the shaft when they make that much. It simply doesn't pass the sniff test.

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11-23-2012, 12:51 AM
  #666
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European soccer has shown the exact opposite to be true, the absence of unions and CBA's has seen, increase in teams, increase in revenues and increase in players salaries.
I do admit you make a very interesting case. I do think you over rate it though. I think if the NHL went to decertification it would end up not that different. Some teams would fold, some would relocate, elite players would get more and lower talent less. The game wouldn't grow though. The pie would be the same size it would just be divided up differently. The bottom line is the rules don't seem to matter that much. If you changed everythign you suggest I think you see the same basic result, but the players would make 57% of a smaller pie.

I think Mark Reechi actually made the best point in the simplest way. If the players play they get paid. It doesn't seem to matter what happens, the players will get paid....... so long as they play. They need to just sign the agreement and get back on the ice.


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11-23-2012, 01:17 AM
  #667
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How can you argue they are getting the shaft when they make that much. It simply doesn't pass the sniff test.
Easy. No cap, the players got much more. This isn't something that's up for debate either, it's a historical fact.

If the top tier players are worth THAT much (and they are, compared to your 4th line Biznasty (also, I'm glad to note that no one lumps Parros into that same bracket, because he's SMRT and not a dumbass goon like Bissonnette is) then your Moreau types will make 100k and RNH will get Katz's jet to romp around in, if Daryl can keep him.

Bottom line, I actually sort of hope all the pro-owner types see decertification. I can't wait to see RNH centering Hall and Eberle on the Flyers or Rangers. Because we all know our native son Daryl just can't make it work here, it's too hard, and very sad...and he needs 500M of your money.

Don't worry though, the Jason Krog types will be falling all over themselves to sign in Edmonton. You'll be paying more than you do now for tickets, of course, but you'll also eat it up and beg for more.

You're also wrong about darts. Send Phil Taylor and Taylor Hall on a world tour together and see who gets recognized more. Also, you are aware that darts players, the top end ones, broke away and started their own professional organization, right?

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11-23-2012, 01:32 AM
  #668
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The strongest aspect of the last CBA (and what probably saved several franchises from already folding) is the parity that's worked into the system.

Kill that ingrained parity and you kill fan interest in many "also-ran" markets... which kills the franchises and in the end kills hockey at the NHL level as it becomes less and less meaningful in terms of being a major league sport across North America.

The facts are the salary cap HAS to stay, the teams from 1-30 have to have similar if not more parity in terms of the salary cap floor and ceiling being close together. The current 16 million gap should probably be tightened even more and have more revenue sharing to insure MOST franchises have a shot at profitability if managed and run well.

This isn't MLB where teams get good attendance (enough to keep them alive at least) just because it's a national pastime. No one will give two figs for an NHL team that perennially sucks in a "non-traditional" hockey market. At least some parity has to be built into the system to at least try and produce as level a playing field for all teams as possible.

Decertification, removal of the salary cap etc, won't accomplish anything except send us back a decade when many teams were on the verge of folding and many had no hope of being competitive.

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11-23-2012, 01:40 AM
  #669
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Easy. No cap, the players got much more. This isn't something that's up for debate either, it's a historical fact.

If the top tier players are worth THAT much (and they are, compared to your 4th line Biznasty (also, I'm glad to note that no one lumps Parros into that same bracket, because he's SMRT and not a dumbass goon like Bissonnette is) then your Moreau types will make 100k and RNH will get Katz's jet to romp around in, if Daryl can keep him.

Bottom line, I actually sort of hope all the pro-owner types see decertification. I can't wait to see RNH centering Hall and Eberle on the Flyers or Rangers. Because we all know our native son Daryl just can't make it work here, it's too hard, and very sad...and he needs 500M of your money.

Don't worry though, the Jason Krog types will be falling all over themselves to sign in Edmonton. You'll be paying more than you do now for tickets, of course, but you'll also eat it up and beg for more.

You're also wrong about darts. Send Phil Taylor and Taylor Hall on a world tour together and see who gets recognized more. Also, you are aware that darts players, the top end ones, broke away and started their own professional organization, right?
Not surprising you would say that.

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11-23-2012, 01:47 AM
  #670
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Not surprising you would say that.
Of course it isn't. Also, are you just lazy or inept? If you're going to bold one sentence, do you really need the rest of the rant?

You're making the claim that in a world without a standard player contract the current owner of the Oilers would be able to keep those three together, yes? The only difference between Edmonton and Columbus is that the few fans in Columbus actually turn their nose up at dog ****. (And for what it's worth, I'll be the idiot in the RNH jersey.)

Enjoy Teubert on opening night, whenever that is.

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11-23-2012, 02:00 AM
  #671
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Of course it isn't. Also, are you just lazy or inept? If you're going to bold one sentence, do you really need the rest of the rant?
Are those the only two choices?

Oops, I did it again!

Quote:
You're making the claim that in a world without a standard player contract the current owner of the Oilers would be able to keep those three together, yes?
Where in the world did I ever say that?

In fact I believe Ive said the exact opposite. Have you not bothered to read my posts before labeling me? Would you call that being lazy or inept?

Quote:
The only difference between Edmonton and Columbus is that the few fans in Columbus actually turn their nose up at dog ****. (And for what it's worth, I'll be the idiot in the RNH jersey.)
What would you know about either fanbase? You clearly arent a part of either.

Quote:
Enjoy Teubert on opening night, whenever that is.
Not sure if Teubert would be on the opening night roster but if he were I wouldnt have a problem with a player achieving a level of success that I myself could never have achieved. Good for him. Not sure why anyone would take shots at the guy.

I guess that's just the way you roll.

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11-23-2012, 02:05 AM
  #672
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Easy. No cap, the players got much more. This isn't something that's up for debate either, it's a historical fact.

If the top tier players are worth THAT much (and they are, compared to your 4th line Biznasty (also, I'm glad to note that no one lumps Parros into that same bracket, because he's SMRT and not a dumbass goon like Bissonnette is) then your Moreau types will make 100k and RNH will get Katz's jet to romp around in, if Daryl can keep him.

Bottom line, I actually sort of hope all the pro-owner types see decertification. I can't wait to see RNH centering Hall and Eberle on the Flyers or Rangers. Because we all know our native son Daryl just can't make it work here, it's too hard, and very sad...and he needs 500M of your money.

Don't worry though, the Jason Krog types will be falling all over themselves to sign in Edmonton. You'll be paying more than you do now for tickets, of course, but you'll also eat it up and beg for more.

You're also wrong about darts. Send Phil Taylor and Taylor Hall on a world tour together and see who gets recognized more. Also, you are aware that darts players, the top end ones, broke away and started their own professional organization, right?
Nope. Before the last lockout my interest in the Oilers and the NHL was waning. Being a life long fan of the Oilers it is impossible to watch a team you love have no hope of winning. It's heart wrenching to watch Doug Weight lead the oilers to 10 straight wins and then get traded because you can't afford him. Sure, the oil beating Dallas and Colorado those 2 years was fun but the entire time it was known the clock would inevitably strike midnight.

Given parity, I believe oil fans have been rejuevenated if it's taken away now look out. A sold out rexall paying top dollar for last place hockey can only be explained if they're selling hope. If this decertification results in the Oilers losing Hall, Eberle, and Nuge do you think rexall will be sold out next December watching last place hockey? You might as well put Expos jerseys on whoever is left on the Oilers because baby its curtains.

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11-23-2012, 02:07 AM
  #673
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Nope. Before the last lockout my interest in the Oilers and the NHL was waning. Being a life long fan of the Oilers it is impossible to watch a team you love have no hope of winning. It's heart wrenching to watch Doug Weight lead the oilers to 10 straight wins and then get traded because you can't afford him. Sure, the oil beating Dallas and Colorado those 2 years was fun but the entire time it was known the clock would inevitably strike midnight.

Given parity, I believe oil fans have been rejuevenated if it's taken away now look out. A sold out rexall paying top dollar for last place hockey can only be explained if they're selling hope. If this decertification results in the Oilers losing Hall, Eberle, and Nuge do you think rexall will be sold out next December watching last place hockey? You might as well put Expos jerseys on whoever is left on the Oilers because baby its curtains.
This^

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11-23-2012, 02:24 AM
  #674
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Nope. Before the last lockout my interest in the Oilers and the NHL was waning. Being a life long fan of the Oilers it is impossible to watch a team you love have no hope of winning. It's heart wrenching to watch Doug Weight lead the oilers to 10 straight wins and then get traded because you can't afford him. Sure, the oil beating Dallas and Colorado those 2 years was fun but the entire time it was known the clock would inevitably strike midnight.

Given parity, I believe oil fans have been rejuevenated if it's taken away now look out. A sold out rexall paying top dollar for last place hockey can only be explained if they're selling hope. If this decertification results in the Oilers losing Hall, Eberle, and Nuge do you think rexall will be sold out next December watching last place hockey? You might as well put Expos jerseys on whoever is left on the Oilers because baby its curtains.
Which is my point. I think most Oiler fans are too stupid to realize this and will keep purchasing tickets for a crap team in a nice building they paid for. Probably for about 10 years, or until Daryl comes begging for an upgrade.

Evidence for that? The last two seasons should suffice.

At least they'll have a nice building.

I've been there since the early 80's. At least when we couldn't afford Weight, we actually won a few games.

Bettman has no idea what he's flirting with, and frankly, I don't think he cares.

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11-23-2012, 02:24 AM
  #675
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I hope there is a season this year just so I can see Hamrlik destroy Eric Cole in the corner next time Montreal plays Washington.

But really the NHL is pushing their fans to the limit. I can only imagine what we will be thinking of this lockout years from now. At worst it could be the mark of the end of the NHL as we know it, I can't believe it has actually gotten this bad.

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I think most Oiler fans are too stupid to realize this and will keep purchasing tickets for a crap team in a nice building they paid for.
Edmonton fans know more about what is going on with their team than 90% of the league. They weren't stupid for packing the building when we sucked, they were just hardcore fans. If the players are taken away from Edmonton then there would be a tremendous fan revolt.

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