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Old
11-22-2012, 09:42 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by BigMacJokinen View Post
How about just taking the best value from Toronto is giving and then flip unwanted assets to other 28 teams to improve the roster?
Simple. Because Toronto has nothing of value.

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11-22-2012, 09:58 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Simple. Because Toronto has nothing of value.
They have a lot of valuable pieces to move - Leaf fans just like to think of the franchises 10 best assets as untouchable. Which is ironic considering Luongo has been a franchise player over the better part of his career.

I don't mind a quantity for quality deal, but the Canucks must add size if that's the route they're going.

To Tor- Luongo, Raymond
To Van- Kulemin, Finn, Frattin, Connolly

Sedin Sedin Burrows
Booth Kesler Higgins
Kulemin Connolly Hansen
Frattin Lapierre Kassian

More size on the wings and some much needed playmaking for the 2nd PP unit.

Gives Gillis a young dman to dangle to bring in an impact player for the 2nd line. Should be doable, especially if his 1st rd pick is on the table as well.

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11-22-2012, 10:05 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
They have a lot of valuable pieces to move - Leaf fans just like to think of the franchises 10 best assets as untouchable. Which is ironic considering Luongo has been a franchise player over the better part of his career.

I don't mind a quantity for quality deal, but the Canucks must add size if that's the route they're going.

To Tor- Luongo, Raymond
To Van- Kulemin, Finn, Frattin, Connolly

Sedin Sedin Burrows
Booth Kesler Higgins
Kulemin Connolly Hansen
Frattin Lapierre Kassian

More size on the wings and some much needed playmaking for the 2nd PP unit.

Gives Gillis a young dman to dangle to bring in an impact player for the 2nd line. Should be doable, especially if his 1st rd pick is on the table as well.

Appreciate the effort Sopel, but cue your fellow Nucks fans telling that offer is crap. I'd actually do it.

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11-22-2012, 10:11 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Appreciate the effort Sopel, but cue your fellow Nucks fans telling that offer is crap. I'd actually do it.
It's not a best case scenario for the Canucks by any means. But I don't see the Luongo departure ending with a best case scenario - there just don't appear to be enough suitors.

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11-22-2012, 10:13 PM
  #130
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Appreciate the effort Sopel, but cue your fellow Nucks fans telling that offer is crap.
It's not crap, it's just not good enough.

We already have plenty of 2nd/3rd line tweeners, we need a consistent top 6 forward.
And even though we don't get a top 6 forward in Sopel's proposed deal, we don't even get a high level prospect.

If the only "need" we fill in the Luongo trade is a 3rd line center (who even then is injury prone and not the type of 3rd line center the Canucks want), I feel like the Canucks could easily get a better deal elsewhere/from Florida.

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11-22-2012, 10:16 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
It's not a best case scenario for the Canucks by any means. But I don't see the Luongo departure ending with a best case scenario - there just don't appear to be enough suitors.
Unknown how many suitors there are. Right now it's the leaf fanboys in the media pushing their leaf agenda. Down to convincing the general public about Luongo's worth (nothing) while acting like every leaf is a valuable asset.

Gillis has an idea for Lu's worth and I don't think he'll waiver much from it. Especially if he's to be traded to the Leafs where he'll immediately be anointed the saviour once again and nothin less than 3-1sts would be valid compensation in trading him again.

If Gardiner was a Sen, his value would be average.

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11-22-2012, 10:22 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
It's not crap, it's just not good enough.

We already have plenty of 2nd/3rd line tweeners, we need a consistent top 6 forward.
And even though we don't get a top 6 forward in Sopel's proposed deal, we don't even get a high level prospect.

If the only "need" we fill in the Luongo trade is a 3rd line center (who even then is injury prone and not the type of 3rd line center the Canucks want), I feel like the Canucks could easily get a better deal elsewhere/from Florida.
Matt Finn is a high level prospect. I would take him over Kadri.

Not convinced the Canucks could easily get a better deal from Florida.



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Originally Posted by LiquidSnake View Post
Gillis has an idea for Lu's worth and I don't think he'll waiver much from it.
He might have to if he wants to address team needs by the deadline and nobody is offering what he wants.

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11-22-2012, 10:24 PM
  #133
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Matt Finn is a high level prospect. I would take him over Kadri.

Not convinced the Canucks could easily get a better deal from Florida.





He might have to if he wants to address team needs by the deadline and nobody is offering what he wants.
If he does indeed hang on to him for a bit, I think the price for Lu will be directly proportional to the success/failure of specific teams.

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11-22-2012, 10:31 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
They have a lot of valuable pieces to move - Leaf fans just like to think of the franchises 10 best assets as untouchable. Which is ironic considering Luongo has been a franchise player over the better part of his career.

I don't mind a quantity for quality deal, but the Canucks must add size if that's the route they're going.

To Tor- Luongo, Raymond
To Van- Kulemin, Finn, Frattin, Connolly

Sedin Sedin Burrows
Booth Kesler Higgins
Kulemin Connolly Hansen
Frattin Lapierre Kassian

More size on the wings and some much needed playmaking for the 2nd PP unit.

Gives Gillis a young dman to dangle to bring in an impact player for the 2nd line. Should be doable, especially if his 1st rd pick is on the table as well.
It's not that it is bad value wise, it makes no sense. Both Kuli, and Connolly are the wrong pieces. As good as Kuli is, we don't need another tweener winger. If we are getting a center to play 3rd line, I would way rather Bozak. I think Gillis would rather have him as well. I would really like a first as well.

Bozak
Frattin - another piece we know Gillis is interested in
Finn - I think I want him most from the D, but if I could get the 1st, I may be willing to do Percy/Blacker
1st - I would fight hard to have it included.

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11-22-2012, 10:35 PM
  #135
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Don't start that again.

It was also quite clear the Canucks played stingier defense with Schneider in net....almost like they took #1 for granted.
That is what I saw as well.

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11-22-2012, 10:36 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
There's no doubting Luongo's value but Cam Charron sure comes to some odd conclusions with his 'analysis'. He deems Luongo the better goaltender than Schneider because he was given more starts, even though Schneider performed better when given the opportunity. Strange conclusion there...

Cory Schneider was the better player last season and it's just not debatable. His ability to scramble and save 2nd chance opportunities is really where he's shown to be the stronger of the 2 goaltenders. This reflects in his work on the PK, where athleticism really shows through.

Did anyone that followed this team think Luongo looked like the better goaltender last season?
I guess it depends on how you interpret the article. I'm not going to get in to a 'who's the better goalie debate'. I'm more concerned with things Cam brought up such as consistency/durability and how they're undervalued. I think we (as Nuck fans lately) have been so used to getting both attributes from our goaltending, we might have forgotten what it's like to have the opposite.

Nothing makes me more nervous than trading a 'sure' asset to let an 'unknown' take over in the most important position on your team. I'd prefer Gillis mitigates the risk by keeping Luongo as a safety net for as long as possible.

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11-22-2012, 10:43 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
It's not that it is bad value wise, it makes no sense. Both Kuli, and Connolly are the wrong pieces. As good as Kuli is, we don't need another tweener winger. If we are getting a center to play 3rd line, I would way rather Bozak. I think Gillis would rather have him as well. I would really like a first as well.
Connolly is coming off a poor season but he's still a guy that has averaged 63P/82G over the last 6 years. Connolly, not unlike Tanguay when the Flames signed him coming off a bad year could be a good gamble to take. The last 2 years for Connolly haven't been his best but he was close to a PPG centre the 4 previous years, in injury shortened seasons.

You have to look at what type of minutes our 3rd line centre will see when determining who is of more use, Connolly or Bozak. Kesler being on the 1st PP unit means we need our 3rd line centre to carry the 2nd PP unit - this is a role Connolly has filled in the past, one in which Bozak just can't. The Canucks also have Kesler, Lapierre and Malhotra to utilize in defensive situations - they don't need the 3rd line to play shutdown minutes and would be better served using that trio to help chip in offense IMO - another area Connolly would likely be more reliable than Bozak.

It's just no comparison for me between these 2. One of them has the ability to play like an impact player, the other just doesn't. Slightly more risk with Connolly, much more reward.

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11-22-2012, 10:53 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Appreciate the effort Sopel, but cue your fellow Nucks fans telling that offer is crap. I'd actually do it.
of course you would do it, just like we would trade a 2nd round for phil kessel.

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Old
11-22-2012, 10:58 PM
  #139
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Connolly is coming off a poor season but he's still a guy that has averaged 63P/82G over the last 6 years. Connolly, not unlike Tanguay when the Flames signed him coming off a bad year could be a good gamble to take. The last 2 years for Connolly haven't been his best but he was close to a PPG centre the 4 previous years, in injury shortened seasons.

You have to look at what type of minutes our 3rd line centre will see when determining who is of more use, Connolly or Bozak. Kesler being on the 1st PP unit means we need our 3rd line centre to carry the 2nd PP unit - this is a role Connolly has filled in the past, one in which Bozak just can't. The Canucks also have Kesler, Lapierre and Malhotra to utilize in defensive situations - they don't need the 3rd line to play shutdown minutes and would be better served using that trio to help chip in offense IMO - another area Connolly would likely be more reliable than Bozak.

It's just no comparison for me between these 2. One of them has the ability to play like an impact player, the other just doesn't. Slightly more risk with Connolly, much more reward.
First straight Value wise, one is a cap dump, the other out played him, and garnered first line minutes, he is younger has more upside, and we know Gillis tried to get him out of school.

You hit the nail on the head with Connelly, when not injured. Offensive player, does this sound like the type of player AV likes playing as 3rd line center?

Kesler had his most productive year when Manny was playing all the defensive minutes Kes normally does. He fits the mold much better of what the Canucks look for in a 3rd line center, and when the team played it's best.

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11-22-2012, 11:22 PM
  #140
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First straight Value wise, one is a cap dump, the other out played him, and garnered first line minutes, he is younger has more upside, and we know Gillis tried to get him out of school.

You hit the nail on the head with Connelly, when not injured. Offensive player, does this sound like the type of player AV likes playing as 3rd line center?

Kesler had his most productive year when Manny was playing all the defensive minutes Kes normally does. He fits the mold much better of what the Canucks look for in a 3rd line center, and when the team played it's best.
Bozak's best has paled in comparison to Connolly's best. There is no reason to believe that will change anytime soon. Being younger doesn't equate to better, especially for a team in Vancouver's position.

Gillis and co. have made it known Jordan Schroeder is a serious candidate for the role of 3rd line centre. They wouldn't do so if the coaching staff was unwilling to ice a skilled player on that line. There has been an offensive player at 3C for 3 of the last 4 years - 2 with Wellwood, 1 with Hodgson and 1 with Malhotra...

Not to mention, Malhotra could still fill the same role he did in '10-11 with Connolly on the 3rd line. It would just make the 4th line the shutdown line. I would take 3 offensive lines and a shutdown line over 2 offensive lines, a shutdown line and a grinding, no offense line every day of the week.

Bozak will never garner Tim Connolly money. He's just an inferior player.

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11-23-2012, 12:18 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Bozak's best has paled in comparison to Connolly's best. There is no reason to believe that will change anytime soon. Being younger doesn't equate to better, especially for a team in Vancouver's position.

Gillis and co. have made it known Jordan Schroeder is a serious candidate for the role of 3rd line centre. They wouldn't do so if the coaching staff was unwilling to ice a skilled player on that line. There has been an offensive player at 3C for 3 of the last 4 years - 2 with Wellwood, 1 with Hodgson and 1 with Malhotra...

Not to mention, Malhotra could still fill the same role he did in '10-11 with Connolly on the 3rd line. It would just make the 4th line the shutdown line. I would take 3 offensive lines and a shutdown line over 2 offensive lines, a shutdown line and a grinding, no offense line every day of the week.

Bozak will never garner Tim Connolly money. He's just an inferior player.
So you are counting the year we sheltered Hodgson, then shipped him out? To bring in another defensive center? You know one of the biggest differences with Hodgson and Shroeder? One plays very well on both sides of the puck. Otherwise Shroeder had also put up a better ppg average. So he is a looking to be the better player, but we will see if this translates to the NHL.

I am going off what Gillis has asked for Bozak, was one of the main pieces, personally I would like to try Shroeder, at the 3C, but not only has Gillis asked for him, he also tried to get him earlier n his career.

Again Connelly might put up better numbers, but what good is that when the guy is always on IR? Plus he costs more money, meaning to retain the asset it will cost us more to re-sign him.

Being younger equates to being in this case cheaper, more able to learn, more room to grow, greater potential. We know what we are getting in Connelly, an oft injured player, who is also expensive.

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11-23-2012, 12:33 AM
  #142
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I am going off what Gillis has asked for Bozak, was one of the main pieces
Somehow from a package of 1st (Rielly), Gardiner, Frattin and Bozak you've gathered that Bozak was a main piece?

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11-23-2012, 01:00 AM
  #143
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I don't mind a quantity for quality deal, but the Canucks must add size if that's the route they're going.

To Tor- Luongo, Raymond
To Van- Kulemin, Finn, Frattin, Connolly

Sedin Sedin Burrows
Booth Kesler Higgins
Kulemin Connolly Hansen
Frattin Lapierre Kassian

More size on the wings and some much needed playmaking for the 2nd PP unit.

Gives Gillis a young dman to dangle to bring in an impact player for the 2nd line. Should be doable, especially if his 1st rd pick is on the table as well.
I get the rationale behind including Kulemin as part of a deal - his size, defense, ES production and skating - but does the Russian factor come into play if we're considering him, since this is Gillis we're talking about here? Or does that only apply to drafting?

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You have to look at what type of minutes our 3rd line centre will see when determining who is of more use, Connolly or Bozak. Kesler being on the 1st PP unit means we need our 3rd line centre to carry the 2nd PP unit - this is a role Connolly has filled in the past, one in which Bozak just can't. The Canucks also have Kesler, Lapierre and Malhotra to utilize in defensive situations - they don't need the 3rd line to play shutdown minutes and would be better served using that trio to help chip in offense IMO - another area Connolly would likely be more reliable than Bozak.
I'm not so sure that the Canucks will be trying Kesler in his old shutdown-first role again, given the type of centre they've chosen to go with in that spot in the past (Malhotra, Pahlsson). Then again since Kesler is on the top PP unit with the Twins you want your 3C to be able to centre the 2nd unit, for however few minutes that's left for them to work with.

Of course, everything could have been so much better had we traded for Vermette instead of Pahlsson IMO. As he can score and play a two-way game.

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11-23-2012, 03:16 AM
  #144
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Okay. Watch some Marlies games. Come back in a month and tell me how you'd think those two would fit with the Canucks. They don't, unless Kadri miraculously becomes and effective player away from the puck and his compete level turns up 10 notches. He's flaky and AV would not play him. He'd sputter in the minors for a few years. If AV couldn't trust Hodgson out there, how in the hell would he trust Kadri?


What I meant by possession strength is that Kadri can "appear" defensively inept, but perhaps his underlying numbers suggest otherwise? This really is the Booth analysis all over again. Many contend that Booth sucks on the defense but statistical analysis says otherwise. By contrast, Hodgson's defensive numbers were weak. So what you saw of him was confirmed by the statistics... Bottom line, what you think you see and what is isn't always the same.



I've watched 3 marlies games this year. Particularly, the game against the SA Rampage, where Colborne and Kadri had "returned to form" and from which point Kadri started scoring at a higher than PPG rate. Let's just say that I think these two could hold their own in a depth role until they got comfortable and did more.



Essentially, I see them as Schroeder level prospects. And I expect no more from Schroeder than what I would project either of these guys to do. They're the same to me. What Schroeder gives up in size and production, Kadri makes up for in more production, and Colborne makes up for in size and a rarer toolset. All have distinct flaws that make you question their NHL viability. Yet, if we are projecting Schroeder to the 3C position -- which Gillis is -- then a 40 point Kadri on the 2nd line isn't outside of reality, nor is saying Colborne _could_ possibly crack this roster above a Schroeder.

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11-23-2012, 03:30 AM
  #145
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Connolly is coming off a poor season but he's still a guy that has averaged 63P/82G over the last 6 years. Connolly, not unlike Tanguay when the Flames signed him coming off a bad year could be a good gamble to take. The last 2 years for Connolly haven't been his best but he was close to a PPG centre the 4 previous years, in injury shortened seasons.

You have to look at what type of minutes our 3rd line centre will see when determining who is of more use, Connolly or Bozak. Kesler being on the 1st PP unit means we need our 3rd line centre to carry the 2nd PP unit - this is a role Connolly has filled in the past, one in which Bozak just can't. The Canucks also have Kesler, Lapierre and Malhotra to utilize in defensive situations - they don't need the 3rd line to play shutdown minutes and would be better served using that trio to help chip in offense IMO - another area Connolly would likely be more reliable than Bozak.

It's just no comparison for me between these 2. One of them has the ability to play like an impact player, the other just doesn't. Slightly more risk with Connolly, much more reward.


Interesting. Why do you suppose TO doesn't just deal off Bozak then and replace him with Connolly at 1C? Or that in the same environments, Bozak has already fared much better?



I'm also curious why Bozak "just can't" play on the 2nd PP unit and contribute? Is he atrocious on the PP?



Bozak is what he is. I'm not a fan. However, I think I'm even less of a fan of Connolly. Could have something to do with that 4.75m contract... BUF let him walk after he put up 42 in 68 games, and they were hurting at C. I wonder why?

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11-23-2012, 05:59 AM
  #146
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of course you would do it, just like we would trade a 2nd round for phil kessel.
Hey...i said we have crap. Talk to Sopel...it was his proposal.Besides...i wouldn't want to burden the Canucks with Kessel. He is a one dimensional player, not good on defense....not an "AV" kind of player. Just another Leaf overated tweener.


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11-23-2012, 08:14 AM
  #147
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Somehow from a package of 1st (Rielly), Gardiner, Frattin and Bozak you've gathered that Bozak was a main piece?
Be honest they were all main pieces. We know Bozak was as this is not the first time Gillis has tried to get him. Just like booth, it took him a while to get him.

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11-23-2012, 09:25 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Hey...i said we have crap. Talk to Sopel...it was his proposal.Besides...i wouldn't want to burden the Canucks with Kessel. He is a one dimensional player, not good on defense....not an "AV" kind of player. Just another Leaf overated tweener.
He was also willing to dump Luongo for Marcel Goc, so I really am glad that he has absolutely no say in any real Luongo trade.

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11-23-2012, 09:34 AM
  #149
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Simple. Because Toronto has nothing of value.
Simple because Toronto is UNWILLING to move anything of value. But I'm going to move on.

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11-23-2012, 09:37 AM
  #150
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Be honest they were all main pieces. We know Bozak was as this is not the first time Gillis has tried to get him. Just like booth, it took him a while to get him.
But we also know Gillis targetted Marc-Andre Gragnani for a while too, I think he probably targetted him as a 'free' prospect out of NCAA and used him as a throw in contract for his proposal.

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