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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VII: The Last Waltz "Cut the sheet & drop the puck!"

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Old
11-22-2012, 05:55 PM
  #526
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No, you can't.
It would make the calculation a little more difficult, but it could absolutely be done. It's not like they have the actual salaries nailed to the dollar now, it's still estimate-driven.

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11-22-2012, 07:20 PM
  #527
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First of all... happy thanksgiving to everyone.

Would be better if I could watch an NHL game but ... it is what it is.

We now have a PA offer so we have a better idea about the gaps that need to be closed. It's a start. The games for the 1st half of DEC should be cancelled soon but I'm still optimistic for a late Dec start.

The PA played their PR card (coming up with their plan) hoping to take a bit of pressure off themselves and it might work. I am a bit confused as to who will make the next move? My guess is that the two sides will meet over the weekend. My fear is that if neither side is willing to put forward a courageous stance we will incrementally move towards a compromise. The problem... it will take much longer to reach a settlement and the entire season will be cancelled if it takes too long. If nothing much materializes soon (2-3 weeks), I suspect that the league will come to the players with a final offer with no negotiations acceptable. It will then be up to the PA to either accept the deal or find work elsewhere for the season. I hope it doesn't come to that as no one benefits.

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11-22-2012, 09:40 PM
  #528
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Let the players decertify. Force the end to the lockout. Just like the NBA players did.

Both sides disgust me. Some Rangers have earned their way to the **** list as far as I'm concerned. Del Zotto is a seriously gifted young player, but he's a doosh bag. He really is. Rupp is a doosh bag too, but he's also a useless waste as a player.

End this ****ing lockout.

When the cap drops like a rock, get rid of garbage players like Rupp and Asham. And players like Gaborik and Del Zotto become cap casualties. Deal them for top prospects and picks. McDonagh, Staal, Girardi are FAR more important to this team moving forward.

http://snyrangersblog.com/2012-13-lo...ay-turned-out/

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11-22-2012, 09:59 PM
  #529
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Let the players decertify. Force the end to the lockout. Just like the NBA players did.

Both sides disgust me. Some Rangers have earned their way to the **** list as far as I'm concerned. Del Zotto is a seriously gifted young player, but he's a doosh bag. He really is. Rupp is a doosh bag too, but he's also a useless waste as a player.

End this ****ing lockout.

When the cap drops like a rock, get rid of garbage players like Rupp and Asham. And players like Gaborik and Del Zotto become cap casualties. Deal them for top prospects and picks. McDonagh, Staal, Girardi are FAR more important to this team moving forward.

http://snyrangersblog.com/2012-13-lo...ay-turned-out/
I don't think either players deserve the shout out. However, I will say that the PA hasn't really made a significant effort toward bargaining.

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11-22-2012, 10:12 PM
  #530
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He's absolutely right and I've been saying it all along. The PA is throwing away a season to stick up for the mega contracts of the NHL's 1% of players.

Kinda hilarious that all these pro-labor stooges feel like they are sticking it to the man when the vast majority of NHL players who actually need to play are getting screwed so Rick DiPietro can have his 12 year contract.

The PA doesn't give a damn about the players. They are only in it to protect the big dollar contracts for the guys at the top. Just like most unions end up screwing the little guy.

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Old
11-22-2012, 10:14 PM
  #531
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What s amazing is thy continue to argue about shares of revenue they will ever even come close to ever again. Both sides are under estimating the damage being done.

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11-22-2012, 10:53 PM
  #532
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What s amazing is thy continue to argue about shares of revenue they will ever even come close to ever again. Both sides are under estimating the damage being done.
Both sides know fans will comeback and use our loyalty against us. They will temporarily lower ticket prices and then jack them up again and revenues will grow

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11-23-2012, 08:10 AM
  #533
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Originally Posted by CM PUNK View Post
Both sides know fans will comeback and use our loyalty against us. They will temporarily lower ticket prices and then jack them up again and revenues will grow
I wouldn't count on them temporarily lowering anything. Both sides but especially the owners are driven by the same ethic.

For the fans this is an inconvenience that you'll either live with or not. IMO there is a lot of blame and you can spread it around. The league/owners set the table but the players get the brunt of the blame. Another opinion--I don't like the wealth disparity in this country. Guys knocking around baseballs and hockey pucks should not be making a hundred times what a wal-mart worker makes in one year--nor should corporate executives make hundreds of times what their workers make. IMO there should be limits to wealth. That's not going to happen at least without some mind boggling catastrophe.

In any case I'm finding I can live without all this for now. I'll be back when they're back.

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Old
11-23-2012, 08:33 AM
  #534
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Originally Posted by CM PUNK View Post
Both sides know fans will comeback and use our loyalty against us. They will temporarily lower ticket prices and then jack them up again and revenues will grow
Dolan will not reduce anything!!!! You can count on it. Only small struggling market may reduce prices.

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11-23-2012, 09:02 AM
  #535
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I don't think either players deserve the shout out. However, I will say that the PA hasn't really made a significant effort toward bargaining.
The owners are bargaining? Simply reducing demands and making no concession is bargaining? The PA is no group of saints but lets call a spade a spade.

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11-23-2012, 09:32 AM
  #536
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And you think then they'd suddenly offer more than 50% of revenue? I doubt it. 50:50 split in the long rund is all but guaranteed. The only question left on the money side is how to get there. And if there's no season, then the transition gets easier with many contracts running out. And if there's no season next year either, there's not even a need for any transition anymore.

The players will in 3+ years get 50% of revenue regardless what happens. But they won't get a single dollar back for a canceled season.
Who said anything about not having a 50-50 split?

If the season is canceled this year, the owners sole point of revenue are the season tickets that they sold. If there is no season next year, the owners are now staring at a season where not a single season ticket has been sold, while still having to pay fixed costs. There are teams in the NHL which will not survive that. If there are two seasons canceled, there are teams that will not come back.

The point is that after Bettman cancels the season, the next time that Fehr and the players begin to get any semblance of leverage is when the owners are faced with the possibility of not having any ticket sales. Not to mention the fact that what meager TV contract they have, will now have two seasons on the back end, in which the owners are not getting a dime's worth of revenue from. Not to mention the loss of sponsors.

Yes, the players will then be looking at two seasons of no salaries. But again, they did not hire Fehr simply to repeat 2004. No. Fehr will make the owners stare at the above possibilities before he returns to the table (if this season is canceled).

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11-23-2012, 09:34 AM
  #537
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You keep bringing this up. And it is technically true. But the pressure on the players to not miss two years of wages will be 1000 times more. That is the simple truth behind sports labor negotiations.
If the owners cancel, the players have zero leverage. The scenarios that I outline, will be the only opportunity for them, to have any leverage whatsoever. Simply put, they will get a better deal, once the start of the following season is delayed.

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Old
11-23-2012, 09:51 AM
  #538
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I wish the players would stop supplying the gasoline for the owners to burn the league down.

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Old
11-23-2012, 10:09 AM
  #539
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Originally Posted by CH2 View Post
I don't think either players deserve the shout out. However, I will say that the PA hasn't really made a significant effort toward bargaining.
They definitely do.

Instead of being the immature jackass he is, Del Zotto should be getting involved with charities like some of his teammates. He's too concerned about wearing his two jackets. I have an image of him hitting the clubs at night trying to get laid and failing miserably...instead of you know, learning how to defend in his own zone.

Rupp hasn't shut his mouth since the lockout began. He's a cancer to this process. He's been on NHL radio several times spewing his nonsense. The last time basically saying the fans don't understand the millionaire players' blight.

We are supposed to cheer for these morons when games finally resume?

Its simple. Keep your mouth shut and keep a decent image so the millions of fans around the continent don't feel ire towards you. Let Fehr be the bad guy in fans' eyes. That's why he's there.

Crosby and Toews are also HUGE doosh bags. Giant. Unabashed doosh bags.

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11-23-2012, 10:20 AM
  #540
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The owners are bargaining? Simply reducing demands and making no concession is bargaining? The PA is no group of saints but lets call a spade a spade.
What concessions? There is no current CBA. The PA could have made that argument if they had actually tried to negotiate a deal last season when the NHL asked. As soon as that CBA expired, it's history.

The entire concept of this being a 50/50 partnership between owners and players is BS. The owner's are absorbing all the risk. It's their league. If the union wants to play then make a deal. At this point the main sticking point which has been focused on is that the owners want linkage. The players can dress up a deal anyway they want but they are REFUSING to have their income linked through escrow to actual revenues. This new proposal has their BS clause that their share can't go down after year one.

If the players actually offered true linkage then I am sure the league would be more flexible on ALL player contracting rights with the exception of contract term and front loading.

The players were misguided in trusting Fehr to lead them. He was able to strong arm baseball because their was and is a much greater demand for the sport. Hockey is a niche sport in the USA.

The only ones who are losing in this entire situation are the players and the fans. Ownership didn't attain their wealth from making poor business deals or by owning a hockey team, however the players did by playing a game.

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Old
11-23-2012, 10:34 AM
  #541
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So if the union decertifies, and the NHL pushes this bad boy into courts, could we see the entire foundation of the NHL blow up? Or am I reading Kyper wrong here...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l..._gary_bettman/

Quote:
The purpose of decertifying would be to eliminate Bettman's negotiating partner. Without a functioning PA, it’s the players’ hope that an owners’ lockout would be deemed illegal and instantly lifted. Dissolving the unions also dissolves the salary cap, linkage, escrow, salary arbitration, rookie cap, you name it. The owners could argue decertifying jeopardizes existing contracts. But some owners, such as the Pittsburgh Penguins’ Mario Lemieux or Los Angeles Kings’ Philip Anschutz, might not like the idea of losing Sidney Crosby to the Rangers or Jonathan Quick to the Leafs when hockey finally returns, and the players would obviously argue they have valid contracts that should be honoured.

You can forget the NHL draft as well. Projected top picks Nathan McKinnon and Seth Jones would simply go to the highest bidder. With the exception of unrestricted free agency, everything else would be deemed illegal in the eyes of the courts. When sports deals are negotiated in good faith, it’s called a CBA. When they aren't, it’s called price fixing. Price fixing leads to accusations of antitrust, and antitrust is a word that doesn't make any billionaire sports-club owner feel warm and fuzzy.
Is he saying that all contracts are essentially void, and everyone is a free agent? Because **** that noise. Not to mention I want Sidney Crosby nowhere near the Rangers, ever.

EDIT - My apologies if this has been discussed before. I haven't been following this thread as closely as I should be.

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11-23-2012, 10:56 AM
  #542
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So if the union decertifies, and the NHL pushes this bad boy into courts, could we see the entire foundation of the NHL blow up? Or am I reading Kyper wrong here...



Is he saying that all contracts are essentially void, and everyone is a free agent? Because **** that noise. Not to mention I want Sidney Crosby nowhere near the Rangers, ever.

EDIT - My apologies if this has been discussed before. I haven't been following this thread as closely as I should be.

Are you kidding me? I don't care if his favorite hobby is kicking kittens if he were to score 100 points for the Rangers.

This sounds like something too far fetched to happen.

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11-23-2012, 10:58 AM
  #543
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If the PA actually de-certifies you can kiss any hope of a season goodbye. The main point is to be able to bring antitrust lawsuits against the league which will tie this thing up in court for a looong time.

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11-23-2012, 11:12 AM
  #544
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Can't say I'm very familiar with decertification.

I really don't know whether my thoughts have any validity so I'm willing to learn.

Anyway,Just speculating....

I'm thinking that the league will no longer have a cap?

A)Therefore teams in very small markets can attempt to operate with very low payrolls trying to turn a profit?

B)Therefore would we be looking at a league that's far less competitive to today's league?

C)What would my tix for the uncompetitive teams (far fewer games would interest the casual fan) be worth?

D)At current prices I would be forced to give up the season tix rather than watching a two tiered league? I would rather purchase the top opponets on a game by game basis.

E)Therefore, I'm thinking that the league be paying lower salaries (in total)?

F)does decert really help the players payroll?

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11-23-2012, 11:17 AM
  #545
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What concessions? There is no current CBA. The PA could have made that argument if they had actually tried to negotiate a deal last season when the NHL asked. As soon as that CBA expired, it's history.
.
This notion is such garbage. Show me how this applies in the real world. There is give and take in all sports negotiating. Everything is based off the previous CBA. Of course the previous one matters.

The owners don't just impose terms and force agreements. I can't believe I have to constantly argue the most basic of accepted facts.

And it just shows you how asinine your concept is anyway. If the last CBA is irrelevant, the players can't be judged on their offers relative to the last CBA either.

People can obviously form their own opinions and hate the union. At least base it on realistic terms. Don't be hypocritical.

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Old
11-23-2012, 11:18 AM
  #546
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If the PA actually de-certifies you can kiss any hope of a season goodbye. The main point is to be able to bring antitrust lawsuits against the league which will tie this thing up in court for a looong time.
Decertification only makes sense for the player agents and senior management of the union. (Well, them and any players who are tired of actually playing and are simply hoping to wring as much cash out of their last deals as possible.)

Could it result in a player friendly outcome? Certainly. But it would only come after the resolution of multiple individual lawsuits, played out over years and years (not a few months, not a year, but years and years) with an endgame that would likely see the blowing up of the current league structure, including the dissolution of some, if not all, of the current franchises.

It would be a great outcome for Nathan McKinnon and Seth Jones. For anyone in the league, particularly over the age of, say, 28 who cares about ever playing hockey again (much less hockey on a traditional team in the league as they came to know it while growing up)? Yeaaaaah... not so much.

A guy like Brad Richards could make 3x as much money as he's currently slated to make... presuming the players won their case. Of course, it's also possible that they would settle or that the players would have a partial victory - or even a partial loss. In which case, he wouldn't make as much. He also would have to wait a long time to make that money. Either way, he would likely never skate again in the NHL.

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11-23-2012, 11:23 AM
  #547
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Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
So if the union decertifies, and the NHL pushes this bad boy into courts, could we see the entire foundation of the NHL blow up? Or am I reading Kyper wrong here...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l..._gary_bettman/



Is he saying that all contracts are essentially void, and everyone is a free agent? Because **** that noise. Not to mention I want Sidney Crosby nowhere near the Rangers, ever.

EDIT - My apologies if this has been discussed before. I haven't been following this thread as closely as I should be.
Read the McKenzie piece. It makes the lockout illegal. The players say they are ready to play for their individual contracts and if it is held up in court, the owners have to proceed. The CBA is out, when contracts expire everyone is ufa regardless of age, no draft, no cap, no arbitration. Those things that are fundamental and assumed in every cba (proof that the previous one is relative to the negotiation process, why its the basis for negotiating), are gone.

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11-23-2012, 11:24 AM
  #548
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A good read on decertification.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l..._bettman_fehr/

" Should they decertify and pursue court action the players would certainly be at risk – they wouldn’t be working, for one and the possibility of a cancelled season would become very real– but the owners would have a lot to lose as well.

A key aspect of US labour law would require the owners to pay the players damages worth triple their losses if they were to found to have acted improperly in locking the players out and in their subsequent negotiations. That could mean a potential $5.6-billion windfall for the players, though it would take years of legal battles to get it.

But at its most basic decertifying, or the threat of it, would inject a massive dose of uncertainty in the process as would resorting to the courts. Most importantly the owners control over the outcome would be diminished considerably.

Billionaires hate that."

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11-23-2012, 11:27 AM
  #549
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Read McKenzie before you play out scenarios beyond court rooms and mediation tables. This forces the legal process along. We will never see a non CBA era hockey game. Its not worth the worry or irritation because its not happening.

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11-23-2012, 11:28 AM
  #550
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
This notion is such garbage. Show me how this applies in the real world. There is give and take in all sports negotiating. Everything is based off the previous CBA. Of course the previous one matters.

The owners don't just impose terms and force agreements. I can't believe I have to constantly argue the most basic of accepted facts.

And it just shows you how asinine your concept is anyway. If the last CBA is irrelevant, the players can't be judged on their offers relative to the last CBA either.

People can obviously form their own opinions and hate the union. At least base it on realistic terms. Don't be hypocritical.
I am judging the players on their offer based on the asinine insistence that their income is not directly linked to revenue, not the last CBA. Like I said before, they absorb no risk and want guarenteed revenues in their "partnership". It's ludicrus.

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