HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Winnipeg Jets
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

No More Lockout Blues! - 2012 Lockout Part 2 [UPD: AGREEMENT REACHED!]

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-23-2012, 08:44 AM
  #276
Huffer
Registered User
 
Huffer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,280
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
I miss Claude Noel.

No, really, I truly do miss Claude Noel. I miss his rambling post game diatribes, I miss his great sense of humour, his pre-game enthusiasm and as well his post-game edge when the Jets lose. Some enterprising type like a Lawless needs to grab a long interview with Noel, and preferably add a video portion on the website as well. He doesn't need to break any lockout rules in order to regale us with summer fishing tales and stories about his Nun sisters.

I miss Claude Noel and his talk of free pizzas.

Agreed.

I thought it was great that he was the #1 pick in the Keane charity classic, over all the old NHL guys (Coffey, Lindros, Bourque, etc).

Huffer is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 09:28 AM
  #277
WaveRaven
Registered User
 
WaveRaven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Winnerpeg
Posts: 463
vCash: 50
Claude is my favourite Jet ...... I still want to know what kind of lozenges he's eating !

WaveRaven is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 09:50 AM
  #278
Holden Caulfield
Moderator
Perennial Skeptic
 
Holden Caulfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,864
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
It's complicated, Holden. There is no question that this will make him unpopular with the leaders in the PA, hurt their cause and possibly end his career. But that may be a reason to admire the courage of his convictions. Solidarity for the right cause can be good thing, but can also be a used to intimidate and suppress independent thought. When I look at the control that Fehr seems to have gained over the minds of these kids, it's down right scary.
Hamrlik is acting in his own interests in that he is old and in the last year of his contract. He also happens to be giving sound advice to his brainwashed fellow players, IMHO. For that, he is probably going to take a big hit in the short term, risk being ostracized by his own misguided mates, but may be vindicated in the long term. We'll see.
While what you are saying may be true, I personally disagree with this notion that Fehr has these "helpless kids" (players) brainwashed into believing his propaganda. I do not think he controls the players nearly so much as people think he does. Contrary to popular belief, the players are not stupid. This is their livelihood, I am sure many of them have spent the lockout researching the economics of the situation, listening to the arguments, and generally making up their own minds. Fehr may be the head of the PA, but he is still answerable to his constituents. If the players wanted to get a deal done at any cost, that would be his mandate. He cannot act against player wishes.

Now if there is a minority of players in key positions of the PA blocking any attempt to get a deal done, a minority segment blocking the free discourse WITHIN the PA, then yes I will agree that Hamrlik's comments are justified. But to this point, I don't think this is the case. This is one old man working against the rest of his "union brothers". I will say it's more likely he is a very huge minority within the ranks, not that he wasn't be heard, but that nobody agreed with him, making the public the only place he could air his frustrations. And prove nothing.

It all depends on how you think the PA is working. Are moderate players being suppressed? Or are they simply the minority and although there concerns are being heard, they are simply the minority in a situation where the majority rules? I personally do not believe this stuff about Fehr being the evil overlord ruling over a swarm of brainwashed players. People give much too much credit to Fehr (and Bettman for that matter) IMO, they are but the public faces on large battles with many many battlefronts, IMO.

__________________


Holden Caulfield is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 10:06 AM
  #279
Savardian Spinarama
Grippin' 'n Grinnin'
 
Savardian Spinarama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 129
vCash: 500
This may have been posted elsewhere in which case my apologies. But recommended Donald Fehr reading:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...9ee_story.html

Savardian Spinarama is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 10:53 AM
  #280
Guerzy
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Guerzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,223
vCash: 50
I am beginning to believe that the NHLPA very well may decertify. I don't doubt for a second right now that the NHLPA won't just use this as a bargaining threat/tactic, but they very well may do it after seeing it done in the NFL and NBA.

Good read here on some of the ins and outs of the process.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l..._bettman_fehr/

Guerzy is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 11:08 AM
  #281
ps241
The Danish Dash!
 
ps241's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 10,902
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Savardian Spinarama View Post
This may have been posted elsewhere in which case my apologies. But recommended Donald Fehr reading:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...9ee_story.html
That is a great read and a very well written story. I learned allot reading that thanks SS.

ps241 is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 11:22 AM
  #282
Guerzy
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Guerzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,223
vCash: 50
For those interested, Bill Daly is coming up on Sportsnet The fan 590 Hockeycentral at Noon. And Steve Fehr will be on at 12:40.

http://player.rogersradio.ca/cjcl/on_air

Guerzy is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 12:40 PM
  #283
Grind
Stomacheache AllStar
 
Grind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 4,139
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
While what you are saying may be true, I personally disagree with this notion that Fehr has these "helpless kids" (players) brainwashed into believing his propaganda. I do not think he controls the players nearly so much as people think he does. Contrary to popular belief, the players are not stupid. This is their livelihood, I am sure many of them have spent the lockout researching the economics of the situation, listening to the arguments, and generally making up their own minds. Fehr may be the head of the PA, but he is still answerable to his constituents. If the players wanted to get a deal done at any cost, that would be his mandate. He cannot act against player wishes.

Now if there is a minority of players in key positions of the PA blocking any attempt to get a deal done, a minority segment blocking the free discourse WITHIN the PA, then yes I will agree that Hamrlik's comments are justified. But to this point, I don't think this is the case. This is one old man working against the rest of his "union brothers". I will say it's more likely he is a very huge minority within the ranks, not that he wasn't be heard, but that nobody agreed with him, making the public the only place he could air his frustrations. And prove nothing.

It all depends on how you think the PA is working. Are moderate players being suppressed? Or are they simply the minority and although there concerns are being heard, they are simply the minority in a situation where the majority rules? I personally do not believe this stuff about Fehr being the evil overlord ruling over a swarm of brainwashed players. People give much too much credit to Fehr (and Bettman for that matter) IMO, they are but the public faces on large battles with many many battlefronts, IMO.
I think the issue is that the way their views have been leaked to the media (as in how we the general public have been able to interpret their proposals) is that we believe Fehr has "brainwashed" these "kids" because we find their stance so unbelievable and unrealistic that we hope[ Fehr has them brainwashed, because otherwise it means the players that we (generally) respect, are actually at fault for their perceived unreasonableness, and a lot of us don't want that to be true.

You hear "fehr has them brainwashed, blame fehr, etc etc etc" because we don't want to say "hey, my favorite player is being an unreasonable ********, who doesn't understand that the deal they had was way to good to be true and that his expectation is completely out of whack with reality." because that would mean my favorite player is a bad guy and i'd have to actually resent him. No I would much rather (knowingly) misdirect my anger towards Fehr.

Its not that we actually think Fehr is a conspiring evil madman, obviously he's accountable to his employers just like bettman is, it's just the hating fehr allows us to save our hero's from ourselves.

Grind is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 12:42 PM
  #284
Savardian Spinarama
Grippin' 'n Grinnin'
 
Savardian Spinarama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 129
vCash: 500
If I wasn't so emotionally invested in this and so mad about where this is all going, I'd actually say the whole situation is kind of fascinating. But I can't.


Last edited by Savardian Spinarama: 11-23-2012 at 12:48 PM.
Savardian Spinarama is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 12:45 PM
  #285
Savardian Spinarama
Grippin' 'n Grinnin'
 
Savardian Spinarama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 129
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
That is a great read and a very well written story. I learned allot reading that thanks SS.
You're welcome, I'd find the whole process fascinating if I wasn't so angry.

Edit: Sorry kind of a double post.

Savardian Spinarama is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 01:11 PM
  #286
ICdave
HFB Partner
 
ICdave's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,840
vCash: 500
Just spoke with Ladd and Ryan Reaves. Not surprisingly Ladd was quite vocal about Hamrlik. Also very candid about decertification.

To listen to the audio click here.

ICdave is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 01:42 PM
  #287
Grind
Stomacheache AllStar
 
Grind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 4,139
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WpgMikos View Post
Just spoke with Ladd and Ryan Reaves. Not surprisingly Ladd was quite vocal about Hamrlik. Also very candid about decertification.

To listen to the audio click here.
I like Ladd, and I definitly appreciate his candor and willingness to speak, he's always been open to it and that's something that deserves respect and acknowledgment.

That being said, It' really frustrating to hear the NHLPA's side talk about how the league won't move. There's clearly a massive sense of entitlement to what was under the old agreement. Same old same old.

Thanks for the chat Ladd but its just more of the same.

Grind is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 01:46 PM
  #288
Yukon Joe
Registered User
 
Yukon Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: YWG -> YXY -> YEG
Posts: 1,430
vCash: 624
Quote:
Originally Posted by Savardian Spinarama View Post
If I wasn't so emotionally invested in this and so mad about where this is all going, I'd actually say the whole situation is kind of fascinating. But I can't.
I dunno. I feel like being a Jets fan has kind of warped my sensibilities about this.

For many years being a Jets fan meant that I was following the business of hockey much more than I was the on-ice product. I was watching what was going on in Glendale most specifically, but also for developments in Atlanta, in Hamilton and Quebec.

So I find the whole CBA negotiations quite interesting.

As for decertification...

Talk about playing russian roulette. Now I'm not a labour lawyer, but I am a litigator, and I've both negotiated a lot of settlements, and fought a lot of court cases. When you go to court you lose control over what the ultimate outcome is going to be. When you negotiate you control the outcome.

Both sides have a lot to lose, and a lot to gain, with decertification and subsequent anti-trust litigation. The players might get a ruling that the 30 teams are independent businesses, and any restraint of trade - be it the draft, salary caps or anything else, are illegal.

But maybe they lose. NHL is found to be one business, competing with other sports leagues. With no union the league then gets carte blanche to set any rules it wants.

I'd have to search. I don't think NBA or NFL either got final decisions on these points, but the results were leading against the NFLPA.

Yukon Joe is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 01:56 PM
  #289
buggs
Registered User
 
buggs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: flatlands
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,825
vCash: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Savardian Spinarama View Post
This may have been posted elsewhere in which case my apologies. But recommended Donald Fehr reading:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...9ee_story.html
I read it before when it was posted in the main lockout thread.

While I completely agree that Fehr should not be underestimated and that he is doing what the PA union is telling him, he is also advising them and based on his preceding reputation, will have a substantial influence.

Unlike the author of that article, I'm not accepting the notion of 182 million apart over five years. That's not quite true because it is speculating on increased revenue in the future, something that isn't at all guaranteed, especially the longer the lockout carries on. Of course there'll be minimal impact in your Winnipeg/Toronto/Rangers markets so they'll remain stable, but not so in many of the more dubious markets that rely upon walk-up ticket sales. They are losing people right now and that will only worsen. I don't think we'll see the backlash that MLB saw simply because in a significant proportion of hockey markets hockey just doesn't matter that much. I've never been a believer in the "annual attendance figures" that the NHL posts because it simply doesn't jive with what you see on highlights or when watching games - many of the seats are indeed empty.

While I've cast my lot with the owners' side, solely because I think it helps TNSE going forward, I also don't think the NHL is being truly genuine with the players. There's room to move and I'm afraid that much as I don't understand the players point of view (exactly what leverage do you have again?) in thinking they're dictating the terms in this debate, I'm starting to wonder what the heck the ownership group with Bettman are thinking as well. Obviously it's 50-50. Now. But beyond that why isn't there traction with respect to contracting? A little give and take, as is normal in a negotiation.

As for Fehr's "we've moved far more than halfway", sure, based on your own definitions. But are they the one's that matter to the league? I would say no. He can be as serious as he wants to be about an 'inflection point' but it doesn't mean he'll win ultimately. Hamrlik, right or wrong, is the first openly obvious showing of a crack. It's likely not just Hamrlik but most guys in his situation. Based on the last lockout, somewhere in the neighbourhood of 200 odd players never played again. If we assume the PA was about 700 members at that time then you're looking at 25%+ of the players never collecting another pay-cheque from the NHL in their lifetime. That's a quarter of the PA membership losing a substantial amount of their lifetime income because even if they start working after their done, odds are they're starting around $50K per year in most instances (some higher, some lower) or less than 10% of the minimum NHL salary. That's got to be scary to face.

That doesn't happen in baseball really to the same extent. The decline in baseball is slower and careers are somewhat longer. Plus you can slide into DH or play 1st base to extend a career for some of the players. I don't have the exact figures but hockey isn't quite the same as baseball so I think there are significant differences in the leverage that a PA can wield, whether it's fair or not to the players.

Ultimately I don't think the players, as a group, or the owners really care what the fans think right now. They know we're pissed off and that they're losing market share but I think they both feel that true hockey fans will be back regardless. That places all the leverage in the owners hands in my opinion. Players don't sign the deal? Fine, don't play, don't get paid. Many will play elsewhere while they can, some 150+ overseas but that leaves 550 not collecting money unless they're on IR and that'll run out at some point too. Will the NHL lockout players for two years? Maybe. I sure hope not but if they do what proportion of the PA never plays again? 50% (350 players)? That's one hell of a price to pay for pride.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the owners are crapping bricks right now at the prospect of losing games. Maybe Fehr wins for the PA. I'm confident there are teams losing money but I'm not sure how many or how dire the circumstances are. When this lockout ends will tell the tale of the tape and who really had the leverage.

In my remarkably simplistic view of all this the league should go with the PA's offer on percentages but make any increases contingent on actual revenues after the fact - if the players really believe in perpetually increasing revenue they can't say no; make some changes to the contract structuring (give and take on both sides) and then lower the cap and the floor if it can be done with that framework. Or make the difference between the cap and the floor greater so teams aren't paying marginal players $4 mill a year to make the floor. Players win on maintaining something above 50-50 for a while, league wins on getting to 50-50 in time and some contract issues and 'lowering' the floor eliminates overpaying the marginal guys on the teams and probably results in lowering the average salary for players in the end which is a win for the league, loss for players. And make the CBA8-10 years in length, please.

If that was tl;dr, sorry about that.

buggs is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 02:34 PM
  #290
Guerzy
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Guerzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,223
vCash: 50
Think before you tweet, or... re-tweet...

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...lland-obliges/


Guerzy is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 02:59 PM
  #291
Grind
Stomacheache AllStar
 
Grind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 4,139
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
Think before you tweet, or... re-tweet...

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...lland-obliges/

wheeeeeew someones going to regret that in a big way in the near future.

Grind is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 03:43 PM
  #292
scelaton
Registered User
 
scelaton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 968
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
While what you are saying may be true, I personally disagree with this notion that Fehr has these "helpless kids" (players) brainwashed into believing his propaganda. I do not think he controls the players nearly so much as people think he does. Contrary to popular belief, the players are not stupid. This is their livelihood, I am sure many of them have spent the lockout researching the economics of the situation, listening to the arguments, and generally making up their own minds. Fehr may be the head of the PA, but he is still answerable to his constituents. If the players wanted to get a deal done at any cost, that would be his mandate. He cannot act against player wishes.

Now if there is a minority of players in key positions of the PA blocking any attempt to get a deal done, a minority segment blocking the free discourse WITHIN the PA, then yes I will agree that Hamrlik's comments are justified. But to this point, I don't think this is the case. This is one old man working against the rest of his "union brothers". I will say it's more likely he is a very huge minority within the ranks, not that he wasn't be heard, but that nobody agreed with him, making the public the only place he could air his frustrations. And prove nothing.

It all depends on how you think the PA is working. Are moderate players being suppressed? Or are they simply the minority and although there concerns are being heard, they are simply the minority in a situation where the majority rules? I personally do not believe this stuff about Fehr being the evil overlord ruling over a swarm of brainwashed players. People give much too much credit to Fehr (and Bettman for that matter) IMO, they are but the public faces on large battles with many many battlefronts, IMO.
WARNING: This is a rant and I have said most of it before. You may wish to ignore me.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and there's no point in having these boards if we can't have a healthy debate. But let me clarify where I'm coming from re my view that the players are 'brainwashed'.
1)I don't believe they are all stupid, but there is a big gap in education and intellectual credentials between them and Fehr. That creates a power (influence) gap.
2)They are mostly very young, sheltered and inexperienced, having played hockey for thousands of hours, while the rest of us were exposed to ROL (rest of life) . All the while, they have been told how special they are. This creates a distorted sense of entitlement.
3)They are in THE most vulnerable demographic to follow orders and fight for a flawed cause, ignoring both the other side's position and the risks to themselves. It is no wonder they recruit young men for armies, gangs and other misguided causes. This vulnerability creates an enormous (fiduciary) responsibility on the part of their leadership to advise them properly.
4)Throw in a charismatic leader, who could whip up the perception of injustice in his sleep, and you have all the ingredients for an unnecessary war. I have personally seen this happen with much more sophisticated groups than the PA and history is rife with examples.
5)I wouldn't be on this rant if it weren't for the fact that I have examined this countless times and, from and economic and career satisfaction perspective, this stance is clearly a losing proposition for the players even if you're on their side.
6)Anyone who thinks this is an issue of principle or right vs wrong is nuts. This is business, pure and simple. and the PA is losing the business case so badly that it's unjustifiable to stay silent. That, in a nutshell, is all Hamrlik is saying.
7)If Hainsey, Crosby et al don't care about the money, but want to fight for justice, they can turn on CNN. There are actually a lot of bad situations in the world that could use their help. The lockout isn't one of them.

scelaton is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 04:16 PM
  #293
Jetsfan204*
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 131
vCash: 500
Quote:
2)They are mostly very young, sheltered and inexperienced, having played hockey for thousands of hours, while the rest of us were exposed to ROL (rest of life) . All the while, they have been told how special they are. This creates a distorted sense of entitlement.
LOL. So your argument is that the players are young and stupid because they play too much hockey? Last I checked hockey was still real life... The PA members are well informed and can make their own judgements, that is their right as NHLPA members

Quote:
Anyone who thinks this is an issue of principle or right vs wrong is nuts. This is business, pure and simple. and the PA is losing the business case so badly that it's unjustifiable to stay silent. That, in a nutshell, is all Hamrlik is saying.
Unjustifiable to an old man who doesn't give a **** about the PA and just wants his paycheck yes. When asked if it was selfish all he said was "I may be". I mean, it doesn't get any clearer than that.

Jetsfan204* is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 04:45 PM
  #294
broinwhyteridge
bro license revoked!
 
broinwhyteridge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,208
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
WARNING: This is a rant and I have said most of it before. You may wish to ignore me.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and there's no point in having these boards if we can't have a healthy debate. But let me clarify where I'm coming from re my view that the players are 'brainwashed'.
1)I don't believe they are all stupid, but there is a big gap in education and intellectual credentials between them and Fehr. That creates a power (influence) gap.
2)They are mostly very young, sheltered and inexperienced, having played hockey for thousands of hours, while the rest of us were exposed to ROL (rest of life) . All the while, they have been told how special they are. This creates a distorted sense of entitlement.
3)They are in THE most vulnerable demographic to follow orders and fight for a flawed cause, ignoring both the other side's position and the risks to themselves. It is no wonder they recruit young men for armies, gangs and other misguided causes. This vulnerability creates an enormous (fiduciary) responsibility on the part of their leadership to advise them properly.
4)Throw in a charismatic leader, who could whip up the perception of injustice in his sleep, and you have all the ingredients for an unnecessary war. I have personally seen this happen with much more sophisticated groups than the PA and history is rife with examples.
5)I wouldn't be on this rant if it weren't for the fact that I have examined this countless times and, from and economic and career satisfaction perspective, this stance is clearly a losing proposition for the players even if you're on their side.
6)Anyone who thinks this is an issue of principle or right vs wrong is nuts. This is business, pure and simple. and the PA is losing the business case so badly that it's unjustifiable to stay silent. That, in a nutshell, is all Hamrlik is saying.
7)If Hainsey, Crosby et al don't care about the money, but want to fight for justice, they can turn on CNN. There are actually a lot of bad situations in the world that could use their help. The lockout isn't one of them.
Excellent 7 points sir.

broinwhyteridge is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 06:37 PM
  #295
KingBogo
Admitted Homer
 
KingBogo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 4,632
vCash: 1345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukon Joe View Post
I dunno. I feel like being a Jets fan has kind of warped my sensibilities about this.

For many years being a Jets fan meant that I was following the business of hockey much more than I was the on-ice product. I was watching what was going on in Glendale most specifically, but also for developments in Atlanta, in Hamilton and Quebec.

So I find the whole CBA negotiations quite interesting.

As for decertification...

Talk about playing russian roulette. Now I'm not a labour lawyer, but I am a litigator, and I've both negotiated a lot of settlements, and fought a lot of court cases. When you go to court you lose control over what the ultimate outcome is going to be. When you negotiate you control the outcome.

Both sides have a lot to lose, and a lot to gain, with decertification and subsequent anti-trust litigation. The players might get a ruling that the 30 teams are independent businesses, and any restraint of trade - be it the draft, salary caps or anything else, are illegal.

But maybe they lose. NHL is found to be one business, competing with other sports leagues. With no union the league then gets carte blanche to set any rules it wants.

I'd have to search. I don't think NBA or NFL either got final decisions on these points, but the results were leading against the NFLPA.
Yukon Joe I hope you continue to post, as a lawyer IMO you are now the resident expert on most things related to the CBA. My main question at this point is what happens to current contracts if the NHLPA sucessfully decertifies? Also what is the process of decertification including appeals all the way to who has the final say and what type of time period are we looking at? Thanks.

KingBogo is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 06:42 PM
  #296
Jet
Moderator
Drop the danged puck
 
Jet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: New Glasgow
Country: Scotland
Posts: 17,269
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
Dislike it immensely. You keep comments like that behind closed doors with your fellow PA members. It does nothing but hurt the PA by saying something like that, which does not help anybody. The owners might feel they can press the advantage and the bulk of the PA becomes defensive. Could prolong the lockout.

Not too mention, for no reason at all you create a rift between yourself and your fellow players. It's fine if he is telling the other players and the PA that, he has a right to his views, but to publicly speak out against your fellow players, many people will not want to play with him now. Even the moderates will not want to have signs of discord to be aired in public hurting their own side. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if that is the death knell of his NHL career.
I see where you are coming from but I admire the fact that he isn't getting muzzled like the rest of the PA sheep. He spoke his mind instead of marching into oblivion at the hands of a madman.

Big props to Roman.

__________________
The Olympic Line
Jet is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 06:47 PM
  #297
Jet
Moderator
Drop the danged puck
 
Jet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: New Glasgow
Country: Scotland
Posts: 17,269
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
WARNING: This is a rant and I have said most of it before. You may wish to ignore me.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and there's no point in having these boards if we can't have a healthy debate. But let me clarify where I'm coming from re my view that the players are 'brainwashed'.
1)I don't believe they are all stupid, but there is a big gap in education and intellectual credentials between them and Fehr. That creates a power (influence) gap.
2)They are mostly very young, sheltered and inexperienced, having played hockey for thousands of hours, while the rest of us were exposed to ROL (rest of life) . All the while, they have been told how special they are. This creates a distorted sense of entitlement.
3)They are in THE most vulnerable demographic to follow orders and fight for a flawed cause, ignoring both the other side's position and the risks to themselves. It is no wonder they recruit young men for armies, gangs and other misguided causes. This vulnerability creates an enormous (fiduciary) responsibility on the part of their leadership to advise them properly.
4)Throw in a charismatic leader, who could whip up the perception of injustice in his sleep, and you have all the ingredients for an unnecessary war. I have personally seen this happen with much more sophisticated groups than the PA and history is rife with examples.
5)I wouldn't be on this rant if it weren't for the fact that I have examined this countless times and, from and economic and career satisfaction perspective, this stance is clearly a losing proposition for the players even if you're on their side.
6)Anyone who thinks this is an issue of principle or right vs wrong is nuts. This is business, pure and simple. and the PA is losing the business case so badly that it's unjustifiable to stay silent. That, in a nutshell, is all Hamrlik is saying.
7)If Hainsey, Crosby et al don't care about the money, but want to fight for justice, they can turn on CNN. There are actually a lot of bad situations in the world that could use their help. The lockout isn't one of them.
:slowclap:

Jet is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 06:51 PM
  #298
Jet
Moderator
Drop the danged puck
 
Jet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: New Glasgow
Country: Scotland
Posts: 17,269
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
Yukon Joe I hope you continue to post, as a lawyer IMO you are now the resident expert on most things related to the CBA. My main question at this point is what happens to current contracts if the NHLPA sucessfully decertifies? Also what is the process of decertification including appeals all the way to who has the final say and what type of time period are we looking at? Thanks.
I know you asked Yukon Joe about this but to the best of my knowledge, decertification will be an extremely long and laborious prospect considering all of the different jurisdictions, laws and the fact that the US Dept. of Labor is a gigantic bureaucratic machine.

It could take 3 years for them to decertify. That would mean ruin for players and league alike. At the end, all players would have contracts canceled and become UFA's.

In a nutshell, it's not going to happen, and both sides know it. It's just more childish gamesmanship as we get closer to the edge.

Jet is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 07:22 PM
  #299
KingBogo
Admitted Homer
 
KingBogo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 4,632
vCash: 1345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukon Joe View Post
I dunno. I feel like being a Jets fan has kind of warped my sensibilities about this.

For many years being a Jets fan meant that I was following the business of hockey much more than I was the on-ice product. I was watching what was going on in Glendale most specifically, but also for developments in Atlanta, in Hamilton and Quebec.

So I find the whole CBA negotiations quite interesting.

As for decertification...

Talk about playing russian roulette. Now I'm not a labour lawyer, but I am a litigator, and I've both negotiated a lot of settlements, and fought a lot of court cases. When you go to court you lose control over what the ultimate outcome is going to be. When you negotiate you control the outcome.

Both sides have a lot to lose, and a lot to gain, with decertification and subsequent anti-trust litigation. The players might get a ruling that the 30 teams are independent businesses, and any restraint of trade - be it the draft, salary caps or anything else, are illegal.

But maybe they lose. NHL is found to be one business, competing with other sports leagues. With no union the league then gets carte blanche to set any rules it wants.

I'd have to search. I don't think NBA or NFL either got final decisions on these points, but the results were leading against the NFLPA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet View Post
I know you asked Yukon Joe about this but to the best of my knowledge, decertification will be an extremely long and laborious prospect considering all of the different jurisdictions, laws and the fact that the US Dept. of Labor is a gigantic bureaucratic machine.

It could take 3 years for them to decertify. That would mean ruin for players and league alike. At the end, all players would have contracts canceled and become UFA's.

In a nutshell, it's not going to happen, and both sides know it. It's just more childish gamesmanship as we get closer to the edge.
Thanks Jet. I'm trying to gather info like a lot of others out there. I have quite a lot experience in labour negotiations and have been on the bargaining committee a few times in collective bargaining, but in the real world decertifying without another union already in place just puts you at the mercy of the owners. It's akin to using pixi dust or covering your ears and wishing you were in Kansas, in most real world labour struggles (with the sole exception of an inept or corrupt union which wouldn't apply here).

KingBogo is offline  
Old
11-23-2012, 07:40 PM
  #300
Gump Hasek
Spleen Merchant
 
Gump Hasek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: 222 Tudor Terrace
Posts: 7,288
vCash: 1250
Enstrom signs with Swedish second division team Orebro Vipers..
http://www.winnipegsun.com/2012/11/2...h-swedish-team

Gump Hasek is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:35 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.