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Mirtle: NHLPA’s hard-liners hint at decertification after latest offer rejected

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Old
11-23-2012, 07:05 AM
  #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
However the Canadian federal government is decidedly pro capital and anti labour, and over the last few years have tended to be interventionist when it comes to labour disputes.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/parlinfo/compi...spx?Language=E

Maybe that's why the NHLPA saw it necessary to make the unusual move of making a presentation to Canada's parliment.
More like the feds are "pro not having a lot of people really pissed off." It will be more willing to legislate back to work if some sort of transportation is being disrupted or mail delivery is stopped.

In any event, the federal government doesn't have anything to do with whether decertification would work for the NHL b/c the issue would be decided by courts at the provincial level.

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11-23-2012, 10:03 AM
  #277
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"As one of the NBA’s most successful player agents, Bill Duffy has his handful representing a full roster of clients, including the Los Angeles Lakers Steve Nash.

But that doesn’t mean he hasn’t been paying attention to the NHL lockout, now in its 10th week. He has, and he has a strong opinion about what the players should do next.

“They should decertify, absolutely,” said Duffy while taking a break from his Thanksgiving dinner. “They should have done it three months ago.”



http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l..._bettman_fehr/

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11-23-2012, 10:07 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
In the end I feel any kind of arms race is going to have the players come out as losers. They'd be better off to try to find bridge builders and try to grow the popularity of the league so it makes less sense for any side to have work stoppage. I was naive to think NHL had gotten to that stage but then Kelly was booted and Fehr vs Bettman was always going to be what we're currently seeing.
I'll agree with you that most likely it becomes a negotiating tactic even if they get past the point of voting on it and actually begin the process of decertifying. If they did actually decertify and remove all the league restrictions on salary's I think it could be a benefit for the players. The owners even with all the restrictions have shown their inability to control their own spending if they see a chance at making their team slightly better I can only imagine what will happen in a free for all system of no draft no cap. I'm sure some team will eventually be offering contracts to 15 year old phenoms to prepare for the future. Most likely it will hurt washed up guys or guys who havent shown enough after a few years but the players as a whole will be doing very well and most likely from a very young age.

However none of that happens over night. The players would have to win several lawsuits and we all know that lawsuits take time. The biggest downside I see to decertification is that it could eat up several years out of many of these players careers before the thing is settled.

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11-23-2012, 10:58 AM
  #279
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Oldfield: Why NHLPA decertification is a bad idea

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/...-oldfield.html

But the more practical problem is the time it would take to accomplish anything meaningful.

The U.S. National Labor Relations Board is a ponderous bureaucracy that can take years to render a ruling. We can't be sure what role various Canadian provincial labour boards may play, but they too are not known for lightning-quick decisions.

Even if those labour board issues are resolved, most of the outstanding issues would wind up before the courts. They would start in various state and provincial courts, move through the appeals process, and perhaps even end up in the U.S. and Canadian Supreme Courts. Additionally, those rulings may not give any immediate relief to a large group of players. We're talking years here, not weeks or months.

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11-23-2012, 11:19 AM
  #280
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Clearly neither side is going to budge. Both the NFL and NBA had a signed CBA within 2 weeks of decertifying so the PA should do this ASAP.

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11-23-2012, 11:25 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by syc View Post
Clearly neither side is going to budge. Both the NFL and NBA had a signed CBA within 2 weeks of decertifying so the PA should do this ASAP.
Funny thing about the other leagues is that one could say the players lost with those new CBAs.

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11-23-2012, 11:28 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Halibut View Post
I'll agree with you that most likely it becomes a negotiating tactic even if they get past the point of voting on it and actually begin the process of decertifying. If they did actually decertify and remove all the league restrictions on salary's I think it could be a benefit for the players. The owners even with all the restrictions have shown their inability to control their own spending if they see a chance at making their team slightly better I can only imagine what will happen in a free for all system of no draft no cap. I'm sure some team will eventually be offering contracts to 15 year old phenoms to prepare for the future. Most likely it will hurt washed up guys or guys who havent shown enough after a few years but the players as a whole will be doing very well and most likely from a very young age.

However none of that happens over night. The players would have to win several lawsuits and we all know that lawsuits take time. The biggest downside I see to decertification is that it could eat up several years out of many of these players careers before the thing is settled.
Well another downside is that it may cause several franchises to fall off the map and leave the league, that would leave players without jobs in the present or the future. Not sure how that would help future players if they follow through with something that potentially takes jobs away from those players.

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11-23-2012, 11:29 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by syc View Post
Clearly neither side is going to budge. Both the NFL and NBA had a signed CBA within 2 weeks of decertifying so the PA should do this ASAP.
Even as an admittedly risk-averse person myself, if this action means getting our hockey back quickly, then so be it.

That - and well - I don't have any skin these arguments so I'm (relatively) emotionally unattached (compared to certain posters) from this whole situation.

If (hypothetically) the players feel like their backs are against the wall and if (hypothetically) Bettman truly is as uncompromising a bargaining partner as the NHLPA, then by all means bring out the nukes for the sake of fairness.

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11-23-2012, 11:31 AM
  #284
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Well another downside is that it may cause several franchises to fall off the map and leave the league, that would leave players without jobs in the present or the future. Not sure how that would help future players if they follow through with something that potentially takes jobs away from those players.
To be fair, the only players that will be losing jobs are the fringe NHLers / min. wagers. It likely won't materially affect the stars.

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11-23-2012, 11:53 AM
  #285
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Sportnet today:

Bill Daly is not scared of decertification.

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11-23-2012, 11:53 AM
  #286
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Originally Posted by syc View Post
Clearly neither side is going to budge. Both the NFL and NBA had a signed CBA within 2 weeks of decertifying so the PA should do this ASAP.
The NFL CBA was several months after the decertification vote I believe. Not what the players want.

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11-23-2012, 11:54 AM
  #287
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
The NFL CBA was several months after the decertification vote I believe. Not what the players want.
Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy
1 year ago today we were taking timing of NBPA disclaimer & antitrust Armageddon destroying the season. Tentative deal was reached next day.

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11-23-2012, 12:00 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
Gabe Feldman ‏@SportsLawGuy
1 year ago today we were taking timing of NBPA disclaimer & antitrust Armageddon destroying the season. Tentative deal was reached next day.
That is the NBA, not the NFL.

Decertification, March 11 : http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shu...?urn=nfl,wp131

Agreement, July 25 : http://content.usatoday.com/communit...1#.UK-322fe_Dc


4.5 Months ........

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11-23-2012, 12:05 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Oldfield: Why NHLPA decertification is a bad idea

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/...-oldfield.html

But the more practical problem is the time it would take to accomplish anything meaningful.

The U.S. National Labor Relations Board is a ponderous bureaucracy that can take years to render a ruling. We can't be sure what role various Canadian provincial labour boards may play, but they too are not known for lightning-quick decisions.

Even if those labour board issues are resolved, most of the outstanding issues would wind up before the courts. They would start in various state and provincial courts, move through the appeals process, and perhaps even end up in the U.S. and Canadian Supreme Courts. Additionally, those rulings may not give any immediate relief to a large group of players. We're talking years here, not weeks or months.
This isn't the right way to look at it. The PA wouldn't be decerting to gain advantage in this particular negotiation (the season's dead whatever they do, other than capitulate); they'd be decerting to institute a free market system that would be better for them than the union/CBA/artificial/price fixing system. There's nothing they need from the courts that they can't wait for.

The next issue in the pipeline if they do decert isn't really the validity of the lockout; it's the validity of their existing contracts. The league may try to say they aren't valid but if they do so in concert, they risk massive treble antitrust damages for something they may not prevail on anyway.

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11-23-2012, 12:09 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
There's nothing they need from the courts that they can't wait for.
I think that is incorrect. your next point may be required to be ruled on first.

Quote:

The next issue in the pipeline if they do decert isn't really the validity of the lockout; it's the validity of their existing contracts. The league may try to say they aren't valid but if they do so in concert, they risk massive antitrust damages for something they may not prevail on anyway.

Why not do it in concert. Every player contract as it pertains to the SPC, is exactly the same. They can claim any contract subject to it is null and void, regardless of how many there are, it would not have to be on a case by case basis.

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11-23-2012, 12:15 PM
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
That is the NBA, not the NFL.

Decertification, March 11 : http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shu...?urn=nfl,wp131

Agreement, July 25 : http://content.usatoday.com/communit...1#.UK-322fe_Dc


4.5 Months ........
Unlike the NHLPA and NBPA, the NFLPA had additional hoops to jump to make their decertification process effective:

"As noted above, the NFLPA’s decision to immediately disclaim interest upon the
expiration of their CBA in 2011 was unusual due to the provision in the agreement forcing the players to either dissolve their union prior to the expiration of the CBA, or else wait at least six months to file an antitrust suit against the league
. See supra note 84 and accompanying text. Barring a similar provision in a future CBA, players are unlikely to face the same pressure to dissolve their union before the CBA expires".


http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...7&download=yes

The NFL could seek a settlement all summer with little consequences.


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11-23-2012, 12:15 PM
  #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
That is the NBA, not the NFL.

Decertification, March 11 : http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shu...?urn=nfl,wp131

Agreement, July 25 : http://content.usatoday.com/communit...1#.UK-322fe_Dc


4.5 Months ........
...during which time they weren't missing any games. If they were missing games i don't think you would have seen such a long delay.

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11-23-2012, 12:18 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
I think that is incorrect. your next point may be required to be ruled on first.




Why not do it in concert. Every player contract as it pertains to the SPC, is exactly the same. They can claim any contract subject to it is null and void, regardless of how many there are, it would not have to be on a case by case basis.
Because if you do it in concert, it's an antitrust violation subjecting you to treble damages. Once the union goes away, the teams can't act in unison (beyond setting rules and maybe things like negotiating TV deals). Even the threat of treble damages is a deterrent, because the teams wouldn't even want to risk them even for things that a court might eventually say are valid.

Does anyone think if the market frees up and the union goes away, the New York Rangers or Toronto Maple Leafs would close their businesses rather than deal with the new reality?

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11-23-2012, 12:27 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
This isn't the right way to look at it. The PA wouldn't be decerting to gain advantage in this particular negotiation (the season's dead whatever they do, other than capitulate); they'd be decerting to institute a free market system that would be better for them than the union/CBA/artificial/price fixing system. There's nothing they need from the courts that they can't wait for.

The next issue in the pipeline if they do decert isn't really the validity of the lockout; it's the validity of their existing contracts. The league may try to say they aren't valid but if they do so in concert, they risk massive treble antitrust damages for something they may not prevail on anyway.
Actually there are also drawbacks to decertifying. Owners can walk away from current contracts, players have no pension, more than a handful of franchises folding under the financial burdens of the wild and wooly world decertification could lead to. That of course would led to less NHLPA members having jobs, etc. Mike Johnson on TSN laid out a brief summary of why this isn't all roses for the players.

This is assuming of course they even succeed going that route. The NFLPA only won the 1st judgement when they decertified. Most folks don't seem to remember that the NFL came back and won the next two cases by getting a stay then an extended stay. The NFL got the judge to agree that decertification was only a negotiating technique and the PA wasn't really serious about disbanding. Earlier this year the judge wrote up his decision and you can bet the NHL has it as a basis for a counter to decertification.


At the end of the day I'm amazed any 3rd/4th liner, bottom pairing dman, older player or depth NHLer would go along with this NHLPA strategy. If the fight goes that route they are the ones to suffer not the stars. Which is who this fight has always been about anyway. They've done a masterful job selling the little guys that its their fight as well.


Last edited by joshjull: 11-23-2012 at 12:32 PM.
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11-23-2012, 12:28 PM
  #295
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Daly today

If the players vote to decertify their union it would "likely lead to the end of the season."

http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/i...70-daly-speaks

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11-23-2012, 12:36 PM
  #296
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Regarding the existing players contracts... Usually when a CBA ends and isn't replaced (in all industries), existing contracts stay valid. In one of the NBA lockout legal procedures, the NBA argued that the references to an existing CBA were so important that the SPC became invalid. It was characterized as being a "novel'' legal approach (there was no judgment on the question) and I think the NHL would be fighting an uphill battle in Court on this issue.

Of note, the NBA didn't start behaving as SPC were invalid, they asked the Court their opinion first (the Court never came around to make a declaratory judgment on the question).

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11-23-2012, 12:38 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Actually there are also drawbacks to decertifying. Owners can walk away from current contracts, players have no pension, more than a handful of franchises folding under the financial burdens of the wild and wooly world decertification could lead to. That of course would led to less NHLPA members having jobs, etc. Mike Johnson on TSN laid out a brief summary of why this isn't all roses for the players.

This is assuming of course they even succeed going that route. The NFLPA only won the 1st judgement when they decertified. Most folks don't seem to remember that the NFL came back and won the next two cases by getting a stay then an extended stay. The NFL got the judge to agree that decertification was only a negotiating technique and the PA wasn't really serious about disbanding. Earlier this year the judge wrote up his decision and you can bet the NHL has it as a basis for a counter to decertification.


At the end of the day I'm amazed any 3rd/4th liner, bottom pairing dman, older player or depth NHLer would go along with this NHLPA strategy. If the fight goes that route they are the ones to suffer not the stars. Which is who this fight has always been about anyway. They've done a masterful job selling the little guys that its their fight as well.
No...the NHL no longer has the obligation to contribute to the pension on a go-forward basis.

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11-23-2012, 12:42 PM
  #298
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Seems pointless to having any rule on the matter then. You can show up to the room each day, say the proposal is still the same and sit and chat.
Again, I'm not an expert in this, but I think you would have to look at what implications ruling otherwise would be. It would basically mean no side could ever actually give out their best offer that they will accept, especially early on, if future unwillingness to budge from that best offer can be deemed to be 'in bad faith'.

I think having parties come out with their absolute best offers relatively early in the negotiating process should be encouraged, but if you come to a ruling where one side can claim the other side is negotiating in bad faith legally simply because they refuse to move from their position makes it so parties will never actually want to table their actual best proposal. This comes even more apparent the fewer issues you have (say if you are just negotiating price).

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11-23-2012, 12:44 PM
  #299
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No...the NHL no longer has the obligation to contribute to the pension on a go-forward basis.
Thanks for the clarification.

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11-23-2012, 12:44 PM
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Daly today

If the players vote to decertify their union it would "likely lead to the end of the season."

http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/i...70-daly-speaks
I know it's part of the script, but that isn't going to scare anyone.

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