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Mirtle: NHLPA’s hard-liners hint at decertification after latest offer rejected

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11-23-2012, 12:46 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
I know it's part of the script, but that isn't going to scare anyone.
The hardline elements of the union want this and have since they took the union from Kelly. Dan Cleary hinted at it in the summer that they were willing to go 1-2 years to fix things if need be. So they won't be remotely scared but there will be some players that are.

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11-23-2012, 12:56 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
The hardline elements of the union want this and have since they took the union from Kelly. Dan Cleary hinted at it in the summer that they were willing to go 1-2 years to fix things if need be. So they won't be remotely scared but there will be some players that are.
Sure, no question.

This year's toast already, barring a massive move by one of the sides. It's a sunk cost and almost yesterday's news. In the event of a decert, next September, if not earlier, most if not all of the NHLs franchises are going to open their doors for business. Probably all.

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11-23-2012, 12:56 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
Arbitration is pretty much always based on comparables. The league could make a very valid case that they are in a worse economic situation than the NFL, and they give 46.5% to players with non guaranteed contracts.

The players absolutely do not want to go down that road.

The NHL has no comparable, if we're realistic. Furthermore, why would an arbiter exclude MLB?

This is really OT though. These issues are about systems and player rights. You don't use binding arbitration to settle something this complex. Arbitration is only useful if there are related & clear precedents, plus typically a choice of two options (or what's in between).

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11-23-2012, 12:56 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
Because if you do it in concert, it's an antitrust violation subjecting you to treble damages. Once the union goes away, the teams can't act in unison (beyond setting rules and maybe things like negotiating TV deals).
But my point is that if all the teams faced the exact same imminent dilemma its not necessarily collusion. What they have all done is independently acted on the action of the players which just happened to affect them all at the same time.

Basically the timing, it can be legitimately argued, is not due to collusion, but was due to an external decision that they did not make.

For example, if the government announced they were going to raise the natural gas royalties starting in January, every company marketing long range gas contracts would immediately raise their rates to factor in this new cost. That is not collusion, that is responding to an external event.

Again, maybe I am applying too much common sense to this .....


As for whether contracts are valid after, I would think they are still valid, but if the guarantees part is in the CBA as opposed to individual contracts, it may even be more worse for the players. The owners may be able to pick and choose what contracts they wish to keep.

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11-23-2012, 12:58 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
The NHL has no comparable, if we're realistic. Furthermore, why would an arbiter exclude MLB?
Closest comparable, nothing is exactly the same.

MLB also gets less than 50% of revenues (although not guaranteed one way or the other).

What I am saying, effectively, if given the closest comparables, why, as a player, would you want to risk it ......

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11-23-2012, 01:03 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
I know it's part of the script, but that isn't going to scare anyone.

Agreed. As some of us noted, you don't go into the lockout if you're going to cave after a significant portion of the season has been lost.


I want to believe that PA understands (and certainly Fehr does) that this is a bigger war than just the usual division of the pie. It's about finding a counter to lockouts. It's a magnificent tool for owners, using the unions against the players to greatly benefit their own position.


The earlier article I linked to made another interesting observation about the nature of unions vs their role in professional sports. In the rest of the world, unions extract a higher than market value wage for their constituents. In pro sports leagues, the union does the opposite and allows salaries to be repressed through artificial restraints like caps, the draft, and free agency limits.

Either owners have to give enough back to players to enjoy their ability to ignore anti-trust behavior, or the only remaining option for PAs is to dissolve and find another vehicle for communicating with peers.

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11-23-2012, 01:11 PM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
Closest comparable, nothing is exactly the same.

MLB also gets less than 50% of revenues (although not guaranteed one way or the other).

What I am saying, effectively, if given the closest comparables, why, as a player, would you want to risk it ......

Because you're only comparing one element, the player share, and assuming that a cap is already agreed to as a basis for compensation.

However, like I said above, the complexity alone makes 'binding arbitration' something neither side would or should agree to do.

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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
As for whether contracts are valid after, I would think they are still valid, but if the guarantees part is in the CBA as opposed to individual contracts, it may even be more worse for the players. The owners may be able to pick and choose what contracts they wish to keep.

Exactly how do they decide which 'guaranteed' contracts they wish to keep? It's an unilateral action on something that binds two parties, and if the lack of a CBA were to negate all contracts, then ALL contracts would be negated. You keep thinking that the players have no legal rights or leverage or that anyone would actually need to fill a 22 man roster with the best players they could find.

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11-23-2012, 01:16 PM
  #308
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All of this decertification talk is just further proof that the players don't give two ***** about the fans where hockey actually MATTERS. It's all about the lifestyle.

Quote:
James Mirtle ‏@mirtle
Best way to think of league without a union or CBA would be along the lines of European soccer. Huge money to star players. Big teams rule.
The Edmonton's and the Ottawa's are going to get buried by the New York's and the Los Angeles's again... and that's the way the players like it.

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11-23-2012, 01:20 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
All of this decertification talk is just further proof that the players don't give two ***** about the fans where hockey actually MATTERS. It's all about the lifestyle.



The Edmonton's and the Ottawa's are going to get buried by the New York's and the Los Angeles's again... and that's the way the players like it.
Yeah. Talk about union solidarity. What a ****ing joke ! If the season is cancelled. a good 20 to 25 % of the actual players m(mostlt the least paid) will never play again at NHL level next September.

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11-23-2012, 01:23 PM
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
All of this decertification talk is just further proof that the players don't give two ***** about the fans where hockey actually MATTERS. It's all about the lifestyle.



The Edmonton's and the Ottawa's are going to get buried by the New York's and the Los Angeles's again... and that's the way the players like it.
Edmonton won how many Stanley Cups, and the Rangers and Leafs won how many again?

This will be the new bit of league propaganda -- we need the players to cave or Edmonton and Ottawa won't be able to compete. The more and more you hear it, the more and more close decert is.

This can't be repeated enough: There has never been an era in NHL history in which Ranger, Maple Leaf, and Los Angeles money buried the rest of the league. There has never been an era in which that came anywhere close to happening.

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11-23-2012, 01:23 PM
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
All of this decertification talk is just further proof that the players don't give two ***** about the fans where hockey actually MATTERS. It's all about the lifestyle.



The Edmonton's and the Ottawa's are going to get buried by the New York's and the Los Angeles's again... and that's the way the players like it.
Or, you know, decertifying and the prospect of the NHL turning into the Premier League gets the owners to stop treating the players like chattel and to negotiate fairly.

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11-23-2012, 01:25 PM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
All of this decertification talk is just further proof that the players don't give two ***** about the fans where hockey actually MATTERS. It's all about the lifestyle.

The Edmonton's and the Ottawa's are going to get buried by the New York's and the Los Angeles's again... and that's the way the players like it.

Yes, indeed, it's proof that players are evil and the owners don't care about money, just making sure that everyone can enjoy hockey while paying $10 for tickets.

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11-23-2012, 01:26 PM
  #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
Edmonton won how many Stanley Cups, and the Rangers and Leafs won how many again?

This will be the new bit of league propaganda -- we need the players to cave or Edmonton and Ottawa won't be able to compete. The more and more you hear it, the more and more close decert is.
You can't possible believe what Edmonton did before salaries escalated is remotely relevant. There is absolutely no way a superstar lineup like that could be assembled and kept together by a small market in a wide open, capless league.

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11-23-2012, 01:28 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
Yeah. Talk about union solidarity. What a ****ing joke ! If the season is cancelled. a good 20 to 25 % of the actual players m(mostlt the least paid) will never play again at NHL level next September.

Shared sacrifice!

Save the small markets!

Unions are evil!

Make hockey affordable for all fans!

We have the best fans in the world!

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11-23-2012, 01:28 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
All of this decertification talk is just further proof that the players don't give two ***** about the fans where hockey actually MATTERS. It's all about the lifestyle.
Who's to say the NHLPA plans to disband for good? When has a North American players union decertified and didn't recertify once the CBA dispute was settled? Methinks this is merely a negotiating tactic intended on giving the NHL legal headaches if they want to draw this thing out much longer.

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11-23-2012, 01:29 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by HabsByTheBay View Post
Or, you know, decertifying and the prospect of the NHL turning into the Premier League gets the owners to stop treating the players like chattel and to negotiate fairly.
Oh yes, the players have been treated soooooo unfairly.

Lets be real here. Even when they lose RE: the 04/05 CBA negotiations, they still win in the end.

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11-23-2012, 01:31 PM
  #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
All of this decertification talk is just further proof that the players don't give two ***** about the fans where hockey actually MATTERS. It's all about the lifestyle.

The Edmonton's and the Ottawa's are going to get buried by the New York's and the Los Angeles's again... and that's the way the players like it.
What I don't understand is the motivation of the bulk of the players who are not superstars.In all the of the scenarios pursued by this present PA leadership, they lose and lose big.

Under decertification or a no cap league, the big stars will be paid big, the rest will lose their bargaining power and teams will fold leaving less jobs for the players over all.

They seem to be marching lock step like lambs to the slaughter though,I guess they just need to be riled up to lose sight of their own best interest
Even the twisting and shouting about make whole was all about the big guys.

This sounds like a pretty weird union to me.

By the way some union people called in to Team 1200 to say that during any long work stoppage a union will call for internal votes just to make sure that the leaders are on side with the rank and file, and that it is odd that there have been no votes as yet in this work stoppage.

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11-23-2012, 01:31 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
Oh yes, the players have been treated soooooo unfairly.

Lets be real here. Even when they lose RE: the 04/05 CBA negotiations, they still win in the end.

And NHL owners are able to flout anti-trust laws because a PA exists. They're paying well under fair market value for the players. What more do they want? Right.... MORE money. Yet you try to paint them as being in this for philanthropic reasons.

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11-23-2012, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Who's to say the NHLPA plans to disband for good? When has a North American players union decertified and didn't recertify once the CBA dispute was settled? Methinks this is merely a negotiating tactic intended on giving the NHL legal headaches if they want to draw this thing out much longer.
I think posters need to remember that this tactic is not the cure all that some think it is. The NFL actually won on appeal not the the NFLPA. The NBA/NBAPA never got to court since they settled before then. What would actually happen if the NHLPA went that route is somewhat unknown

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11-23-2012, 01:32 PM
  #320
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I think there is a lot of natural turnover every season. There is always going to be players retiring and AHL/NHL tweeners that don't get a shot again no matter if there is a lockout or not.

But on a basic level it is of course true that the average NHLPA member don't have that many paychecks in his career and any work stoppage is doing economic damage that can't be undone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Who's to say the NHLPA plans to disband for good? When has a North American players union decertified and didn't recertify once the CBA dispute was settled? Methinks this is merely a negotiating tactic intended on giving the NHL legal headaches if they want to draw this thing out much longer.
I think it's important to note that the NBA players didn't actually decertify. They just agreed to vote on it in the future.

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11-23-2012, 01:34 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post

By the way some union people called in to Team 1200 to say that during any long work stoppage a union will call for internal votes just to make sure that the leaders are on side with the rank and file, and that it is odd that there have been no votes as yet in this work stoppage.

I was wondering when you'd show up to put your own particular spin on this.

There's nothing odd about it. Have the owners voted on anything yet, or just received reports from their negotiating committee?

Please don't try this tactic again. The players are informed because they are in the negotiating room, and they can attend any meeting.

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11-23-2012, 01:35 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
Because if you do it in concert, it's an antitrust violation subjecting you to treble damages. Once the union goes away, the teams can't act in unison (beyond setting rules and maybe things like negotiating TV deals). Even the threat of treble damages is a deterrent, because the teams wouldn't even want to risk them even for things that a court might eventually say are valid.

Does anyone think if the market frees up and the union goes away, the New York Rangers or Toronto Maple Leafs would close their businesses rather than deal with the new reality?
I guess the owners could just amalgamate the operations of their respective franchises based on fair market value and become one company that has 30 divisions. Each division would be able to hire staff based on a budget set down by the parent company called the NHL.

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11-23-2012, 01:36 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
And NHL owners are able to flout anti-trust laws because a PA exists. They're paying well under fair market value for the players. What more do they want? Right.... MORE money. Yet you try to paint them as being in this for philanthropic reasons.
Hah! We've got a billionaire owner threatening to move his club from an extremely lucrative location because the city/province won't build a new arena for him. Believe me, I know that they're not doing this for philanthropic reasons but my point about the players still stands. There's no "right" side in this.

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11-23-2012, 01:38 PM
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it is odd that there have been no votes as yet in this work stoppage.
That you know of.

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11-23-2012, 01:38 PM
  #325
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I guess the owners could just amalgamate the operations of their respective franchises based on fair market value and become one company that has 30 divisions. Each division would be able to hire staff based on a budget set down by the parent company called the NHL.

Cute, but no. They'd have to get clearance from the Justice Department. You'd also have to convince 30 owners to throw their lot into one entity.

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