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All CBA talk. A deal? A deal!!!

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Old
11-22-2012, 03:05 PM
  #201
struckbyaparkedcar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409972
here is the real story.

The one sticking point is contract rights. As a sabres fan this is one area I want to see the players win. 5 year contract length would all but kill the Sabres free agency chances. I really hope the NHLPA wins this one or Pegulabucks will be meaningless.
Yayyyyyy. Let's turn the league into the NBA. So excited for five team free agency and small markets losing any and all marketable players the minute they hit UFA.

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11-22-2012, 03:12 PM
  #202
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Anything better than the loss of the entire season will be a pleasant surprise at this point.

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11-22-2012, 06:36 PM
  #203
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I realize that HeartSabres believes that the Slam reporting is beneath his notice, however I do enjoy reading some of Bruce Garrioch's articles, as well as the take from the Calgary and Edmonton writers; anyways this is an interesting tidbit from Hamrlik:

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL.../20377801.html

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410069

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11-22-2012, 07:55 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
I realize that HeartSabres believes that the Slam reporting is beneath his notice, however I do enjoy reading some of Bruce Garrioch's articles, as well as the take from the Calgary and Edmonton writers; anyways this is an interesting tidbit from Hamrlik:

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL.../20377801.html

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410069
Similar rhetoric from both sides. Players think hardliners like Jacobs are driving the bus for the owners, while moderate ownerships like the Flyers (if you buy the report that Snider is trying to get a deal done) and Penguins are muted. And Walsh keeps trotting out the line that a majority of the owners would have already accepted on of the player proposals if it was put to a full, anonymous vote.

It's all rhetoric. Screw them all.

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11-22-2012, 08:07 PM
  #205
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http://m.theglobeandmail.com/sports/...service=mobile

Count Ryan Miller among the pro-decertification group within the PA. Miller has been pretty militant in most of his comments.

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11-22-2012, 11:27 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/sports/...service=mobile

Count Ryan Miller among the pro-decertification group within the PA. Miller has been pretty militant in most of his comments.
Yeah, I saw his comments as well.

Funny 'cause the NFLPA only won the 1st judgement when they decertified. The NFL came back and won the next two cases getting the judge to agree that decertification was only a negotiating technique and the PA wasn't really serious about disbanding.

The NBA never quite got that far since they made a deal while the decert threat was in progress.

Be careful what you ask for NHLPA, it could come true. Or push you right back into the corner the owners want you in.

With this threat, decertification, lawsuits against the owners by players saying they are being denied the right to work, counter suits and appeals, I figure the season will be gone.

Just like the fiscal cliff, the crazies want to blow the whole thing up because they've convinced themselves it shouldn't be reformed or salvaged and the wreckage will be better than what they got.

Decertification in a nutshell:

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410081

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11-23-2012, 11:13 AM
  #207
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Hamrlik expands on CBA remarks; responds to Cole

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410069

Quote:
"I've been in the league for 20 years and faced three lockouts," Hamrlik told TSN's That's Hockey on Wednesday. "There's only 14 other players in the league that are facing their third career lockout. I believe I've earned the right to say what I think."
Quote:
"Someone thinks I'm selfish - I might be," Hamrlik told TSN. "But it's selfish to play hockey. I still want to play with the Capitals or at least have the chance to win and go as far as I can. I think time is against us and we need to find a solution. I think that it's a fight between two groups that have too much pride. We need to find an agreement - I still support Fehr, but we as players we need to push him a little bit more and get the best deal possible."
Quote:
"Erik Cole has his opinion like everyone else," said Hamrlik. "I'm a little bit disappointed in what he said. What I do know is he has three years left on his contract and I'm sure he got a nice signing bonus this summer, so I don't think he didn't have to sacrifice anything. So good for him, good agent."


Last edited by joshjull: 11-23-2012 at 11:20 AM.
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Old
11-23-2012, 12:31 PM
  #208
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There are drawbacks for the players to decertifying. Owners can walk away from current contracts, players have no pension contributions from the owners, more than a handful of franchises folding under the financial burdens of the wild and wooly world decertification could lead to. That of course would led to less NHLPA members having jobs, etc. Mike Johnson on TSN laid out a brief summary of why this isn't all roses for the players.


At the end of the day I'm amazed any 3rd/4th liner, bottom pairing dman, older player or fringe NHLer would go along with this NHLPA strategy. If the fight goes that route they are the ones to suffer not the stars. Which is who this fight has always been about anyway. They've done a masterful job selling the little guys that its their fight as well. Something Neuvirth touch on when he backed Hamrlik's comments.


Last edited by joshjull: 11-23-2012 at 03:05 PM.
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11-23-2012, 01:58 PM
  #209
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I've been behind the owners for most of this lockout but I think the player's last offer was pretty good. I know the idea that the salary cap can never go down sticks in the owners craw but if they got this season started in a speedy fashion (ie before Christmas, which is when most people start paying attention to hockey anyways) I don't see why HRR would decrease- it hasn't decreased in the last decade. Split the difference at $300m for Make Whole and start the season. I'm not sure what the owners are still holding out for.

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11-23-2012, 02:02 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by aceface33 View Post
I've been behind the owners for most of this lockout but I think the player's last offer was pretty good. I know the idea that the salary cap can never go down sticks in the owners craw but if they got this season started in a speedy fashion (ie before Christmas, which is when most people start paying attention to hockey anyways) I don't see why HRR would decrease- it hasn't decreased in the last decade. Split the difference at $300m for Make Whole and start the season. I'm not sure what the owners are still holding out for.
I think there's just way too much uncertainty to ever expect the revenues not to go down, especially as once agreed upon it would be war to get it out of the next CBA; especially as the players only want 5yrs.

I definitely wouldn't mind seeing the NHL adopt some of the terminology from the NBA such as the lack of skill clause in contracts to allow them to get out from bad ones, since they want any assigned contracts to count against the cap. Better yet would be the NFL non-guaranteed but the players would never go for that.

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11-23-2012, 02:07 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by aceface33 View Post
I've been behind the owners for most of this lockout but I think the player's last offer was pretty good. I know the idea that the salary cap can never go down sticks in the owners craw but if they got this season started in a speedy fashion (ie before Christmas, which is when most people start paying attention to hockey anyways) I don't see why HRR would decrease- it hasn't decreased in the last decade. Split the difference at $300m for Make Whole and start the season. I'm not sure what the owners are still holding out for.
If the players are asking for no drop in their pay due to lost revenues or a drop in the Canadian dollar. Then they are not accepting a true 50/50 split. Why should the owners take the risk that if revenues go down or the Canadian dollar drops in value they have to take a bath financially but the players don't take a hit at all?

It completely defeats the purpose of linking salaries to revenues. Its also what the NHLPA has been trying to do from the get go.


And to spin on your point that its unlikely that revenues go down. Then why do the players need the guarantees? Shouldn't they move forward as well?

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11-23-2012, 02:16 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post

And to spin on your point that its unlikely that revenues go down. Then why do the players need the guarantees? Shouldn't they move forward as well?
I think it's an ego thing, they want to win a victory over the owners. Since I think revenues are going to go up I'd give it to them and try to get them to come down on make whole.

I also like it since it's an incentive for the owners to keep revenues growing, ie stop propping up unprofitable teams in the south.

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11-23-2012, 02:36 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by aceface33 View Post
I think it's an ego thing, they want to win a victory over the owners. Since I think revenues are going to go up I'd give it to them and try to get them to come down on make whole.

I also like it since it's an incentive for the owners to keep revenues growing, ie stop propping up unprofitable teams in the south.
How soon Sabre fans forget that the only reason, post lockout, they ever broke even or made a small profit was due to revenue sharing money from the league. And we're considered a strong hockey market.

Hockey as a stand alone business is not a very profitable business. Thats largely due to the cost being driven by league wide factors but the majority of each team's revenues comes from their market. So smaller markets have to pay big markets prices with small market revenues. Its the arena deals that make the LLCs that own the teams profitable. The hockey teams are essentially lost leaders that anchor those arenas. But they make their money on the concerts and other events their arena hosts (other than the NHL games).


Last edited by joshjull: 11-23-2012 at 03:06 PM.
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Old
11-23-2012, 03:09 PM
  #214
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Something thats somewhat bizarre as a Sabre fan during this lockout is Pegula as the owner. He's already stated he doesn't care about making money with the team. As he famously said, he would drill another well if he wanted more money. Any economic system like the ones that have been discussed potentially coming out of decertification would have been very detrimental to the Sabres in the past. But it would actually benefit a Pegula owned Sabres. He will essentially operate as a big market regardless of revenues.


Last edited by joshjull: 11-23-2012 at 03:30 PM.
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11-23-2012, 04:31 PM
  #215
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All Star Game and all December games through the 14th Canx'd:

NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly said the league had planned to cancel the games last week, but wanted to wait to see how talks to get a collective bargaining agreement with the NHL Players' Association went this week before a decision was made.

"The reality of losing more regular-season games as well as the all-star weekend is extremely disappointing," said Daly in a statement. "We feel badly for NHL fans and particularly those in Columbus, and we intend to work closely with the Blue Jackets organization to return the all-star events to Columbus and their fans as quickly as possible."

The league has now lost a total of 422 games, or 34.3% of the regular season. Commissioner Gary Bettman estimated the league is losing $18-to-$20 million per-day in revenues while the players are losing approximately $9 million.



If that's the case, the league has lost more than $1.2 billion in business while the players losses are at $630 million as the lockout reaches Day 70.


Last edited by Old Navy Goat: 11-23-2012 at 04:53 PM.
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Old
11-23-2012, 04:34 PM
  #216
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I love to see how much money players can rob themselves of.

As soon as October 26th passed, it was clear the players were at least going to lose the financial aspects of the deal. As soon as they made it clear they wanted to prove a point more than make money, I've been rooting for them to lose as much money as possible.

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11-23-2012, 06:01 PM
  #217
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They should just cancel the whole season and stop being a tease that there's a chance for some games.

If they don't resolve it before christmas, season is toast.

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11-23-2012, 06:13 PM
  #218
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They should just cancel the whole season and stop being a tease that there's a chance for some games.

If they don't resolve it before christmas, season is toast.


Season canceled thru Dec. 14th


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11-23-2012, 10:16 PM
  #219
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More rhetoric from both sides:

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL.../20380801.html

Brouwer response to Neuvirth / Hamrlik comments:

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410109

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11-24-2012, 02:50 PM
  #220
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Anyone else going to make an effort to not put money into the league next year? I plan on not going to any games/buying any merchandise

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11-24-2012, 03:14 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
Anyone else going to make an effort to not put money into the league next year? I plan on not going to any games/buying any merchandise
if we could get 1 million people do that the NHL would finally hear the Fans voice, but it won't happen .....

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11-24-2012, 05:42 PM
  #222
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Dave Bolland building bridges between players and owners is going to be a great help

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11-25-2012, 05:13 AM
  #223
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Dave Bolland building bridges between players and owners is going to be a great help
Bettman is an idiot and Fehr is a hero. This stuff is getting a bit boring.

The biggest hang up right now is the NHL owners want 5 year contract limits which I don´t think is right but then why is the NHL the only league with gauranteed contracts? The players have it pretty good and I think they know it.

I am getting tired of the players talking about how they are giving into the owners demands. The fact is the players are getting way to much and they should be giving into the owners demands, the actually should be happy to get a 50-50 split. Guaranteed money is a big problem. The way I see it...

Players should be payed out existing contracts
The revenue should be split 50-50 players and owners with some formula allowing teams to go over the cap until the existing contracts expire
Luxury tax and the ability to trade cap space
Contracts should not be limited to 5 years but I think contracts should not be guaranteed to a certain extent.
there needs to be a direct link to the 50-50 split as a percentage and not as a number. It is ridiculous if the players want a 50-50 split but want guaranteed money. That is NOT a 50-50 split then.

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11-25-2012, 11:11 AM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/sports/...service=mobile

Count Ryan Miller among the pro-decertification group within the PA. Miller has been pretty militant in most of his comments.
Miller pretty much sums up how I think the majority of fans feel with these quotes:

Quote:
Miller, however, is skeptical, and he has some company among his fellow veteran players, many of whom lived through the full season lockout in 2004-05. They don’t see a willing negotiating partner on the other side – players at Wednesday’s meeting complained that the owners in attendance showed little interest in their proposal – or a just resolution without more drastic action.
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“I am tired of the disregard and the ego,” Miller said. “Our fans and sponsors are alienated, and this is hurting the game. This process has more of the appearance of brand suicide than a negotiation.”

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11-26-2012, 09:36 AM
  #225
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
If the players are asking for no drop in their pay due to lost revenues or a drop in the Canadian dollar. Then they are not accepting a true 50/50 split. Why should the owners take the risk that if revenues go down or the Canadian dollar drops in value they have to take a bath financially but the players don't take a hit at all?

It completely defeats the purpose of linking salaries to revenues. Its also what the NHLPA has been trying to do from the get go.


And to spin on your point that its unlikely that revenues go down. Then why do the players need the guarantees? Shouldn't they move forward as well?
Quid pro quo. The players' take a 7% haircut on HRR every year of the agreement, assuming revenues increase as they have over the entire life of the previous CBA, and, in return, the owners bear the risk of decreased revenues

The players want something--anything--out of this CBA that they didn't have in the last CBA. I think if the owners give them that something, the process will accelerate, because, as of right now, the players feel that the owners are trying to restrict everything. If the owners agree to bear the risk of decreased revenues, I think the players may be willing to give on some of the contracting issues and this thing could get wrapped up by Christmas. I think if the owners want a full win on financials, we'll be here for awhile.

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