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Old
11-23-2012, 07:55 AM
  #76
MasterDecoy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kshahdoo View Post
I'm not a fan of both teams, but as far as I remember one of those smurfs scored 60 pts last season and would be Winnipeg's best center...
Queue the DD haters in 3, 2, 1...

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Old
11-23-2012, 09:28 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kshahdoo View Post
I'm not a fan of both teams, but as far as I remember one of those smurfs scored 60 pts last season and would be Winnipeg's best center...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
Queue the DD haters in 3, 2, 1...
DD isn't better than Jokinen (when you say "would be Winnipeg's best centre", I'm assuming you mean in the future tense), and one career 60 point season for a career AHL'er to this point doesn't make him better than Little either.

If points scored last year is the only indicator of who's the better centre, is DD better than Getzlaf, O'Reilly, Backes, Stastny, J Staal, Kesler, M Richards, Roy, etc?

If it is, I really hope the Jets call up the Kings and trade them Wellwood for Richards.

That's not DD "hate" either.

As for the PK vs Bogo debate, the moderates on both sides have got this right IMO. Both good, young players with bright futures, and neither team trades their guy for the other.

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Old
11-23-2012, 09:47 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kshahdoo View Post
I'm not a fan of both teams, but as far as I remember one of those smurfs scored 60 pts last season and would be Winnipeg's best center...
Olli Jokinen had 61 points and was brought in to shore up our centre position and along with Little we have two pretty decent top 6 centers now (not elite but solid). Olli will buy us two seasons and we will hope by that time Buristrov and Schiefele will compete to fill the spot. also TNSE is on the record as saying they want to get bigger down the middle so although DD produced well last season I don't think he's the fit we need currently.

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Old
11-23-2012, 09:47 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
DD isn't better than Jokinen (when you say "would be Winnipeg's best centre", I'm assuming you mean in the future tense), and one career 60 point season for a career AHL'er to this point doesn't make him better than Little either.

If points scored last year is the only indicator of who's the better centre, is DD better than Getzlaf, O'Reilly, Backes, Stastny, J Staal, Kesler, M Richards, Roy, etc?

If it is, I really hope the Jets call up the Kings and trade them Wellwood for Richards.

That's not DD "hate" either.

As for the PK vs Bogo debate, the moderates on both sides have got this right IMO. Both good, young players with bright futures, and neither team trades their guy for the other.
Maybe not, but I'd take him over Jokinen on our team right now seeing as he's 7 years younger and 3.5 million cheaper.

I'd definitely take him over Little right now. Little's good but it looks like he'll just be a consistent 45-50 point player, whereas DD has already shown he can do better than that in his first full year in the NHL.

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Old
11-23-2012, 10:57 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huffe
DD isn't better than Jokinen (when you say "would be Winnipeg's best centre", I'm assuming you mean in the future tense), and one career 60 point season for a career AHL'er to this point doesn't make him better than Little either.
Really? He's a career AHLer because he was 2 and a half season there and only made the NHL at the ''elderly'' age of 23?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huffe
As for the PK vs Bogo debate, the moderates on both sides have got this right IMO. Both good, young players with bright futures, and neither team trades their guy for the other.
I agree with that tho. It could work if these players needed a change of scenery or if they had attitude problems but they don't. Great young players that play the same position, why trade them for each other when both teams are comfortable with what they have? As for Evander Kane - Habs fans who want a powerforward should be happy to have Pacioretty 'cause Jets fans don't seem to want to trade Kane (and for very good reason obviously). He's their Galchenyuk, no way they trade him.


Last edited by FlyingKostitsyn: 11-23-2012 at 11:10 AM.
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Old
11-23-2012, 10:58 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by sharks9 View Post
Maybe not, but I'd take him over Jokinen on our team right now seeing as he's 7 years younger and 3.5 million cheaper.

I'd definitely take him over Little right now. Little's good but it looks like he'll just be a consistent 45-50 point player, whereas DD has already shown he can do better than that in his first full year in the NHL.
That's fine, and I wouldn't take DD over Little. Little spent 1 minute more on the PK (Little - 1:30 , DD - :27) and a about 30 seconds less a game on the PP (Little - 2:45 , DD - 3:17) to only get outscored .74 to .62 on a PPG basis. He also has a 31 goal season to his credit.

Regardless, if DD and Little are comparable, it then even highlights the fact that trading Kane for another Little and a prospect makes absolutely no sense, when the Jets have Scheifele and Burmistrov developing as well.

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Old
11-23-2012, 11:00 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharks9 View Post
Maybe not, but I'd take him over Jokinen on our team right now seeing as he's 7 years younger and 3.5 million cheaper.

I'd definitely take him over Little right now. Little's good but it looks like he'll just be a consistent 45-50 point player, whereas DD has already shown he can do better than that in his first full year in the NHL.
jets wouldn't, we need to make cap floor and seem to prize size quite highly. as stated joki's definitly signed as a stop gap.

with the little vs descharnai? i wish i had a descharnia and you had an extra little then- I'd go with a guy who's "quietly good" and proven to be so in the nhl over the last 3 years over the guy with one (albeit one great) season under his belt.

In general DD doesn't fill a need and would have black mark against him in managements eyes (if you look at the jets drafting they really seem to be blind to anyone under 6'2"). To clarify i'm not hating on him as a "smurf", i just think our management would be hesitant to pursue a player of that size, just there MO.

honestly these two teams are really bad partners, they have essentially the same types of core pieces(1 young star dman, 1 young star wing, 1 star prospect center) with slightly different supporting casts. Oh, montreal has the added benefit of having a great goalie.


so what would we trade? Either someones getting fleeced in a quantity for quality, or were exchanging similar assets. Not to mention neither were playoff teams last year so neither is likely to ship out a high end prospect for immediate "middle" help.

I'm fairly certain there is just no deal here.

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Old
11-23-2012, 11:03 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Really? He's a career AHLer because he was 2 and a half season there and only made the NHL at the ''elderly'' age of 23?



I agree with that tho. It could work if these players needed a change of scenery or if they had attitude problems but they don't. Great young players that play the same position, why trade them for each other when both teams are comfortable with what they have? As for Evander Kane - Habs fans should be happy to have Pacioretty 'cause Jets fans don't seem to want to trade Kane (and for very good reason obviously).
you get it. thats exactly what i think.

i wouldn't call DD an ahl vet by anymeans or a plug/journeyman, but for the reasons outlined below i still wouldn't swap little for him, or want him being the center piece of any deal.

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Old
11-23-2012, 11:06 AM
  #84
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I'm not a Montreal or Winnipeg fan but the Jets get boned HARD in this deal. And that's coming from someone who likes Subban a lot (which many don't).

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Old
11-23-2012, 11:06 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Really? He's a career AHLer because he was 2 and a half season there and only made the NHL at the ''elderly'' age of 23?
No, I said career AHler to this point (which you neglected to bold), because before last season he was 25 had played a grand total of 49 games in the NHL. That pretty much means that up until the beginning of last season, he was pretty much a career AHLer. I didn't say he was always going to BE a career AHLer, but that his history before the start of last season shows that that's what he was.

Now, let him duplicate his recent success in the NHL for a few seasons, and then he'll have a track record in the NHL to show how good he is.

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Old
11-23-2012, 03:01 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
DD isn't better than Jokinen (when you say "would be Winnipeg's best centre", I'm assuming you mean in the future tense), and one career 60 point season for a career AHL'er to this point doesn't make him better than Little either.

If points scored last year is the only indicator of who's the better centre, is DD better than Getzlaf, O'Reilly, Backes, Stastny, J Staal, Kesler, M Richards, Roy, etc?

If it is, I really hope the Jets call up the Kings and trade them Wellwood for Richards.

That's not DD "hate" either.

As for the PK vs Bogo debate, the moderates on both sides have got this right IMO. Both good, young players with bright futures, and neither team trades their guy for the other.
First: Kinda cool that you assumed all of this from my post. I am flattered.

Second: I never said he would be winterpeg's best center.

Fourt: @ last paragraph: yeah...

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11-23-2012, 03:10 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
First: Kinda cool that you assumed all of this from my post. I am flattered.

Second: I never said he would be winterpeg's best center.

Fourt: @ last paragraph: yeah...
I think most of his response was pretty clearly in regard to this quote by Kshahdoo and not directed solely at you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kshahdoo
I'm not a fan of both teams, but as far as I remember one of those smurfs scored 60 pts last season and would be Winnipeg's best center...

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Old
11-23-2012, 03:11 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
First: Kinda cool that you assumed all of this from my post. I am flattered.

Second: I never said he would be winterpeg's best center.

Fourt: @ last paragraph: yeah...
I was responding to Kshahdoo, and only quoted you so you didn't think I was a "hater".


Last edited by Huffer: 11-23-2012 at 05:17 PM.
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Old
11-23-2012, 04:18 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
No, I said career AHler to this point (which you neglected to bold), because before last season he was 25 had played a grand total of 49 games in the NHL. That pretty much means that up until the beginning of last season, he was pretty much a career AHLer. I didn't say he was always going to BE a career AHLer, but that his history before the start of last season shows that that's what he was.

Now, let him duplicate his recent success in the NHL for a few seasons, and then he'll have a track record in the NHL to show how good he is.
It seems like you're saying that he hasn't proven enough to be called a legit NHLer yet, which he clearly has. He even proved it the year before by scoring at a 40-point pace while playing only 12 minutes a game with garbage linemates. Even if his point drop a bit he'll still be a legit #2C.

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Old
11-23-2012, 04:58 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by sharks9 View Post
It seems like you're saying that he hasn't proven enough to be called a legit NHLer yet, which he clearly has. He even proved it the year before by scoring at a 40-point pace while playing only 12 minutes a game with garbage linemates. Even if his point drop a bit he'll still be a legit #2C.
Apologies. Not saying he's not an NHL'er now, just that he doesn't have the NHL resume yet to start saying that he's a better centre than Little. I've already said I don't think straight up points are the be all end all deciding factor, but saying that, he just put up 9 more points at 25 years old compared to Little's season when he was 21.

He needs to duplicate last seasons results a few times before a case is made that he is a better centre than Little IMO.

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Old
11-23-2012, 05:00 PM
  #91
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The amount of misinformation from Jets fans in this thread is off the charts...

DD = Career AHL?
PK < Bogo because of size as opposed to advanced stats?
PK has bad work ethic?

The trade is far from a wash and personally I wouldn't do it because of Kane's work ethic problems. Subban has ZERO work ethic problems, he has an attitude problem. He works VERY hard, but he's got a big ****ing mouth.

I think it's close, but again... no go on the loose cannon.

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11-23-2012, 05:15 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Strik_IX View Post
The amount of misinformation from Jets fans in this thread is off the charts...

DD = Career AHL?
PK < Bogo because of size as opposed to advanced stats?
PK has bad work ethic?

The trade is far from a wash and personally I wouldn't do it because of Kane's work ethic problems. Subban has ZERO work ethic problems, he has an attitude problem. He works VERY hard, but he's got a big ****ing mouth.

I think it's close, but again... no go on the loose cannon.
It's misinformation to look at this page,

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8471976

and conclude that before last season, when he was 25, that DD had played most of his career "TO THAT POINT" in the AHL? (176 games AHL, 49 NHL, and 68 ECHL).

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Old
11-23-2012, 08:09 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strik_IX View Post
The amount of misinformation from Jets fans in this thread is off the charts...

DD = Career AHL?
PK < Bogo because of size as opposed to advanced stats?
PK has bad work ethic?

The trade is far from a wash and personally I wouldn't do it because of Kane's work ethic problems. Subban has ZERO work ethic problems, he has an attitude problem. He works VERY hard, but he's got a big ****ing mouth.

I think it's close, but again... no go on the loose cannon.
I'm sorry that is as inaccurate as anyone who says Subban has work ethic problems. Kane might be a bit immature, but so are a lot of 20 year olds, but not many of them score 30 goals. Kane occassionally gets in a funk and mis-directs his energy but that will come with time. But within 50 feet of the opposition's goal few players work harder than Kane. The kid loves to score and will pay the price X 10 to do so and that's why I believe he will one day score 50+ and spend most of his career scoring north of 40. Putting PK and Bogo aside the OP doesn't get you close to a player like that.

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Old
11-23-2012, 09:21 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strik_IX View Post
The amount of misinformation from Jets fans in this thread is off the charts...

DD = Career AHL?
PK < Bogo because of size as opposed to advanced stats?
PK has bad work ethic?

The trade is far from a wash and personally I wouldn't do it because of Kane's work ethic problems. Subban has ZERO work ethic problems, he has an attitude problem. He works VERY hard, but he's got a big ****ing mouth.

I think it's close, but again... no go on the loose cannon.
Strik I think you are cherry picking a few quotes from a pretty civil debate for the trade thread.

Evander hasn't had any work ethic issues outside the KHL that I am aware of.......he has a massive Ego and needs to grow up a bit but his effort level on the ice and results are solid. he is pretty driven and thinks the team is best served if he shoots allot and that isn't nessesarily the worst thing for your goal scorer to think.

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Old
11-23-2012, 09:27 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
Apologies. Not saying he's not an NHL'er now, just that he doesn't have the NHL resume yet to start saying that he's a better centre than Little. I've already said I don't think straight up points are the be all end all deciding factor, but saying that, he just put up 9 more points at 25 years old compared to Little's season when he was 21.

He needs to duplicate last seasons results a few times before a case is made that he is a better centre than Little IMO.
True, but Little is now 25 as well and has never matched that season.

If Little and DD both have the same numbers next season, I think most people would be pretty confident saying DD is the better centre.

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Old
11-23-2012, 09:45 PM
  #96
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Any Montreal fan trying to justify saying no to this can go home. This a massive overpayment by the jets. PK Subban is better than Bogosian but its not by a wide enough margin to justify this not a chance.

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11-23-2012, 10:04 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by sharks9 View Post
True, but Little is now 25 as well and has never matched that season.

If Little and DD both have the same numbers next season, I think most people would be pretty confident saying DD is the better centre.
I am guilty of not watching DD allot to be honest, how is his two way play?

There is some debate about where to slot Little in amoungst Jets fans. He is a top 6 forward but some feel he would be better suited to right wing than centre. I like Bryan's two way game and he does have good chemistry with Wheeler and Ladd. Our challenge last season was that we really had 4 legit top 6 forwards and we forced 3rd line players into top 6 rolls. That led to us having a garbage third line and or forcing our 4th line to play too much and often in third line situations. Aquiring Ponikarvovsky for our third line to play with Burmistrov and Antropov is a big signing for us. Then getting Jokinen (all be it for a steep price tag) really helps fill a huge hole at centre in our top 6. Both guys are big bodied veterans who help us short term with our biggest "short term" needs.

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Old
11-23-2012, 10:29 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by joebrute View Post
Here is one of my first proposals. I'm kinda bored, so keep it friendly if you find out something may be off.

Here it goes :


Montreal receives :

-Evander Kane
-Zach Bogosian


Winnepeg receives :

-P.K Subban
-David Desharnais
-Brendon Gallagher


?
congratulation, on your first proposal you totally captured the spirit of this forum and what its all about!

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Old
11-23-2012, 11:10 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
I am guilty of not watching DD allot to be honest, how is his two way play?

There is some debate about where to slot Little in amoungst Jets fans. He is a top 6 forward but some feel he would be better suited to right wing than centre. I like Bryan's two way game and he does have good chemistry with Wheeler and Ladd. Our challenge last season was that we really had 4 legit top 6 forwards and we forced 3rd line players into top 6 rolls. That led to us having a garbage third line and or forcing our 4th line to play too much and often in third line situations. Aquiring Ponikarvovsky for our third line to play with Burmistrov and Antropov is a big signing for us. Then getting Jokinen (all be it for a steep price tag) really helps fill a huge hole at centre in our top 6. Both guys are big bodied veterans who help us short term with our biggest "short term" needs.
It's average, he's not a defensive liability but he wouldn't be your first choice on the PK. I don't know who your best PK centre is but for us Plekanec is easily better than him defensively.

Some people also think DD should be switched to wing on MTL because of Galchenyuk coming up soon, but we'll see what happens. Another season like the one he just had or an improvement on it would make it possible that he stays at center and either Plekanec or Eller gets traded.

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Old
11-23-2012, 11:20 PM
  #100
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I like Subban, but I like Bogosian more. His skating and toughness set the bar really high. He put up good number of points and defended against the toughest assignments all year. I don't think many people who watched a lot of the Jets last year would trade him straight up for PK.

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