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Trottier vs. Crosby

View Poll Results: Who was the better player?
Trottier 56 53.85%
Crosby 48 46.15%
Voters: 104. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-23-2012, 07:46 AM
  #76
tarheelhockey
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What I find kind of funny is that if someone started a thread, "has Ovechkin been as good as Crosby during their careers", this forum would rightfully be all over that with rants about how there is more to the game of hockey than scoring points. The conclusion would be that he might have been the most dominant scorer in flashes, but not the best player for the whole period.

And if someone started a "has Malkin been the best player since the lockout" thread, it would be rants about inconsistency, laziness and lacking a complete game. The inevitable conclusion would be that he may have been the best in flashes, but not for the whole period.

And here we are in a Crosby thread, talking about inconsistency and injuries. Conclusion? Best player in flashes, but not for the whole period.

Which leads to the question: if none of these guys can be called the best player in the post-lockout period, who can? I mean, someone has to be the best of the era, right?

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11-23-2012, 07:57 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by lazerbullet View Post
He didn't separate himself from the pack. He was outscored by Henrik Sedin. Ovechkin had one less goal and same amount of points in 9 less games played.
Funny you quoted the 2nd part of my comment and then ignored it.

If you take the total time of 10 and the 1st 41 games of 11 then Sid is clearly head and shoulders above everyone else.

It's also notable that in Hart voting from 09 goal scoring was held in much more regard than in 10.

There was a lot of "the west coast guys get ignored by the media
" campaigning going on from the Vancouver people in 10. It was also very effective IMO.

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11-23-2012, 08:02 AM
  #78
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Went with Trottier here. Maybe in 10 yrs. time the answer could be different but as for right now it's Trottier.

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11-23-2012, 08:07 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I don't agree with that at all:

Best "half seasons"
That list actually strengthens what I was saying.

In 96 both Francis and Jagr score at a higher PPG clip but both are close (so not dominating) and both are well behind Mario.

Jagr in 01 scores at a slightly higher clip than Crosby but I would say that both Federov in 94 and Lindros in 97 are higher in the "dominate" category of play with their overall games.

Taking Sid (11), Lindros (97), Federov (94) and Jagr (01), Jagr sticks out as the guy with the least complete overall game of the 4.

You do have a point that the best player in the world tag is more complicated in the post healthy Lemieux era.

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11-23-2012, 08:13 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
If you take the total time of 10 and the 1st 41 games of 11 then Sid is clearly head and shoulders above everyone else.
Total time of '10 has very little to do with it. Sid is clearly head and shoulders above everyone else because of 41 games of '11. And that's just 41 games, not a very long time.

So no, Crosby was not the best for the 1.5 seasons. He was the best player for the 0.5 season. That's it.

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11-23-2012, 10:26 AM
  #81
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What I find kind of funny is that if someone started a thread, "has Ovechkin been as good as Crosby during their careers", this forum would rightfully be all over that with rants about how there is more to the game of hockey than scoring points. The conclusion would be that he might have been the most dominant scorer in flashes, but not the best player for the whole period.

And if someone started a "has Malkin been the best player since the lockout" thread, it would be rants about inconsistency, laziness and lacking a complete game. The inevitable conclusion would be that he may have been the best in flashes, but not for the whole period.

And here we are in a Crosby thread, talking about inconsistency and injuries. Conclusion? Best player in flashes, but not for the whole period.

Which leads to the question: if none of these guys can be called the best player in the post-lockout period, who can? I mean, someone has to be the best of the era, right?
I thought about this interesting question for some time.

I would say the main problem is that we can say any of them could be the best player post-lockout. Not none of these guys as you phrased the problem.

So we have three players who have a case to be called as the best player post-lockout. It's not even Gretzky-Mario thing in the late-80s. Three is a small group already. Add that even Datsyuk is not that far behind those three. And within very near future Stamkos might be in the conversation.

All this means that we have a small group of forwards who have been dominant post-lockout. Not a single one. There is no reason to believe that one of them has to be the best. You can have an opinion, but it will largely depend on what one values. Peak performance or consistency for example. But nothing is clear-cut.

Actually we had a similar problem not too long ago. Who was the best forward in 2001 - 2004? You had four different Art Ross and four different Hart winners. The most consistent, during this more or less randomly selected period of time, was probably Markus Naslund. But Jagr, Sakic, Iginla, and Forsberg had their peak seasons in that timeframe. Who do you choose? Who was the best forward? It's not clear-cut to me. What happens if we "adjust the era" and add... 2000, 1999 or 2006? Who is the best then?

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11-23-2012, 11:45 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I haven't really followed boxing for many, many years, but this sort of reminds me of decades ago... when there were 2 or 3 "titles" for each class (not sure if more or less today), given by various organizing bodies of dubious distinction. Then some guy wouldn't defend his title and it would be vacated, so they would have to figure out some system to reinstate the title. That's basically how I see Crosby's situation: he was in the mix, but the top contenders traded blows and beat each other up... then he was awarded the title of "best player" by at least one faction, based mostly on his 2010 (last 1/2-2/3 of '10 and first half of '11)... then he couldn't stay healthy the rest of '11 and most of '12, so basically vacated the title... and now there's not even any matches, but there's supposedly this "consensus" that he's been the best player in hockey for 6, going on 7 years... and that seems like quite a revisionist history from my perspective. I might agree with "as good as anyone when healthy" for the past 2-3 seasons, but that's about the max.
I was thinking specifically of what happened in the UFC with GSP, Matt Serra and the Welterweight title a few years back. GSP had the belt initially but lost it to Serra, who then suffered an injury before their rematch. As a result, GSP fought Matt Hughes for the interim title with the winner going against Serra for the distinction of Undisputed Champion.

/For the MMA buffs, I'm not comparing Sid to Serra, I just wanted to illustrate how UFC's interim mechanics are similar here. Whoever has "best player" status now, is still going to have to deal with the looming spectre of Sid's 2011 in the same way GSP still had to go through Serra.

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11-23-2012, 11:57 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
What I find kind of funny is that if someone started a thread, "has Ovechkin been as good as Crosby during their careers", this forum would rightfully be all over that with rants about how there is more to the game of hockey than scoring points. The conclusion would be that he might have been the most dominant scorer in flashes, but not the best player for the whole period.

And if someone started a "has Malkin been the best player since the lockout" thread, it would be rants about inconsistency, laziness and lacking a complete game. The inevitable conclusion would be that he may have been the best in flashes, but not for the whole period.

And here we are in a Crosby thread, talking about inconsistency and injuries. Conclusion? Best player in flashes, but not for the whole period.

Which leads to the question: if none of these guys can be called the best player in the post-lockout period, who can? I mean, someone has to be the best of the era, right?
Don't get me wrong - I would have voted Crosby for the Hart in 2009-10 (I thought Henrik Sedin was a terrible decision and the result of the media wanting to give it to someone other than Crosby or Ovechkin). But I don't think he was decisively better - Ovechkin was still better offensively.

And as indicated in the link CYM posted, Lecavalier had a stretch in 2006-07 as good as Crosby in 2010-11. Difference being that Lecavlalier was able to play after his injury, which dragged his PPG down. And Ovechkin in 2009-10 was actually a little above Crosby in 2010-11 (from a purely point perspective, not an overall game) until his first suspension.

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11-23-2012, 12:16 PM
  #84
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Is anyone having trouble with the HSP site? I wanted to look at Esposito's scoring in games that Orr didn't play in, but when I try to look at data I am getting an "attack page" warning. Is this happening to everyone or is it something on my end?

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11-23-2012, 01:06 PM
  #85
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Is anyone having trouble with the HSP site? I wanted to look at Esposito's scoring in games that Orr didn't play in, but when I try to look at data I am getting an "attack page" warning. Is this happening to everyone or is it something on my end?
Yes. See the "old game summaries" thread that is stickied

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11-23-2012, 01:23 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
That list actually strengthens what I was saying.

In 96 both Francis and Jagr score at a higher PPG clip but both are close (so not dominating) and both are well behind Mario.

Jagr in 01 scores at a slightly higher clip than Crosby but I would say that both Federov in 94 and Lindros in 97 are higher in the "dominate" category of play with their overall games.

Taking Sid (11), Lindros (97), Federov (94) and Jagr (01), Jagr sticks out as the guy with the least complete overall game of the 4.

You do have a point that the best player in the world tag is more complicated in the post healthy Lemieux era.
I thought you mean "dominant" in more absolute terms, rather than dominating the current competition. In that case, his 2011 half season was probably as dominant as any in recent memory. Some similar stretches may have been Malkin last year, Ovechkin in '08, Jagr in '06 and Forsberg in '03.

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11-23-2012, 01:24 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I thought you mean "dominant" in more absolute terms, rather than dominating the current competition. In that case, his 2011 half season was probably as dominant as any in recent memory. Some similar stretches may have been Malkin last year, Ovechkin in '08, Jagr in '06 and Forsberg in '03.
Ovechkin in 2010 and Lecavalier in 2007 too.

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11-23-2012, 01:37 PM
  #88
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I would say the main problem is that we can say any of them could be the best player post-lockout. Not none of these guys as you phrased the problem.
I'm not sure that any argument could effectively support Ovechkin as the best player of the era. He's had some of the best seasons, but he's clearly taken a step back (and not due to missing GP) and even at his peak, he wasn't as complete as Crosby. Though to his credit, he was a bigger physical presence than Trottier's otherwise-comparable teammate Bossy.

I think we all have an idea of where we rank Crosby generationally, and it's doubtful any minds will be changed on that topic here. Let's get back to the comment that touched off this tangent, which was that Crosby has been a bigger player in his generation than Trottier.


Crosby's best competition
Malkin
Ovechkin
Datsyuk
Thornton
Stamkos

Trottier's best competition
Lafleur
Bossy
Dionne
Gretzky
Anyone else in this category?

Obviously we can scratch Gretzky off the list as the best player of either era. Looking at what's left over, we have some parallels in Bossy/Ovechkin and Dionne/Thornton, and in both cases I'd say the modern players are probably better overall (unless you believe scoring points is the be-all).

Then we have Malkin, Datsyuk, and Stamkos as modern MVP contenders, one of whom is really a statistical pretender. Trottier had Lafleur.

So after all of that whittling, it comes down to a core question -- how does Trottier's relationship with Lafleur compare to Crosby's relationship with Malkin and Datsyuk?

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11-23-2012, 03:18 PM
  #89
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Crosby's had some pretty tough competition (except in 2011, which is one reason he appeared so dominant in comparison to his peers). I think Crosby has an edge offensively, but I believe he gets way too much credit for his overall game, where I think Trottier had the edge. It's close on a peak/short prime basis, but Trottier was durable, consistent and Crosby hasn't established a long enough prime to match that yet IMO. Crosby acts like the "anointed one" and talks the talk, but Trottier walked the walk. That makes it an even easier decision at this point.

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11-23-2012, 03:57 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by CpatainCanuck View Post
Once again "old-time" fans look at the past with rose-coloured glasses.

How many points do you think Crosby would be scoring with Mike Bossy and Clark Gillies in their prime as regular linemates, instead of journeymen like Armstrong, Malone, Kennedy and (old) Recchi. Who would the equivalent of Bossy and Gillies be today?
I'm not one of those guys that penalizes a guy because he plays with another Hall of Famer so I won't do it with Trottier. And I won't do it with Crosby either who always has had Malkin behind him at center forcing a team to decide which line to check. Not to mention power play time with Malkin and the odd time they are linemates just to mix it up. They've both had great players to play with, and they've both benefitted from it.

That being said, Trottier is leading this poll 34-22 so I think it goes beyond "old time" fans being bias about the past. To have watched Trottier it is impossible to just dismiss this discussion. Trottier at his best scored 134 points, with Dionne getting 130 and Lafleur getting 129. I don't think Crosby has ever proven to be much more offensively - if at all - than Dionne or Lafleur. Then in 1980 he wins the first of four Cups. He wins the Smythe, which Crosby didn't do yet. He leads his team in playoff points twice when they win the Cup all the while having Mike Bossy as his main competition. He also maintains his wonderful all around game.

Now look, Crosby is turning into a player that we might just say "what if" regarding when all is said and done. He's been clumsy on the ice and injured himself two times at a time when he was leading the NHL in points. He's also been outpointed in a full season by Henrik Sedin. Hey, no big deal, Trottier got outpointed by Peter Stastny which is definitely not any worse. And while you can say that Crosby has always been among the top 1-3 players in the NHL the truth is Malkin did better for the Cup in 2009, Malkin has won more Art Rosses and Ovechkin has a better Hart track record. You may not be wrong if you say Crosby is the best player post lockout, but you can also make a very good argument that Trottier was the best player in the game for a couple years and only once a kid named Gretzky came along did he finally lose that title. Even then, he's probably the 2nd best player in the world for a little while.

Crosby can still yet prove to us that he is clearly superior to Trottier, but as long as he has his head up Fehr's (well, you know what) we aren't going to even see what he can do at the age of 25. Trottier had 129 points and another Stanley Cup when he was 25 for those wondering.

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11-23-2012, 04:13 PM
  #91
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The idea that Crosby has somehow distanced himself from the pack is the biggest myth on this site. He's barely played for 1.5 years, before that, he certainly hadn't cemented anything as far as being the clear front runner.

Where does everyone come up with this crap?

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11-23-2012, 04:22 PM
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He's been clumsy on the ice and injured himself two times
Now that's some interesting phrasing



I don't disagree with most of the rest of your post, though.

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11-23-2012, 04:34 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Gabbychuk View Post
Crosby.

05-06 81-39-63-102- sixth in scoring
06-07 79-36-84-120- First in scoring
07-08 53-24-48-72- 2nd in ppg
08-09 77-33-70-103- third in scoring
09-10-81-51-58-109- second in scoring
10-11-41-32-34-66- first in ppg
11-12-22-8-27-37- first in ppg

Nobody comes close to Crosby consistency.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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11-23-2012, 05:32 PM
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Now that's some interesting phrasing



I don't disagree with most of the rest of your post, though.
Alright didn't "injure" himself but he was a little careless and had he kept his head up the Steckel hit doesn't happen. Same thing in 2008 sliding into the end boards. Crosby had and still has a bad habit of doing that. I don't know if he was trying to draw a penalty, I'm not in his head, but it was another case of him costing himself an Art Ross.

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11-24-2012, 12:32 AM
  #95
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None of the information in this thread has been conclusive enough evidence to me to suggest Crosby is close to Trottier. As far as I'm concerned, Trottier is the superior player.

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11-24-2012, 01:24 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Gabbychuk View Post
Crosby.

05-06 81-39-63-102- sixth in scoring
06-07 79-36-84-120- First in scoring
07-08 53-24-48-72- 2nd in ppg
08-09 77-33-70-103- third in scoring
09-10-81-51-58-109- second in scoring
10-11-41-32-34-66- first in ppg
11-12-22-8-27-37- first in ppg

Nobody comes close to Crosby consistency.
ppg doesn't mean a lot when you lie in bed for half a season.

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11-24-2012, 09:37 AM
  #97
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ppg doesn't mean a lot when you lie in bed for half a season.
On the other hand, the OP asks who is the "better player", which has little to do with who got a concussion and who didn't.

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11-24-2012, 11:22 AM
  #98
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I mean, someone has to be the best of the era, right?
not at all, just like their is no best team of an era, or best goalie.

parody exists amongst the teams today, and parody amongst the top players exists as well. on any given night, about 6-8 players could have the title "best player", just like any team could.

the days of Orr, Gretzky, and Lemieux are over. they WERE the best players in their era because they were leaps and bounds ahead of the rest. today's "concensus" "best player" hasnt won a scoring title in 5 years LMAO

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11-24-2012, 11:35 AM
  #99
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On the other hand, the OP asks who is the "better player", which has little to do with who got a concussion and who didn't.
I think he might be refering to the fact that Crosby can't get any credit sitting in the press box. Which is true. You want to really put a stamp of approval on things then play a full season. This is Crosby's 3rd year in a row where he will miss significant time (and maybe the whole season).

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not at all, just like their is no best team of an era, or best goalie.

parody exists amongst the teams today, and parody amongst the top players exists as well. on any given night, about 6-8 players could have the title "best player", just like any team could.

the days of Orr, Gretzky, and Lemieux are over. they WERE the best players in their era because they were leaps and bounds ahead of the rest. today's "concensus" "best player" hasnt won a scoring title in 5 years LMAO
Well to be fair, you are talking about three of the best ever. Throw in Howe as well. Take those 4. They are the cream of the crop. They WERE the best when they played. The reason we haven't seen their like again is because players like them are so remote. It will happen eventually but it wasn't Crosby, John Tavares and I am willing to be it won't be Nathan MacKinnon either. Someone eventually will stand out.

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11-24-2012, 12:58 PM
  #100
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I think he might be refering to the fact that Crosby can't get any credit sitting in the press box. Which is true. You want to really put a stamp of approval on things then play a full season. This is Crosby's 3rd year in a row where he will miss significant time (and maybe the whole season).
So now he's being penalized for lockouts too?

The OP asked who is the best player. Not who has the nicest trophy case, who had the most productive career, who stays the healthiest. Simply, put these two players on the ice (against their peers, we assume) and which is the better player of the game of hockey?

We wouldn't say Larry Murphy was a better player than Bobby Orr, right? Mario Lemieux was clearly a better player than Dave Andreychuk, right? The same logic applies here. Crosby might miss a lot of games, but that doesn't have any bearing on how good a player he is.

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