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Old
11-20-2012, 11:21 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
The offensive zone stat is a bit ridicuous, IMO. It averaged out to something like 1.5 extra faceoffs per game in offensive zone. Or maybe even less, I'm too lazy to do the math again.

At the start of the year Pacioretty and Cole weren't expected to be our two best wingers either (and Cole wasn't at first).

Anyway, I probably shouldn't get involved in this debate again. He proves people wrong enough with his play that I don't need to argue about it.
To be honest, I don't know the offensive start numbers myself as I don't really put too much stock into advanced stats in hockey. In watching the games though, it was easy to see that Desharnais got all the good offensive shifts so as to shelter him defensively. It's called good coaching. Look, the guy will never develop into an all-round player but he has proved that he belongs in the NHL. I wouldn't put any cap on the amount of points he could score though, because if he'd play in a talented top-9 like Chicago or Philly, the sky's the limit.

If he is to be on a championship caliber team, he'd better be surrounded with other players who can carry the play, but shutdown the opponent as well.

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11-20-2012, 11:22 PM
  #102
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The offensive zone stat is a bit ridicuous, IMO. It averaged out to something like 1.5 extra faceoffs per game in offensive zone. Or maybe even less, I'm too lazy to do the math again.
That's a massive difference. It works out to 120 extra offensive faceoffs in a season.

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At the start of the year Pacioretty and Cole weren't expected to be our two best wingers either (and Cole wasn't at first).
That's only because people were skeptical Pacioretty would rapidly recover from injury. Pacioretty's productivity in 2010-2011 is actually very similar to his production in 2011-2012.

Gionta could be a better winger than Cole, but he was injured. Happens.

AK46 was playing at a 32 goal pace on the Eller pace, as good as Cole played. He was then moved to the Gomez line where he produced nothing.

Cammalleri's production indeed declined to 9 goals in 38 games. He is simply not suited for defensive shutdown duty.


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11-20-2012, 11:51 PM
  #103
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That's a massive difference. It works out to 120 extra offensive faceoffs in a season.


That's only because people were skeptical Pacioretty would rapidly recover from injury. Pacioretty's productivity in 2010-2011 is actually very similar to his production in 2011-2012.

Gionta could be a better winger than Cole, but he was injured. Happens.

AK46 was playing at a 32 goal pace on the Eller pace, as good as Cole played. He was then moved to the Gomez line where he produced nothing.

Cammalleri's production indeed declined to 9 goals in 38 games. He is simply not suited for defensive shutdown duty.
It wasn't the shutdown work that killed Cammalleri last year, his even strength scoring was fine. It was the lack of powerplay scoring. The PP is Cammalleri's bread and butter, on even strength he isn't any better than Kostitsyn.

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11-23-2012, 09:26 AM
  #104
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That's a massive difference. It works out to 120 extra offensive faceoffs in a season.
Massive... really? We're talking 120 faceoffs for an entire 82 games seasons. Most top6 centers take 1000 to 1500 of them yearly, sometimes more (and Desharnais is 15th (1371) for FO taken, Plekanec is 3rd (1678).

While this stat shows Desharnais was used in a more offensive role than Plekanec (something extremely obvious and understandable considering Plekanec is by far our best defensive forward and also one of the best in the league) its not nearly enough to say he was sheltered or anything like that.

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11-23-2012, 01:26 PM
  #105
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Clearly he signed for the logo
http://www.eliteprospects.com/team.p...1&status=stats

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11-23-2012, 02:07 PM
  #106
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Simon Gamache! Have not seen that name in a while. From Rouyn, his days in Val d'Or still haunt me

What a clutch player.

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11-23-2012, 02:33 PM
  #107
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Massive... really? We're talking 120 faceoffs for an entire 82 games seasons. Most top6 centers take 1000 to 1500 of them yearly, sometimes more (and Desharnais is 15th (1371) for FO taken, Plekanec is 3rd (1678).

While this stat shows Desharnais was used in a more offensive role than Plekanec (something extremely obvious and understandable considering Plekanec is by far our best defensive forward and also one of the best in the league) its not nearly enough to say he was sheltered or anything like that.
By itself its not a huge deal, its part of a three pronged effort to put Desharnais in a favourable situation.

-More offensive zone faceoffs
-Weaker opposing players
-Best linemates

None is huge on their own, its when they are all put together you can see how much easier time of it he had compared to the Habs other centermen.

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11-23-2012, 05:11 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
By itself its not a huge deal, its part of a three pronged effort to put Desharnais in a favourable situation.

-More offensive zone faceoffs
-Weaker opposing players
-Best linemates

None is huge on their own, its when they are all put together you can see how much easier time of it he had compared to the Habs other centermen.
It wasn't a matter of putting "Desharnais in a favorable situation", it was a matter of not putting an almost rookie player against other teams best line.

People make it sound like Desharnais was given a special treatment. He wasn't. Habs were trying to win games, and their best chance was by playing their only capable veteran center against best lines.

It's not a Desharnais vs Plekanec vs Eller thing. It all came from not signing a capable defensive center when it was time. Then, Martin had no choice but to play Desharnais in an offensive only role and use Plekanec in defensive situations.

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11-23-2012, 05:17 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
By itself its not a huge deal, its part of a three pronged effort to put Desharnais in a favourable situation.

-More offensive zone faceoffs
-Weaker opposing players
-Best linemates

None is huge on their own, its when they are all put together you can see how much easier time of it he had compared to the Habs other centermen.

Plekanec and Eller assumed most of the work load against the Canadiens opponent's top line but Pacioretty, Desharnais and Cole had to cope with our opponent's best D pairing and shutdown line.

Top D pairing + shutdown line… is that what you called "much easier time"? I call it playing your forces right.



Btw... Eller and Desharnais had a similar offensive/defensive zone starts ratio (Eller is a solid two ways player but he is below average in the faceoff circle) but you are right about Plekanec: he and Nokelainen, our right-handed faceoffs specialist, received noticeably more defensive zone starts.


EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by IWalkThroughWalls View Post
... It all came from not signing a capable defensive center when it was time. Then, Martin had no choice but to play Desharnais in an offensive only role and use Plekanec in defensive situations.
They tried... who was that guy from PHI who, because of his injury, never made it to MTL?

EDIT 2: Blair Betts! He would have been a good #4C. Good enough to allow Martin to give more O zone starts to Plekanec.


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11-23-2012, 05:44 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by IWalkThroughWalls View Post
It wasn't a matter of putting "Desharnais in a favorable situation", it was a matter of not putting an almost rookie player against other teams best line.

People make it sound like Desharnais was given a special treatment. He wasn't. Habs were trying to win games, and their best chance was by playing their only capable veteran center against best lines.

It's not a Desharnais vs Plekanec vs Eller thing. It all came from not signing a capable defensive center when it was time. Then, Martin had no choice but to play Desharnais in an offensive only role and use Plekanec in defensive situations.
It wasn't necessarily special treatment, but he was given more chances to succeed offensively. The fact Eller was given close to nothing is proof enough. Heck, even when Eller was dominating with AK, they chose to remove AK.

And as it was brought up, DD getting the most offensive FO, the better lnemates and not having to face top opposing forwards, made things easier. Not to mention, that trio also benefited from playing together on the first PP unit, with our best Dmen. Eller barely got PP time, only 52min all year, and Plekanec often was used at the point.

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11-23-2012, 06:51 PM
  #111
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Sure the Canadians made moves to shelter Desharnais. Meanwhile other teams took great efforts to target him. He was centering the Habs top line. I suspect other teams noticed.

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11-24-2012, 06:10 AM
  #112
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Desharnais with his first assist yesterday in 3-0 win for Fribourg Gottéron against the swiss leader Genève Servette (Weber, Couture). He played pretty good yesterday, he won a lot of face-off, and had a pretty good puck conservation.

Desharnais played 3 games so far, has only 1 assist, 2 penalty minutes, a +- 0, and had 4 shoots on goal.

Interview after Desharnais's first game against HC Bienne : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy3C8EQAS-4

~ 25 minutes of yesterday's game against Genève Servette :http://www.rts.ch/video/sport/sport-...-fribourg.html => Not sure you can watch it outside Switzerland without a swiss proxy, but I'll try

Another picture of Desharnais in his new color :

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11-24-2012, 02:10 PM
  #113
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It wasn't necessarily special treatment, but he was given more chances to succeed offensively. The fact Eller was given close to nothing is proof enough. Heck, even when Eller was dominating with AK, they chose to remove AK.
Martin tried to give Habs more chance to succeed, period. That came by playing Desharnais in offensive situation and Plekanec in defensive situation.

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And as it was brought up, DD getting the most offensive FO, the better lnemates and not having to face top opposing forwards, made things easier. Not to mention, that trio also benefited from playing together on the first PP unit, with our best Dmen. Eller barely got PP time, only 52min all year, and Plekanec often was used at the point.
For Desharnais to succeed in the offensive role he was given, he had to play with the best offensive players. That's why he started the season playing with Cole and Cammalleri. It's only when it became evident that Cammalleri was struggling that Martin tried Pacioretty on the offensive line (I don't call it the 1st line).

Now, I agree that Martin chose to give that offensive role to Desharnais over Eller. That was his choice. But it probably came from what he saw the previous year, when Desharnais managed to get 22 points in 43 games while Eller got 28 in 79 games. That year, playing with marginal players, Desharnais proved he could create space for his teammates, be effective on the PP, and produce points. That's probably where he won over Eller.

Was it a bad decision? Would Eller have gotten more than 60 points last season if he was given the offensive role in place of Desharnais? Well, that I don't know. One can only make assumptions.

But it's very well possible that in a very near future, Eller will take this role away from DD. And if he actually become a better offensive asset than Desharnais, well that's just very good news for all of us!

Like I said, It's not a DD vs Pleky vs Eller thing. We have to understand the context we were in last year. The decisions that were taken were the best for the team, even if they weren't for some players as individuals. It gave Desharnais a more offensive role, but I don't see why people seems to be offended by that. It's pretty easy to understand why it happened. Just like it's easy to understand why it may not happen again.

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11-24-2012, 02:29 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Plekanec and Eller assumed most of the work load against the Canadiens opponent's top line but Pacioretty, Desharnais and Cole had to cope with our opponent's best D pairing and shutdown line.

Top D pairing + shutdown line… is that what you called "much easier time"? I call it playing your forces right.



Btw... Eller and Desharnais had a similar offensive/defensive zone starts ratio (Eller is a solid two ways player but he is below average in the faceoff circle) but you are right about Plekanec: he and Nokelainen, our right-handed faceoffs specialist, received noticeably more defensive zone starts.


EDIT:



They tried... who was that guy from PHI who, because of his injury, never made it to MTL?

EDIT 2: Blair Betts! He would have been a good #4C. Good enough to allow Martin to give more O zone starts to Plekanec.


Your chart doesn't support your argument, I would know I consult with the guy who created it.

First there is some optical trickery going on their, Cammalleri and Gionta aren't on the chart but they would cluster around Plekanec, making for a cluster around him that you can see would be different from Desharnais group.

If you consult with other team graphs you'd find that Desharnais's usage corresponds very strongly with other lines that get used in a purely offensive, rather than two-way role, such as Nugent-Hopkins in Edmonton. Offensive lines attract good defensemen but their minutes against good forwards can be managed.

Also its 2012 when nearly everyone is a two-way player to some degree. Best opposition is best opposition for forwards, there aren't that many shutdown 3rd lines anymore.

Now if you don't want to call Desharnais's situation "easier," that is a matter of etymology. But it is a more favourable environment to score points.

Its not like this was necessarily a bad strategy for the time, but if we are to evaluate a player on point scoring we should have a strong idea of what kind of context contributed to their totals.

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11-24-2012, 05:05 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Your chart doesn't support your argument, I would know I consult with the guy who created it.

First there is some optical trickery going on their, Cammalleri and Gionta aren't on the chart but they would cluster around Plekanec, making for a cluster around him that you can see would be different from Desharnais group.

If you consult with other team graphs you'd find that Desharnais's usage corresponds very strongly with other lines that get used in a purely offensive, rather than two-way role, such as Nugent-Hopkins in Edmonton. Offensive lines attract good defensemen but their minutes against good forwards can be managed.

Also its 2012 when nearly everyone is a two-way player to some degree. Best opposition is best opposition for forwards, there aren't that many shutdown 3rd lines anymore.

Now if you don't want to call Desharnais's situation "easier," that is a matter of etymology. But it is a more favourable environment to score points.

Its not like this was necessarily a bad strategy for the time, but if we are to evaluate a player on point scoring we should have a strong idea of what kind of context contributed to their totals.
1) You wrote: "Your chart doesn't support your argument, I would know I consult with the guy who created it..."

I mentioned that Desharnais, Cole and Pacioretty had to cope with our opponent's top D pairing and this graph shows that... they played against the leading TOI Ds of our opponents. Top D pairing = leading TOI Ds.

Desharnais' line did not face "weaker" competition. Unless you consider playing against the Charas of the world as an easy task.

Extract from nhlnumbers: "... The reason for this became clear when we separated out the quality of forwards and defensemen that a player faced. Even the offense-first forwards who are used against mediocre competition see their opponents' best defensemen. This opened up the interesting possibility of using quality of competition to evaluate not just the strength of the competition, but the type of situations -- facing good forwards and bad defensemen might be similar in difficulty to facing bad forwards and good defensemen, but it is a very different type of usage..."

Source: http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/8/17/time...r-all-30-teams

2) You also wrote: "... there aren't that many shutdown 3rd lines anymore..."

Most teams still use a shutdown line.

3) You previously mentioned that Desharnais benefited from "... More offensive zone faceoffs...". Technically you are right but as underlined by other posters, Eller and Desharnais' offensive/defensive zone starts were, despite Eller superior defensive awareness, similar (offensive zone starts: 48% for Eller and 51% for Desharnais… I have to double check it tho) in 2011-12. The main reason is, imo, that Eller, contrary to Desharnais, did not progress significantly in the faceoffs circle.


PS regarding Cammalleri and Gionta... I guess the authors did not include them because they did not play enough games for the Canadiens in 2011-12. That being mentioned, I think that Cammalleri would definitely not cluster around Plekanec.


EDIT:

Reference #2: http://www.hockeyanalytics.com/Resea...harts_2012.pdf

Notice that Desharnais, Cole and Pacioretty's names are above the x line. Sheltered players are below it and they appear further to the right. Also keep in mind that Relative Corsi tends to undervalue the difficulty associated with playing against the opponent's top D pairing and shutdown line.


Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 11-24-2012 at 05:23 PM.
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11-24-2012, 05:15 PM
  #116
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Desharnais with his first assist yesterday in 3-0 win for Fribourg Gottéron against the swiss leader Genève Servette (Weber, Couture). He played pretty good yesterday, he won a lot of face-off, and had a pretty good puck conservation.

Desharnais played 3 games so far, has only 1 assist, 2 penalty minutes, a +- 0, and had 4 shoots on goal.

Interview after Desharnais's first game against HC Bienne : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy3C8EQAS-4

~ 25 minutes of yesterday's game against Genève Servette :http://www.rts.ch/video/sport/sport-...-fribourg.html => Not sure you can watch it outside Switzerland without a swiss proxy, but I'll try

Another picture of Desharnais in his new color :



For the logo and to come out of the mouth the dragon :
Thanks for the update; good to read that he keeps up his good work in the faceoffs circle; it was a weak aspect of his game in the early parts of the 2011-112 season.

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11-24-2012, 10:57 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
1) You wrote: "Your chart doesn't support your argument, I would know I consult with the guy who created it..."

I mentioned that Desharnais, Cole and Pacioretty had to cope with our opponent's top D pairing and this graph shows that... they played against the leading TOI Ds of our opponents. Top D pairing = leading TOI Ds.

Desharnais' line did not face "weaker" competition. Unless you consider playing against the Charas of the world as an easy task.

Extract from nhlnumbers: "... The reason for this became clear when we separated out the quality of forwards and defensemen that a player faced. Even the offense-first forwards who are used against mediocre competition see their opponents' best defensemen. This opened up the interesting possibility of using quality of competition to evaluate not just the strength of the competition, but the type of situations -- facing good forwards and bad defensemen might be similar in difficulty to facing bad forwards and good defensemen, but it is a very different type of usage..."

Source: http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/8/17/time...r-all-30-teams

2) You also wrote: "... there aren't that many shutdown 3rd lines anymore..."

Most teams still use a shutdown line.

3) You previously mentioned that Desharnais benefited from "... More offensive zone faceoffs...". Technically you are right but as underlined by other posters, Eller and Desharnais' offensive/defensive zone starts were, despite Eller superior defensive awareness, similar (offensive zone starts: 48% for Eller and 51% for Desharnais… I have to double check it tho) in 2011-12. The main reason is, imo, that Eller, contrary to Desharnais, did not progress significantly in the faceoffs circle.


PS regarding Cammalleri and Gionta... I guess the authors did not include them because they did not play enough games for the Canadiens in 2011-12. That being mentioned, I think that Cammalleri would definitely not cluster around Plekanec.


EDIT:

Reference #2: http://www.hockeyanalytics.com/Resea...harts_2012.pdf

Notice that Desharnais, Cole and Pacioretty's names are above the x line. Sheltered players are below it and they appear further to the right. Also keep in mind that Relative Corsi tends to undervalue the difficulty associated with playing against the opponent's top D pairing and shutdown line.
-Most teams have shutdown lines, they just aren't 3rd lines anymore. Power vs power of some kind is the most common set up. If we're talking Eastern conference teams we're pretty much down to Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay and Carolina for teams that had a third line as their primary defensive unit, the other 11 had one of their top 2 lines as the top defensive unit.

-Cammalleri does cluster around Plekanec. The way I know this is I checked the Calgary chart, found where he was on it and made a comparision. These charts were made with the entire season's worth of data so MTL is a bigger factor in Cammalleri's data than CGY. Cammalleri comes in around ~16.0F, ~20.2D, similar to Plekanec's ~15.9F, ~20.0D.

-Your not the only one who made a mistake looking at that chart, a lot of smart people came to erroneous conclusions because they were looking at the shape of the thing rather than absolute values. If you compare to the rest of the league, Desharnais comes in about as low as you can get in terms of forward quality of opposition as you can be as a top-sixer.

This is were Gionta and Cammalleri being missing from the chart hurt, the entire shape of the chart got skewed by their absence, which meant that people looking at its shape rather than the values within got the wrong impression. It was an interesting day when these first came out tracking what it all meant.


-On defense, top pairing opposition is a stretch, it would be more accurate to say that both Desharnais and Plekanec's lines consistently played top 4 defenders. Again, look at the charts for other teams, not just Montreal. A line truly attracting the best of the best on D night in and out has their D TOI QoC around 20.2-20.6 minutes, not the hair under 20 51 got. That's firmly

So what we actually learnt from the TOI QoC chart was that Plekanec average 1/2 line forwards 1/2 pair defenses. Desharnais averaged 2/3rd forwards 1/2 line defenses, Eller averaged 2/3rd forwards 2nd pair defense. This meant DD was getting tougher usage than the other QoC measurements suggested but still being used in relatively lighter situations.

The TOI QoC does suggest that the lesser degree of difficulty could have been more in opposition ability to score rather than opposition skill of defense though. I think that's more likely, I don't question Desharnais offensive zone talent, its his play in the neutral and defensive zones I find more questionable.

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11-25-2012, 07:55 AM
  #118
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2nd assist yesterday for Desharnais in a second win against the swiss-leader Genève Servette in 24 hours. No shoots on goal according to the swiss national league site, but he had one shoot on goal. No penalty minutes and a +- of 0.

Highlights video, again, not sure you can watch it if you're not in Switzerland : http://www.videoportal.sf.tv/video?i...6-21867b2a6f0d

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11-25-2012, 11:37 AM
  #119
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Folks here have a tendancy to forget that the 1st line at the opening of the 2011-12 season was supposed to be Plekanec with Cammy and Gionta. Not DD, Pac and Cole. Cole was not even playing on PP under Martin. Gomez was "supposed" to be also one of the two first line centers...

So stop bashing DD for sweet nothing. He produced, The other two: no !

Anyway, the team finished 15th in the Conference. That's the bottom line.

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11-25-2012, 01:27 PM
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Folks here have a tendancy to forget that the 1st line at the opening of the 2011-12 season was supposed to be Plekanec with Cammy and Gionta. Not DD, Pac and Cole. Cole was not even playing on PP under Martin. Gomez was "supposed" to be also one of the two first line centers...

So stop bashing DD for sweet nothing. He produced, The other two: no !

Anyway, the team finished 15th in the Conference. That's the bottom line.
correct bottom line 15th

think about it , the top line completely overachieved

Cole will not score 30 goals next year , we aint playing this year

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11-26-2012, 11:15 AM
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Another picture of Desharnais from the 2nd game against Genève Servette !

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11-26-2012, 02:38 PM
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Another picture of Desharnais from the 2nd game against Genève Servette !
These hockey uniforms are a real nightmare to look at.

But maybe it's the solution for the NHL and the players to make more money.

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11-26-2012, 02:47 PM
  #123
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They look like racecar drivers.

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11-26-2012, 02:49 PM
  #124
overlords
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
These hockey uniforms are a real nightmare to look at.

But maybe it's the solution for the NHL and the players to make more money.
The minute they touch the habs jersey I'm flipping a desk.

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11-26-2012, 02:57 PM
  #125
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Desharnais looks like he's wearing a skirt they need to give him a smaller jersey.

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