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Which trade was worse, Kessel to TOR or Carter to CLB?

View Poll Results: Which trade was worse?
Phil Kessel to Toronto 183 57.19%
Jeff Carter to Columbus 125 39.06%
Both are equally bad and I can't choose just one 12 3.75%
Voters: 320. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-23-2012, 03:10 PM
  #151
Atomos2
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Well you're probably clouded in bias because you're a Leaf fans and you're so familiar with Guelph so I don't know if I should trust your opinion as 100 % accurate. Very few prospects will approach the level of the Rangers Defensemen so the odds aren't really in their favor. Besides for as great as Matt Finn may end up becoming, I'm sure Dougie Hamilton + Matt Finn still beats just Matt Finn which you seem to be ignoring.
I guess from your point, if the kessel trade didn't happen, everything that follows would remain exactly the same. Even though we don't have kessel the results would be exactly the same and everything Burke did after the trade (which on could argue was a way to get prospects back into the system aka. Gardiner, Aulie etc.) he would have done even if he kept those picks and drafted Seguin, Hamilton and the other one.

I shouldn't have to explain this but life isn't that simple. You don't just insert Seguin, Hamilton etc, in place of Kessel and expect that everything would continue exactly the way it did. S*** happens so you have to react to it. Burke lost picks so he had to get prospect. We lost our season with Kessel in the lineup and we got both Finn and Rielly.

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11-23-2012, 03:14 PM
  #152
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i guess its just me, i havent read the entire thread but I would much rather have Jeff Carter than Phil Kessel.

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11-23-2012, 03:28 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
It's too bad only us Maple Leafs fans can see things like that. You are correct that no one knew when Kessel got traded those two 1st round picks and 2nd round pick would become Tyler Seguin, Jared Knight and Dougie Hamilton. Brian Burke took a risk and it didn't work out if you value those draft picks a lot more, however Toronto still got a proven high scoring right winger who is always good for 30-40 goals.
Are you saying Chiarelli lost the deal right when he made it? Draft picks turn into players. First round picks turn into good players a lot of the time...if Chiarelli thought the two high draft picks were going to turn into fire engines, he wouldnt have traded Phil Kessel for them. If the Maple Leafs ended up finishing in the middle of the pack, we could have drafted Tarasenko instead, or Cam Fowler, etc etc. Just because Burke didnt "know" Seguin was going to be the draft pick , doest mean those three assets Burke traded weren't incredibly valuable assets at the time he traded them. Why are you defending Burke with this? He made a calculated risk and it didn't turn out as planned, fine. You still got a good player out of it. Hes re stocked your farm system, hes done a number of other things, this trade wasn't his shining moment tho.

How do you value a trade like this if you don't base it off of the players drafted? Just because Burke didn't trade Seguin and Hamilton for Kessel doesnt mean he shouldnt be criticized for making the deal. Chiarelli didn't knowingly trade Phil Kessel for three scrubs...he knew he was going to get three valuable players in that draft when he traded him.

Should all GMs get a get out of jail free card when they trade high draft picks without knowing who the pick is gonna be?

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11-23-2012, 03:35 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
Are you saying Chiarelli lost the deal right when he made it? Draft picks turn into players. First round picks turn into good players a lot of the time...if Chiarelli thought the two high draft picks were going to turn into fire engines, he wouldnt have traded Phil Kessel for them. If the Maple Leafs ended up finishing in the middle of the pack, we could have drafted Tarasenko instead, or Cam Fowler, etc etc. Just because Burke didnt "know" Seguin was going to be the draft pick , doest mean those three assets Burke traded weren't incredibly valuable assets at the time he traded them. Why are you defending Burke with this? He made a calculated risk and it didn't turn out as planned, fine. You still got a good player out of it. Hes re stocked your farm system, hes done a number of other things, this trade wasn't his shining moment tho.

How do you value a trade like this if you don't base it off of the players drafted? Just because Burke didn't trade Seguin and Hamilton for Kessel doesnt mean he shouldnt be criticized for making the deal. Chiarelli didn't knowingly trade Phil Kessel for three scrubs...he knew he was going to get three valuable players in that draft when he traded him.

Should all GMs get a get out of jail free card when they trade high draft picks without knowing who the pick is gonna be?
Exactly this. Burke should have looked at his roster and be able to ball park results. Obviously he was blind that his team was bad. Chairelli on the other hand made an excellent call and probaly made the best deal in the past 5 years

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Old
11-23-2012, 03:36 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
When it comes to recent trades a lot of people like to say one of the worst ones was the Phil Kessel trade to Toronto based on what Boston ended up getting. However I'm wondering is that trade actually worse then Jeff Carter to Columbus trade?

We all know Boston traded Phil Kessel to Toronto for a 2010 1st round pick, (Tyler Seguin) 2010 2nd round pick (Jared Knight) and a 2011 1st round pick (Dougie Hamilton). However from the Maple Leafs side no one can doubt Kessel hasn't played great because his points have gone up each of his first three years in Toronto.

However Columbus aquired Jeff Carter from Philadelphia for a 2011 1st round pick (Sean Couturier) 2011 3rd round pick (Nick Cousins) and Jakub Voracek. Plus it was basically known that Carter was not happy with the trade and eventually during the 2011-2012 season he was then traded to Los Angeles and only played 39 games for Columbus.

So based on all of that which trade do you think was worse?
Both these trades weren't bad on paper, but due to gross misjudgments by their respective GMs as to the quality of the teams they had assembled, they turned out horrible.

Also, keep in mind that a 2nd (Brandon Saad) and 3rd (Michael Paliotta) round pick to get the 2nd (Jared Knight) to threaten an offer-sheet on Kessel to make the deal in the first place, so it was really 5 draft picks that were traded to get Kessel.

In retrospect, I don't think any GM would trade Tyler Seguin, Dougie Hamilton, Brandon Saad, and Michael Paliotta (the picks Toronto would've had if they hadn't made the 2 trades to get Kessel) for Phil Kessel.

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11-23-2012, 03:40 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
Exactly this. Burke should have looked at his roster and be able to ball park results. Obviously he was blind that his team was bad. Chairelli on the other hand made an excellent call and probaly made the best deal in the past 5 years
Best trade? Gardiner and Lupul for Beachamin was a pretty good trade too. But yeah, I get what you're saying. I think it was pride more than about confidence. He was way too proud, that's why he didn't see it coming


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Old
11-23-2012, 04:11 PM
  #157
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Toronto still has the best player in that deal.

Columbus does not.

Columbus is easily worse.

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11-23-2012, 04:23 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
I guess from your point, if the kessel trade didn't happen, everything that follows would remain exactly the same. Even though we don't have kessel the results would be exactly the same and everything Burke did after the trade (which on could argue was a way to get prospects back into the system aka. Gardiner, Aulie etc.) he would have done even if he kept those picks and drafted Seguin, Hamilton and the other one.

I shouldn't have to explain this but life isn't that simple. You don't just insert Seguin, Hamilton etc, in place of Kessel and expect that everything would continue exactly the way it did. S*** happens so you have to react to it. Burke lost picks so he had to get prospect. We lost our season with Kessel in the lineup and we got both Finn and Rielly.
Oh so we should assume that any good move the Leafs made after the Kessel trade wouldn't have been possible without the Kessel trade as a way to somehow justify it? Sorry I'm not buying it. In economics there's thing called ceteris paribus where we judge the impact of one thing by assuming all other things remain the same. If the Leafs hadn't traded for Kessel it's foolish to assume they wouldn't still have made the Gardiner trade or drafted Matt Finn.. after all the Gardiner trade was a rebuilding move and I think a team committed to a rebuild would embrace that. Makes about as much sense as saying if the Leafs hadn't traded for Kessel maybe they trade Kaberle away to the Hurricanes before 09-10 for a 1st round pick and end up with Jeff Skinner!

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11-23-2012, 04:48 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
Toronto still has the best player in that deal.

Columbus does not.

Columbus is easily worse.
Toronto gave up the best players in that deal

Columbus did not

Toronto is easily worst

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11-23-2012, 04:53 PM
  #160
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Why is a leaf fan making this?

Why do this to yourself?... just let it go.

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11-23-2012, 04:54 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
Toronto gave up the best players in that deal

Columbus did not

Toronto is easily worst
It's not about what you gave up. It's about what you have.

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11-23-2012, 04:57 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
Best trade? Gardiner and Lupul for Beachamin was a pretty good trade too. But yeah, I get what you're saying. I think it was pride more than about confidence. He was way too proud, that's why he didn't see it coming
All I was trying to say was the Leafs had finished 5th in the NE with 40, 36, 34 win seasons and a roster than didnt bolster much talent. As a GM before trading away two 1st rounders you have to evalute where your team will finish. Had the Leafs not aquired Kessel they might have been last the past 3 seasons. Its a pretty bad read by Burke if he thought they could make the playoffs. Its not like they were a perennial play off team that had 2 fluke down seasons that allowed boston to get Sequin and Hamilton

I get that he wanted to make his team better but in a rebuilding stage you should not give up 1st rounders.

Burke has admitted he lost the trade:
"Peter Chiarelli has a ring. There’s no argument,” Leafs general manager Brian Burke said of his Bruins counterpart prior to Boston’s 6-2 win against Toronto on Thursday night. “Whenever people question whether the trade worked or not, he holds up his right hand and you can’t say anything.”

And since then has made good moves to rebuild his team

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11-23-2012, 05:01 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
It's not about what you gave up. It's about what you have.
So if you gave up Weber, 1st and Ellis for Giroux
and Edmonton gave up Smid and Gagner for Duchene

you won the trade because Giroux is better then Duchene?

Its a balance of what you give up to recieve something

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11-23-2012, 05:03 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Oh so we should assume that any good move the Leafs made after the Kessel trade wouldn't have been possible without the Kessel trade as a way to somehow justify it? Sorry I'm not buying it. In economics there's thing called ceteris paribus where we judge the impact of one thing by assuming all other things remain the same. If the Leafs hadn't traded for Kessel it's foolish to assume they wouldn't still have made the Gardiner trade or drafted Matt Finn.. after all the Gardiner trade was a rebuilding move and I think a team committed to a rebuild would embrace that. Makes about as much sense as saying if the Leafs hadn't traded for Kessel maybe they trade Kaberle away to the Hurricanes before 09-10 for a 1st round pick and end up with Jeff Skinner!
Assuming

I guess if you want to believe that the world is fixed and everything remains the same, you can go ahead. This isn't economics. This is hockey and like we all saw last year with the leafs, a season is unpredictable.

But if we took your method of everything remaining the same. I'm guessing the lines would be

Lupul Seguin ...Bozak? ...Connolly? ...Kadri...oh wait, he's in the AHL
Well...maybe we trade for a winger. Oh wait I forgot...everything remains the same, I guess we don't have a winger, just 6 centres.

I guess Boston kept Kessel or he went to another team and was there all star talent. And if we ended up in 5th last with Seguin in our lineup, I guess he's not as good as everyone says he is.

There are so many inconsistencies with your comment that I don't even know where to start. Please enlighten me.

PS. I'm guessing Lupul, our first line all star winger that plays with and has formed chemistry with Kessel was just an unfortunate add on to the Gardiner deal.

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11-23-2012, 05:13 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Uncle Howie View Post
Why is a leaf fan making this?

Why do this to yourself?... just let it go.
Oh yeah because if Leaf fans let it go I'm sure the talk will disappear

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11-23-2012, 05:13 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
All I was trying to say was the Leafs had finished 5th in the NE with 40, 36, 34 win seasons and a roster than didnt bolster much talent. As a GM before trading away two 1st rounders you have to evalute where your team will finish. Had the Leafs not aquired Kessel they might have been last the past 3 seasons. Its a pretty bad read by Burke if he thought they could make the playoffs. Its not like they were a perennial play off team that had 2 fluke down seasons that allowed boston to get Sequin and Hamilton

I get that he wanted to make his team better but in a rebuilding stage you should not give up 1st rounders.

Burke has admitted he lost the trade:
"Peter Chiarelli has a ring. There’s no argument,” Leafs general manager Brian Burke said of his Bruins counterpart prior to Boston’s 6-2 win against Toronto on Thursday night. “Whenever people question whether the trade worked or not, he holds up his right hand and you can’t say anything.”

And since then has made good moves to rebuild his team
You are right, although I don't think it was necessarily the trade that allowed him to win the cup, but more of the read that his team would still be a contending team without Kessel in the lineup. Don't think Seguin or Hamilton played major roles on that playoff team. But it strengthens your argument about Burke making a bad read on his teams success.

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11-23-2012, 05:17 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
All I was trying to say was the Leafs had finished 5th in the NE with 40, 36, 34 win seasons and a roster than didnt bolster much talent. As a GM before trading away two 1st rounders you have to evalute where your team will finish. Had the Leafs not aquired Kessel they might have been last the past 3 seasons. Its a pretty bad read by Burke if he thought they could make the playoffs. Its not like they were a perennial play off team that had 2 fluke down seasons that allowed boston to get Sequin and Hamilton

I get that he wanted to make his team better but in a rebuilding stage you should not give up 1st rounders.

Burke has admitted he lost the trade:
"Peter Chiarelli has a ring. There’s no argument,” Leafs general manager Brian Burke said of his Bruins counterpart prior to Boston’s 6-2 win against Toronto on Thursday night. “Whenever people question whether the trade worked or not, he holds up his right hand and you can’t say anything.

And since then has made good moves to rebuild his team
This gets glossed over a lot. For some reason, that never made much headlines. (It's a nice thing of Burke to say, so I guess it's a boring story)

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11-23-2012, 05:30 PM
  #168
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This gets glossed over a lot. For some reason, that never made much headlines. (It's a nice thing of Burke to say, so I guess it's a boring story)
Burke can admit he lost the trade.. yet Toronto fans can't.

Apparently now even we have to realize that the trade wasn't Kessel for Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight but actually Kessel, Gardiner, Lupul, Rielly, Finn, Percy and anything else positive in the Leafs organization for Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight.

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11-23-2012, 05:35 PM
  #169
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Who's CLB?

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11-23-2012, 05:49 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
So if you gave up Weber, 1st and Ellis for Giroux
and Edmonton gave up Smid and Gagner for Duchene

you won the trade because Giroux is better then Duchene?

Its a balance of what you give up to recieve something
Context is everything. Read the OP.

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11-23-2012, 05:52 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Seguin > kessel
Seguin, Hamilton, Knight >> Kessel
Whaaa??!!!

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11-23-2012, 05:57 PM
  #172
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Trading Seguin for Kessel would be a bad (or at best sideways) move for the constantly rebuilding Leafs, Hamilton and Knight just make it look so much worse. Without having Kessel they might have had an ever higher pick that year and the next.

It's truly the worst possible trade at the worst possible time, so bad that people try to overplay the positives way, way too much.

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11-23-2012, 06:04 PM
  #173
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There's a good chance the Kessel deal will end up pretty one sided for the Bruins, but both Hamilton and Seguin have a long way to go to equal one of the best offensive players in the world.

Hamilton already declared a franchise player??!! I'm a fool for allowing myself to be surprised by HFboards members yet again.

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11-23-2012, 06:13 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
Context is everything. Read the OP.
I read both the OP and your post. You say that since Kessel is better, his trade is superior. But you fail to take into account what they gave up for him.

Noones is arguing Kessel>Carter

The second part is what they gave up. If you give up substantial assets for a good player do you not put your team in a worse position than if you had not traded to get that player. Based on the assets gaven up by TML, their trade is worse because it put them at a worse position than did CBJ's trade

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11-23-2012, 06:19 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
I read both the OP
I don't think you did.
Quote:
You say that since Kessel is better, his trade is superior.
Not what I said.

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