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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VII: The Last Waltz "Cut the sheet & drop the puck!"

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Old
11-23-2012, 02:43 PM
  #576
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
I don't see how people still don't think the real problem in the NHL is the upper management. This is Bettman's 3rd lockout. It's a different group of players and a diff person representing the union and it's the same result again, owners lock out players. Bettman and Daly both have to go and the owners really make me sick. Without the players there is what? Exactly what there is now, nothing
What is there without the owners? The same nothing. Neither side is objectively more vital than the other and neither is, in my opinion, "the real problem." Both sides are disgusting. Neither cares even the slightest bit about the fans whose money they're arguing over.

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11-23-2012, 02:49 PM
  #577
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last time season was canceled on Feb 16th so we still have lots of time before the pull the plug on the full season. also a reason why neither side will feel pressure to get things done anytime soon

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11-23-2012, 02:56 PM
  #578
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How anyone can still have a side in this is mind boggling. The players, owners, NHL management, the whole lot of them are corrupt selfish pieces of feces.

That may be an insult to feces, it at least serves a purpose.
Agreed. It's pathetic.

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11-23-2012, 02:58 PM
  #579
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...Looks like there won't be any season...just saying

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11-23-2012, 03:09 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by ThatCrazyRangerFan View Post
...Looks like there won't be any season...just saying
what gave you that idea?

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11-23-2012, 03:43 PM
  #581
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Originally Posted by turcotte8 View Post
Dolan lowered the prices because the team sucked. Now they are a contender and he just spent a billion dollars renovating. Tickets are not going down, they might even go up.
Biggest farce out there! They say salary caps will help reduce ticket prices in all sports, but if you look it up, ticket prices have actually gone up.

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11-23-2012, 03:44 PM
  #582
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Originally Posted by Cliffy1814 View Post
Also, no more guaranteed contracts if they de certify. Those are something collectively bargained for.
since the owners are the ones handing out contratcs, they can re define a SPC without any input from the players.
If you have a working knowledge that is an interesting scenario. Otherwise I'm not so sure that is the case. Contracts in N.A. are binding. NFL is the exception because their CBA dictates that. They could introduce language in a contract but I don't see a business just disregarding a contract without provisions from a CBA.

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11-23-2012, 03:50 PM
  #583
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At this point, I just hope there's a season so our 1st rounder in the upcoming draft isn't a high one

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11-23-2012, 04:05 PM
  #584
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
If you have a working knowledge that is an interesting scenario. Otherwise I'm not so sure that is the case. Contracts in N.A. are binding. NFL is the exception because their CBA dictates that. They could introduce language in a contract but I don't see a business just disregarding a contract without provisions from a CBA.
It would be similar to you or I jumping ship to a new employer even though we are currently employed by a different one. Without a CBA every rule regarding player rights, current deals, etc is gone or up for grabs.

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11-23-2012, 06:20 PM
  #585
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
It would be similar to you or I jumping ship to a new employer even though we are currently employed by a different one. Without a CBA every rule regarding player rights, current deals, etc is gone or up for grabs.
I am no authority but from what I am reading, the inked contracts are enforceable after decertification.

Honoring contracts isn't a bargained for right, it is inherent in American law. American sports are monopoly exempt.

It won't get to this point regardless. It seems like people are wishing the players have no leverage, that decertification won't work in their favor. Its just a tool to force a deal. Bettman is refusing to negotiate, this is the avenue now.

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11-23-2012, 06:25 PM
  #586
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Bettman is refusing to negotiate, this is the avenue now.
This is just like last time. Bettman and the Jocobites smell weakness, so they will press. I cannot wait for next season to be in jeopardy, and the Tampas to be in danger of going out of business, so that the owners have themselves to thank.

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11-23-2012, 07:54 PM
  #587
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
I am no authority but from what I am reading, the inked contracts are enforceable after decertification.

Honoring contracts isn't a bargained for right, it is inherent in American law. American sports are monopoly exempt.

It won't get to this point regardless. It seems like people are wishing the players have no leverage, that decertification won't work in their favor. Its just a tool to force a deal. Bettman is refusing to negotiate, this is the avenue now.
Aren't all contracts subject to the CBA? Hence why players even can get locked-out (ie. not paid) or the salary could be not paid fully (under a different CBA). So I'd say after decertification those contracts are void.

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11-23-2012, 10:46 PM
  #588
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Originally Posted by jniklast View Post
Aren't all contracts subject to the CBA? Hence why players even can get locked-out (ie. not paid) or the salary could be not paid fully (under a different CBA). So I'd say after decertification those contracts are void.
Decertification? "So this sounds like the perfect solution for the players, right? Decertifying is the perfect threat?"

"Threatening to decertify the union helped to expedite CBA deals for players in the NBA and NFL, so it might make sense to try it in the NHLPA's case".


"So this is the gamble: If the NHLPA decides to decertify, they need the owners to be scared enough at the thought to offer a quick CBA solution. If the NHL doesn't blink, the NHLPA and Donald Fehr might be beyond screwed".

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Richa...tify/131/47637

Can't we all get along?

Still believe we're still on schedule for early Dec settlement.


Last edited by ltrangerfan: 11-23-2012 at 10:53 PM.
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Old
11-24-2012, 02:25 AM
  #589
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i'm starting to root for the season getting cancelled. maybe this management situation needs to be 'nuked'. it's a great sport but it has been pi$$ed-on by this administration (including the players union).
i have got to imagine that not only will fans stay away, but so will sponsors if another year (or two) are lost. and that should mean the end of this commissioner. starting it all from scratch may not be such a bad idea.
blow it all up.

(this is my opinion barring a massive change in tact on the part of the people steering this ship)

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Old
11-24-2012, 09:07 AM
  #590
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This is the brink... Once the NHLPA go the decertification route... You'll see the take it or leave it offer from the NHL. It won't be much better than what they have on the table now. They'll bump up the "make-whole" and they may budge on free-agency, BUT... I think you'll see the 50/50 and most certainly the contract limits including term and percentage.

Why?

Because its the right things to have in place. The league is spot on in asking for all of those concessions. It will make the league a healthy, viable, solvent (insert any other buzz term here) league.

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11-24-2012, 10:49 AM
  #591
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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
This is the brink... Once the NHLPA go the decertification route... You'll see the take it or leave it offer from the NHL. It won't be much better than what they have on the table now. They'll bump up the "make-whole" and they may budge on free-agency, BUT... I think you'll see the 50/50 and most certainly the contract limits including term and percentage.

Why?

Because its the right things to have in place. The league is spot on in asking for all of those concessions. It will make the league a healthy, viable, solvent (insert any other buzz term here) league.
If they fix the massive year to year fluctuations, then there's no reason for the five-year term limits. The big years were happening because of all the extra years at the end to bring the cap hit down. Nobody's going to give out one of those absurdly long deals if there's no cap benefit.

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Old
11-24-2012, 11:40 AM
  #592
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If they fix the massive year to year fluctuations, then there's no reason for the five-year term limits. The big years were happening because of all the extra years at the end to bring the cap hit down. Nobody's going to give out one of those absurdly long deals if there's no cap benefit.
Agreed.

I also really liked the PA's idea on this issue in the most recent proposal - only problem is that it needs to work on existing deals and/or deals shorter than 9 years to have any value in a CBA that is shorter than 9 years...

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Old
11-24-2012, 11:44 AM
  #593
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Anyone still see a December start?

This ****'s over. I only hope it's good in time for the next season. Greedy ****s. Lost more money already (forget this whole potential missed season) then they would have if either side accepted a proposal.

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Old
11-24-2012, 11:58 AM
  #594
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Blaming greed for financial issues is like blaming gravity for a plane crash. Its omnipresent. The trick is having institutions that accommodate for it.

I don't think we'll have a season, no. And i'm pretty bothered about it considering the state of the Rangers right now.

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11-24-2012, 12:31 PM
  #595
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I have a hard time believing that we will lose another season. There's too much financial pressure to make a deal. They are just going to wait until the last possible moment to get it done.

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Old
11-24-2012, 12:44 PM
  #596
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I have a hard time believing that we will lose another season. There's too much financial pressure to make a deal. They are just going to wait until the last possible moment to get it done.
The last possible moment should have been before the start of a full 82-game season. We're now in a contest to see who can hold their breath the longest so they can say they "won" something. The only losers are the fans.

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Old
11-24-2012, 12:52 PM
  #597
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Don't think we're seeing hockey before January 1st, if we do at all. Said all along they'd strike a deal in mid December and drop the puck at the start of the new year. Gonna stick with it because the Rangers are all I have sports wise with the Mets and Jets. I really don't think they would be stupid enough to cancel another season but the NHL goes above and beyond whenever I think they can't get any dumber.

If January 1st comes and there's no deal, I want the season cancelled. I'd like at least a somewhat respectable number of games in a season. If they start January 1st, they could probably get in a good 50-55 games or so. Anything less is just ridiculous.

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11-24-2012, 12:53 PM
  #598
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Blaming greed for financial issues is like blaming gravity for a plane crash. Its omnipresent. The trick is having institutions that accommodate for it.

I don't think we'll have a season, no. And i'm pretty bothered about it considering the state of the Rangers right now.
I don't think greed is the NHL's problem. A grasp of reality. Perspective. An understanding of what works as a business and what does not. The owners, commissioner, players, consultants. None of these folks know how to make the enterprise in which they work viable.

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11-24-2012, 12:56 PM
  #599
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The stubbornness and egos on both sides is what's bringing this down. On core economics, they're $182 million off of each other over the course of the PA's proposed CBA. The NHL turned it down instantly and proceeded to cancel another two weeks of games. Bettman said the NHL is losing $18-$20 million daily with these cancellations. Over two weeks that equals $252-$280 million. I don't understand their thinking. Get rid of the PA's guaranteed share nonsense and split the difference on make whole. Instead, they're going to argue over $1.213 million per team per year and destroy future business to a level that's never done before.

Obviously collective bargaining isn't as simple as I make it out to be but what's going on truly makes no sense.

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11-24-2012, 01:02 PM
  #600
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The stubbornness and egos on both sides is what's bringing this down. On core economics, they're $182 million off of each other over the course of the PA's proposed CBA. The NHL turned it down instantly and proceeded to cancel another two weeks of games. Bettman said the NHL is losing $18-$20 million daily with these cancellations. Over two weeks that equals $252-$280 million. I don't understand their thinking. Get rid of the PA's guaranteed share nonsense and split the difference on make whole. Instead, they're going to argue over $1.213 million per team per year and destroy future business to a level that's never done before.

Obviously collective bargaining isn't as simple as I make it out to be but what's going on truly makes no sense.
When things no longer makes sense in a business, it's time to recognize that you have fundamental problems. None of the folks involved seem prepared to deal with that.

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