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CBA Negotiations III: Why Can't We All Just...Get Along?

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Old
11-21-2012, 04:10 PM
  #51
CootaRoo
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The true humor will be the fact that Donny will walk away smelling like roses after his "win" as both the league and his misted PA zombies burn behind him.

Just like baseball...

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11-21-2012, 06:21 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CootaRoo View Post
The true humor will be the fact that Donny will walk away smelling like roses after his "win" as both the league and his misted PA zombies burn behind him.

Just like baseball...
You mean the sport that hasn't had a work stoppage since he left?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
Joe Yerdon ‏@JoeYerdonPHT
Hoo boy. RT @JoshYohe_Trib: Angry fan jumps Bettman press conference. Crazy stuff.

Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
Bettman now in a discussion with a fan...cameras rolling. Tells fan the union hasn't been willing to negotiate.


Josh Yohe ‏@JoshYohe_Trib

Fan who confronted Bettman: Jaymes Hall from Lancaster PA. Flyers fan. Bettman actually handled it well.

in b4 classless flyers fans
That makes me so proud as a Flyers fan.

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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
I am sure @mouthpieceforBettman I mean Darren Dreger has to say.
Speaking of clowns. thats what Dreger is.


edit: Mckenzie has a multi tweet mention of the NHLPA's latest proposal. He ended it with this.

Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie
But if we don't get a negotiation out of this, we never will. OK, I'm done now. Back to your regularly scheduled nonsense.

I agree with him. if the NHL completely rejects the latest proposal we are done for the year. But hey its only the NHL who makes concessions right?
Dreger has become an embarrassment. He doesn't even pretend not to be a shill.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 11-21-2012 at 06:50 PM. Reason: Merged to tidy up
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Old
11-21-2012, 06:28 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CootaRoo View Post
Except every PA offer tabled to date has included immediate raises to their split - some even as high as 65% (like that hilariously unprofessional scratch paper proposal from awhile back).

Today's offer didn't have an immediate raise in it, but it did have a guarantee that the dollar split wouldn't decrease - essentially causing players to consume 0% of the risk of league depreciation from the lockout that they caused by refusing to negotiate until it was enacted. So... in a very, very, very loose definition of the term, I suppose you can call that a "step forward".
They want it immediately raised now because they're dropping down to 50% over time. The short term bonus is payment for getting paid proportionally less from here on out. What's wrong with that? The league wants a bigger share, it's normal to expect them to give something to get that. Right now they really aren't giving anything.

It's certainly no crazier than the NHL's attempts to not honor the contracts they signed; I find it hard to consider the NHL's willingness to honor those contracts an actual concession...one would think that would just be a given. Leipold is the biggest jaw-dropper on that front.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CootaRoo View Post
The true humor will be the fact that Donny will walk away smelling like roses after his "win" as both the league and his misted PA zombies burn behind him.

Just like baseball...
Let's be realistic: Bettman is equally to blame. He's given us yet another lockout to save the future of the league...after two other lockouts that were supposed to save the future of the league (They didn't). Comparing the last two lockouts I see no reason to believe this one will provide a more concrete "solution" than the others, and we'll be having another one when the struggling teams continue to struggle as the richest teams just pocket more money. As long as Bettman is commisioner there won't be a real, long term solution to the owners' problems. He was brought in after the 92 strike to carve flesh out of the players; as long as he and his backers consider that the best solution to the NHL's problems we are going to continue seeing lockouts. It won't matter when negotiation starts, either; the players will balk and hold out as usual until they end up locked out again.

The players brought in Fehr to defend themselves from Bettman. As long as Fehr is around to stonewall Bettman, and vice versa...well, we and the league are screwed. They'll both drive this into the ground, with the coalition of 8 hardline owners pulling Bettman's sleigh towards oblivion. Fehr doesn't need anyone to pull his sleigh, he does well enough crashing it on his own if nobody stops him.

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Old
11-21-2012, 06:53 PM
  #54
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Can we direct the conversation back to Mars Attacks?

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Old
11-21-2012, 07:03 PM
  #55
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Something to consider: at least since the NHL/WHA merger, the NHL seems like it can be split roughly in half; there's the teams that make money, and the teams that don't. On both sides of that division you have the big cash cows that pull in tons of money, and the pits that are losing it rapidly. Going back through the 80s there are always teams that are perpetually threatened by relocation or folding. That problem predates Bettman, but under his watch it certainly hasn't been fixed.

50ish years ago the NFL wasn't terribly different. From what I can find in my 15 minutes of searching, it was actually remarkably similar. The difference? Their owners bit the bullet and set up unprecedented revenue sharing that propped up the struggling teams and stabilized the league. The NHL has been unstable for years, and nothing is changing, so it will remain unstable. This league needs stability to grow and prosper. The owners need to look into NFL style revenue sharing to try and bring that stability...on top of that, they probably wouldn't need to wring money out of the players twice a decade to provide relief to struggling teams and further line the pockets of the wealthy teams.

It's worth a shot. Too bad there's practically zero indication it will happen


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Can we direct the conversation back to Mars Attacks?
Ack. Ack Ack.

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Old
11-21-2012, 07:42 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Can we direct the conversation back to Mars Attacks?
I'm going to direct it to Game 6 of the 1987 Finals currently airing on Comcast's Philly Sports Classics.

A time when money didn't pollute the game like it does today and players still played for the love of the game and the owners owned for the love of the game.

It's amazing watching the game and remembering that era when I was a teen. Amazing seeing no corporate advertising on the ice or along the boards. Amazing to see the spectrum crowd which was comprised of real fans not priced out of the game like they are today by corporate shills....

Eff this strike and eff the owners and players. They are ruining this game more and more... all because of money and greed.

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Old
11-21-2012, 11:10 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
They want it immediately raised now because they're dropping down to 50% over time. The short term bonus is payment for getting paid proportionally less from here on out. What's wrong with that? The league wants a bigger share, it's normal to expect them to give something to get that. Right now they really aren't giving anything.
And take on more water? Seems silly to take in more water as part of the solution.

Quote:
It's certainly no crazier than the NHL's attempts to not honor the contracts they signed
I'm tired of this. Contracts are defined by the CBA. What you see isn't necessarily what you get.

Quote:
The owners need to look into NFL style revenue sharing to try and bring that stability...on top of that, they probably wouldn't need to wring money out of the players twice a decade to provide relief to struggling teams and further line the pockets of the wealthy teams.
The big owners aren't for revenue sharing and I don't blame them. It is a socialistic idea-- not the sexiest idea to capitalists who know they aren't operating on NFL type earnings (which would make sharing easier to swallow). Contraction won't happen, either. Moving a team is more viable.

Hammer out fair salaries once and for all and hopefully it will cease to be an issue so as to avoid screwing with the players.

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Old
11-22-2012, 12:49 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Can we direct the conversation back to Mars Attacks?
This.
Maybe we can talk about NCAA hockey as well. or junior hockey in Canada.
Anything but this mindless game being played out by the NHLPA, Fehr, Bettman and the owners.
Speaking of non NHL hockey. Watched a bit on the 1980 US hockey team on youtube. Just about cried watching that. How awesome that was.


Last edited by GoneFullHextall: 11-22-2012 at 01:09 AM.
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Old
11-22-2012, 01:03 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
And take on more water? Seems silly to take in more water as part of the solution.
The owners aren't giving them anything else as compensation or incentive.



Quote:
I'm tired of this. Contracts are defined by the CBA. What you see isn't necessarily what you get.
That's cool and all, but the players are certainly pissed about the big contracts handed out this summer some owners apparently negotiated in bad faith. Hard to blame the players for being pissed off.



Quote:
The big owners aren't for revenue sharing and I don't blame them. It is a socialistic idea-- not the sexiest idea to capitalists who know they aren't operating on NFL type earnings (which would make sharing easier to swallow). Contraction won't happen, either. Moving a team is more viable.
The NFL wasn't running on "NFL earnings" when they began their revenue sharing plan. Hell, NCAA football was bigger in quite a few regional areas at the time. The stability that plan brought has helped the NFL grow into what it is now; also, instead of a bunch of individuals only caring about maximizing their own profit, it suddenly became in their interest for owners to see other owners do as well as possible too.

And you're right. While it might be best for the NHL as a whole, it would be a long time before revenues match what the big owners currently make. They have no incentive to go for it, and the little owners don't have the numbers to force it on the big money guys. So it's just a pipe dream that won't happen. The rich will remain rich, the poor will continue dragging the league down...just like they have the last 3ish decades.

Phoenix absolutely needs to be moved. That team needed to be moved yesterday at the latest.

Quote:
Hammer out fair salaries once and for all and hopefully it will cease to be an issue so as to avoid screwing with the players.
I doubt it. The cap failed to solve what it was supposed to. Reducing player share alone won't either (it's essentially the same thing all over again), unless the league sees a huge boost in income. For best results we'd need to see better revenue sharing to go along with the reduced player share.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 11-22-2012 at 01:10 AM.
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Old
11-22-2012, 01:01 PM
  #60
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doesn't there have to be a casualty besides hockey in all this, and doesn't it have to be Gary Bettman?

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Old
11-23-2012, 07:59 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
You mean the sport that hasn't had a work stoppage since he left?
I want to respond to this, but I can't imagine it was actually a serious comment because of how extraordinarily (off the charts levels, really) disinegenous it is.

So, for now, I'm assuming this is like Lucy setting the football up for Charlie Brown and I'll choose to not go for the kick - as enticing as it may seem.

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Old
11-23-2012, 08:16 AM
  #62
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Link to Ryan Miller's thoughts on decertifying the union:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle5578329/


Last edited by CSKA1974: 11-23-2012 at 08:30 AM.
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Old
11-23-2012, 08:53 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
I'm tired of this. Contracts are defined by the CBA. What you see isn't necessarily what you get.
True, though in the absence of a CBA, the contracts are both valid and enforceable. It isn't quite as simple as you are suggesting.

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Old
11-23-2012, 12:41 PM
  #64
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Gonna need a miracle for this one. Games cancelled through the 14th.

Quote:
The National Hockey League is expected to announce the cancellation of more regular-season games through Dec. 14 later today, as a result of the current NHL lockout.

...


The 2013 NHL All-Star Scheduled, scheduled Jan. 26-27 in Columbus, is also expected to be cancelled later today.
http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/nhl121123.html

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Old
11-23-2012, 02:51 PM
  #65
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Gonna need a miracle for this one. Games cancelled through the 14th.



http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/nhl121123.html
so you can add into that the Xmas/new years break, and that takes us into Jan. now.

i cant beleive we are actualy gunna lose this entire season..

GODAMMIT !!!

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11-23-2012, 05:01 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
Something to consider: at least since the NHL/WHA merger, the NHL seems like it can be split roughly in half; there's the teams that make money, and the teams that don't. On both sides of that division you have the big cash cows that pull in tons of money, and the pits that are losing it rapidly. Going back through the 80s there are always teams that are perpetually threatened by relocation or folding. That problem predates Bettman, but under his watch it certainly hasn't been fixed.

50ish years ago the NFL wasn't terribly different. From what I can find in my 15 minutes of searching, it was actually remarkably similar. The difference? Their owners bit the bullet and set up unprecedented revenue sharing that propped up the struggling teams and stabilized the league. The NHL has been unstable for years, and nothing is changing, so it will remain unstable. This league needs stability to grow and prosper. The owners need to look into NFL style revenue sharing to try and bring that stability...on top of that, they probably wouldn't need to wring money out of the players twice a decade to provide relief to struggling teams and further line the pockets of the wealthy teams.

It's worth a shot. Too bad there's practically zero indication it will happen




Ack. Ack Ack.
Something you might want to consider is the NFL doesn't have guarenteed contracts. I wonder if the NHLPA would agree to that.

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Old
11-23-2012, 05:09 PM
  #67
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I brought this up in an earlier thread and then kind of went off the grid for a couple days so I don't know what the response was, but has there been any discussion of decertifying like the NFLPA did to try and leverage a deal? Dreger tweeted something about decertifying the other day but it was only mentioned in passing, not sure if it was in regards to any plans the NHLPA had.

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Old
11-23-2012, 05:46 PM
  #68
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so you can add into that the Xmas/new years break, and that takes us into Jan. now.

i cant beleive we are actualy gunna lose this entire season..GODAMMIT !!!

This is just a friggin shame. What a class act the NHL is. To think we may lose another season after what happened not that long ago is very frustrating to say the least. No wonder this sport gets no respect by the other three leagues. The union very well may be in trouble the longer this goes. More and more players are going to voice their opinion and that is not good as far as negotiations are concerned. Oh well this just sucks.

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Old
11-23-2012, 06:02 PM
  #69
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damage gets done every time games are canceled. But does either side care? Sure doesnt look like it.
As its been said before, no matter how long this last both sides know the fans will come back and sell out buildings, buy NHL jerseys, hats ect.
So they sit back and try and squeeze every damn nickle they can all the while the clock is ticking on the season and deep down there is little urgency on getting a deal done.
At this point I am beginning not to give a ****. they dont care about the fans, why should I worry about it anymore.

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11-23-2012, 06:15 PM
  #70
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How history repeats itself

In 1994-95 lockout a Hawk famously crossed line with regards to Bettman

Today ,, A Hawk famously crossed the line of with regards to Bettman

Threatening or wishing for death upon Gary Bettman is a sickening display

My opinion of Cheli nose-dived when he did what he did ,, My opinion of Bolland will never be same

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11-23-2012, 10:17 PM
  #71
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Bettman brings out the worst in pretty much everyone.

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Old
11-24-2012, 07:31 AM
  #72
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How long into next season will this last is what I'm really worried about

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Old
11-24-2012, 08:21 AM
  #73
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How long into next season will this last is what I'm really worried about
If this season is cancelled, zero chance we start on time next year and I honestly believe we miss 2 full years as the union decertifys and the NHL as we know it ceases to exist.

Both sides share equal blame , but Bettman and the owners bully tactics aint gonna work anymore. Good for the players long term, ****ing horrible for the fans.

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11-24-2012, 08:43 AM
  #74
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decertification i think could be on the horizon.

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11-24-2012, 08:46 AM
  #75
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decertification i think could be on the horizon.
The 6 teams this lockout is for would fold in a year. No cap and no rules, they could have 20 mill payrolls , while others have 100 mill payrolls.

5 years from now it would be worth it, get rid of **** markets and the Jody Shelley and Matt Walkers of the NHL, but the next few years destroys the NHL.

And this will show what Gary's true intentions are, if it ever gets to that level it proves he has no intentions on signing a new CBA

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