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Ovi can't even light up the KHL, can we finally admit that he's past his prime?

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Old
11-23-2012, 04:47 PM
  #476
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Originally Posted by Jeff_Dyck_#1 View Post


Wasn't Backstrom supposed to be #99 not #69?

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11-23-2012, 05:00 PM
  #477
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these games in the khl or other euro leagues are very likely being played closer to nhl preseason levels than nhl regular season levels.


"Ignorance is Bliss"

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11-23-2012, 05:21 PM
  #478
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All I saw in this video is how dominant Backstrom is, doing all the work and essentially setting Ovi up for easy tapins.

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11-23-2012, 06:45 PM
  #479
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This is an interesting thread. I'm surprised at the number of people defending the KHL. All I can say is enjoy it while you can—the league is economically not tenable and will not exist in it's present form in ten years.

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11-23-2012, 06:52 PM
  #480
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Originally Posted by Hollywood Burrows View Post
This is an interesting thread. I'm surprised at the number of people defending the KHL. All I can say is enjoy it while you can—the league is economically not tenable and will not exist in it's present form in ten years.
And the NHL deliberately drives its fans away by canceling its season every time a CBA expires. I'd laugh if it wasn't so depressing.

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11-23-2012, 07:00 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by Hollywood Burrows View Post
This is an interesting thread. I'm surprised at the number of people defending the KHL. All I can say is enjoy it while you can—the league is economically not tenable and will not exist in it's present form in ten years.
Most of European sport leagues are run in the same manner.

Tell me, has European soccer proven to be economically not tenable despite using the same business model?

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11-23-2012, 07:02 PM
  #482
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Besides, as long as more energy -> Russian economy growing -> more money for sport/recreation then I think the KHL will be ok.

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11-23-2012, 07:26 PM
  #483
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That's exactly what I'm talking about. Believe it or not the world isn't NA. Their "careers" doesn't matter much when they have a chance to play at home. The NHL is a foreign, far awy league where they earn their money unless some Bettman orchestrates just another lockout. Why should they care more about the NHL than about playing in front of their countrymen?
Who, other than you, is talking about NA "being the world?" This is about business, not nationalism, so leave whatever jingoistic issues you have out of the discussion. Russian NHLers currently in the KHL are only there because of the lockout. If it was all about their countrymen, wouldn't they have chosen the KHL over the NHL, instead of ending up there by default, on temporary contracts? It's obviously a temporary situation.

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11-23-2012, 07:42 PM
  #484
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a couple of things. khl hockey is big sheet euro hockey. right? there are going to be solid nhl players like perhaps kane that cant translate their game to the euro style.

i think its also fair to suggest that top nhl players are not playing the same intense game that they do in the nhl. we already know that they play a different game in the stanley cup playoffs than in the nhl regular season. these games in the khl or other euro leagues are very likely being played closer to nhl preseason levels than nhl regular season levels.

that means there are players in these games that have something to proves. marginal players are trying to earn a shot at something in the nhl while the established nhl player is very likely NOT giving away any secrets in games that dont count for them.
Have you watched any of the KHL games yet? If anything, your statements here are completely false. You're suggesting that NHL players (especially top stars) are just coasting; and that couldn't be farther from the truth.

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11-23-2012, 11:06 PM
  #485
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It's a different league, and it's an inferior league to the NHL, there's no hockey person of even average intelligence that will debate that. If you'd like to, please go ahead, there's no shortage of posters that will indulge you.
Let's dwell on it. Everbody easily uses this term like general assumption without elaboration. So what does it mean. Let's take NHL infrastructure, business model, stadiums, TV contracts, marketing, show and so on. This side of NHL is far ahead of KHL. Nobody argues about that. But level of hockey is close. Yes the best players, like Malkin, Dats, Crosby etc play in the NHL. But put them aside and such skills of an average player like stick dangling, vision, passes would be higher in K. Those components like physical play, shoots, checking higher in the NHL.
I like to watch skillful offensive players. I have watched a lot of NHL and KHL games. It's much more enjoyable to watch Metallurg Magnotogorsk, Avangard Omsk, Pittsburgh, Detroit than Columbus, Boston, Vityaz, Avtomobilist (still have no idea why Lupul moved to Avto) etc.

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11-23-2012, 11:22 PM
  #486
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
I doubt that Mikael Grabner, playin in Austria or Tavares/Streit is Switzerland are playing as hard as they would in the NHL.
Don't compare Austria and Swiss leagues with the KHL. There's a big difference. Everybody knows that.

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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
What you're saying (and correct me if I've misunderstood) is that RUSSIAN players, playing in the KHL, are definitely trying their best because it's their HOME country. Correct?

So, Ovechkin, Malkin, Kovalchuk, Datsyuk are likely playing their hardest in the KHL - that I also question.
That shows that you haven't seen them in the KHL or just highlights. So, why are you trying to dwell on this questions?

You sound like if Kane wanted he could easily elevate his game and be number 1 in the KHL, but he just didn't want.
The skilful player will always succeed in the KHL. Backstrom is another proof of this statement.


Last edited by od71: 11-24-2012 at 12:06 AM.
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11-23-2012, 11:45 PM
  #487
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Originally Posted by UCantHandleMyRiddum View Post
All I saw in this video is how dominant Backstrom is, doing all the work and essentially setting Ovi up for easy tapins.
Lady, why does Ovi excite your mind so much? I'm a little bit jealous.

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11-24-2012, 12:08 AM
  #488
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Originally Posted by UCantHandleMyRiddum View Post
All I saw in this video is how dominant Backstrom is, doing all the work and essentially setting Ovi up for easy tapins.
Haha, dude, yet again you've shown to everyone how well-founded your arguments are
The two videos show three plays. The first one shows Backstrom taking a normal shot, which is deflected to Komarov, who then makes a nice play and pass to Ovechkin for the tap-in. The second one shows Backstrom making a great play along the boards, and then feeding a sweet pass to Ovechkin. The latter then also stickhandles niftily (inferior to Backstrom's, of course) and passes the puck to Komarov for the tap-in. Finally, the last play shows Backstrom himself getting set up for an easy tap-in.

But, bravo, sir, I'm sure you've done wonders for yourself being taken seriously with the comment you made

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11-24-2012, 08:58 AM
  #489
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Haha, dude, yet again you've shown to everyone how well-founded your arguments are
The two videos show three plays. The first one shows Backstrom taking a normal shot, which is deflected to Komarov, who then makes a nice play and pass to Ovechkin for the tap-in. The second one shows Backstrom making a great play along the boards, and then feeding a sweet pass to Ovechkin. The latter then also stickhandles niftily (inferior to Backstrom's, of course) and passes the puck to Komarov for the tap-in. Finally, the last play shows Backstrom himself getting set up for an easy tap-in.

But, bravo, sir, I'm sure you've done wonders for yourself being taken seriously with the comment you made
I remember when people would say "Ovi doesn't anyone to produce points, he could play with tomato cans and still get 50+Goals and 50+Assists"... that statement used to be true because Prime Ovi was a beast. But now that he's regressed, it's not. These days, people blame his lack of production on teammates, system etc... anything but the fact that he just isn't as good.

The guy has been playing pro hockey for almost 10 years, that is a lot hockey. And there aren't too many guys who can even stay at the top for half this long.

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11-24-2012, 10:08 AM
  #490
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Originally Posted by UCantHandleMyRiddum View Post
All I saw in this video is how dominant Backstrom is, doing all the work and essentially setting Ovi up for easy tapins.
Backstroms been the best player on the Caps since 08-09 so it's not surprising. Most underrated player in the league IMO. Many people think he just gets all his points off Ovechkin, which is completely false.

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11-24-2012, 01:24 PM
  #491
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You sound like if Kane wanted he could easily elevate his game and be number 1 in the KHL, but he just didn't want.
The skilful player will always succeed in the KHL. Backstrom is another proof of this statement.
Backstrom would succeed on Neptune, kid's a star player in any league.

I made no mention of Kane whatsoever. I have no idea what happened with him, be it skill, attitude, whatever. He's a very skilled player, already a success in the NHL, one of the fastest player in the world, good size, I'm pretty sure he could compete in any league if he wanted to.

But I made the point that not every player could succeed in every league. Mattias Weinhandl was a disaster in the NHL and in International play, but a star in Europe. Jorgen Jonsson is another example.

That doesn't mean anything though. On the same team, fringe "skilled" players wouldn't get the ice time to put up points because their game is so flawed in other areas. Like Linus Omark. There were better options on NHL rosters, that simple.

Zherdev can dangle but if he couldn't crack the top six in the NHL, or play without the puck, he will sit.

The NHL has the best players in the world, the most skilled. But that doesn't mean that 4th liners in the NHL would be able to play in Europe. Different games, different roles. Zherdev is far "better" than Darren Helm or Max Talbot or Jarret Stoll or Chris Kelly - he would out score them in the KHL for sure, but in the NHL, Zherdev isn't good enough to produce offense to compensate for his other weaknesses. The KHL and other European leagues are filled with such players.

Not breaking any major news here. This is obvious stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by od71 View Post
Let's dwell on it. Everbody easily uses this term like general assumption without elaboration. So what does it mean. Let's take NHL infrastructure, business model, stadiums, TV contracts, marketing, show and so on. This side of NHL is far ahead of KHL. Nobody argues about that. But level of hockey is close. Yes the best players, like Malkin, Dats, Crosby etc play in the NHL. But put them aside and such skills of an average player like stick dangling, vision, passes would be higher in K. Those components like physical play, shoots, checking higher in the NHL.
I like to watch skillful offensive players. I have watched a lot of NHL and KHL games. It's much more enjoyable to watch Metallurg Magnotogorsk, Avangard Omsk, Pittsburgh, Detroit than Columbus, Boston, Vityaz, Avtomobilist (still have no idea why Lupul moved to Avto) etc.
What is enjoyable from a style of play has nothing to do with what league is better, in terms of player quality. Are you suggesting the NHL markets itself better and that's why they attract better players? I don't see the point.

But you have made the same point that I have, that the best (most skilled) players, play in the NHL. It's THOSE VERY PLAYERS that make the NHL game far superior. It's the top 10-15% of players that define the league. The rest are pretty interchangeable, as I've said before.

Rob Schemp is one of the most skilled players I've ever seen. Jeff Tambellini has one of the best wrist shots in the world. Let's not confuse puck skills with who's a better hockey player. Ryan Callahan, Ryan Smyth, won't win many skills competition but have played on the highest hockey levels in the world.

I have no issue with other leagues and don't doubt the talent level in the KHL or SEL...but please don't try and compare them to the NHL because it's not close.

The NHL has a different style of bottom six player, much bigger and more physical than other leagues, they are role players designed to try and defend against the elite players. But even these players are highly skilled. I played against some former "goon" type NHL players and the skill level they possess is off the charts, even those who don't score 10 goals per year.

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11-24-2012, 03:20 PM
  #492
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Most of European sport leagues are run in the same manner.

Tell me, has European soccer proven to be economically not tenable despite using the same business model?
Attendance levels for euro soccer likely embarrass khl attendance levels.

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11-24-2012, 03:36 PM
  #493
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Attendance levels for euro soccer likely embarrass khl attendance levels.
They do, but there are not many clubs in the top four soccer leagues in Europe that are making a profit. Do you think Chelsea somehow, magically, started to net $200 million more per season when Abramovich bought them?

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11-24-2012, 03:39 PM
  #494
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
Backstrom would succeed on Neptune, kid's a star player in any league.

I made no mention of Kane whatsoever. I have no idea what happened with him, be it skill, attitude, whatever. He's a very skilled player, already a success in the NHL, one of the fastest player in the world, good size, I'm pretty sure he could compete in any league if he wanted to.

But I made the point that not every player could succeed in every league. Mattias Weinhandl was a disaster in the NHL and in International play, but a star in Europe. Jorgen Jonsson is another example.

That doesn't mean anything though. On the same team, fringe "skilled" players wouldn't get the ice time to put up points because their game is so flawed in other areas. Like Linus Omark. There were better options on NHL rosters, that simple.

Zherdev can dangle but if he couldn't crack the top six in the NHL, or play without the puck, he will sit.

The NHL has the best players in the world, the most skilled. But that doesn't mean that 4th liners in the NHL would be able to play in Europe. Different games, different roles. Zherdev is far "better" than Darren Helm or Max Talbot or Jarret Stoll or Chris Kelly - he would out score them in the KHL for sure, but in the NHL, Zherdev isn't good enough to produce offense to compensate for his other weaknesses. The KHL and other European leagues are filled with such players.

Not breaking any major news here. This is obvious stuff.



What is enjoyable from a style of play has nothing to do with what league is better, in terms of player quality. Are you suggesting the NHL markets itself better and that's why they attract better players? I don't see the point.

But you have made the same point that I have, that the best (most skilled) players, play in the NHL. It's THOSE VERY PLAYERS that make the NHL game far superior. It's the top 10-15% of players that define the league. The rest are pretty interchangeable, as I've said before.

Rob Schemp is one of the most skilled players I've ever seen. Jeff Tambellini has one of the best wrist shots in the world. Let's not confuse puck skills with who's a better hockey player. Ryan Callahan, Ryan Smyth, won't win many skills competition but have played on the highest hockey levels in the world.

I have no issue with other leagues and don't doubt the talent level in the KHL or SEL...but please don't try and compare them to the NHL because it's not close.

The NHL has a different style of bottom six player, much bigger and more physical than other leagues, they are role players designed to try and defend against the elite players. But even these players are highly skilled. I played against some former "goon" type NHL players and the skill level they possess is off the charts, even those who don't score 10 goals per year.
Kane isn't as skilled as you give him credit for. He's skilled for the NHL but not really skilled enough to succeed on big ice. He's good at the north/south grinding physical game of the NHL but not all that good at the open ice, cycling, finesse game of the KHL. There's a reason Team Canada doesn't win the World Championships on European ice even with a team of all stars/borderline all stars/good depth roles most years.

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11-24-2012, 03:42 PM
  #495
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Kane isn't as skilled as you give him credit for. He's skilled for the NHL but not really skilled enough to succeed on big ice. He's good at the north/south grinding physical game of the NHL but not all that good at the open ice, cycling, finesse game of the KHL. There's a reason Team Canada doesn't win the World Championships on European ice even with a team of all stars/borderline all stars/good depth roles most years.
Nope, according to Red Bull the reason they don't win because the World Championship is simply a vacation for the players who missed the playoffs.

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Attendance levels for euro soccer likely embarrass khl attendance levels.
Just like the attendance for European soccer embarrass that of the National Hockey Leagues's attendance levels. Soccer is not only played in gargantuan stadiums but alongside Cricket, is the most popular spot in the entire world.

So.. whats your point?


Last edited by HockeyThoughts: 11-24-2012 at 03:48 PM.
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11-24-2012, 06:18 PM
  #496
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Attendance levels for euro soccer likely embarrass khl attendance levels.
Premiere lueagu only had 13m spectators last season, the NHL had 21m...

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11-24-2012, 06:28 PM
  #497
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Premiere lueagu only had 13m spectators last season, the NHL had 21m...
err yeah, but every NHL team plays 82 games a year ... not 35 or 40, and the league has 20 teams, not 30

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11-24-2012, 06:38 PM
  #498
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Backstroms been the best player on the Caps since 08-09 so it's not surprising. Most underrated player in the league IMO. Many people think he just gets all his points off Ovechkin, which is completely false.
This is coming from a guy who's clearly a die hard Caps fan.

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11-24-2012, 07:10 PM
  #499
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I made no mention of Kane whatsoever. I have no idea what happened with him, be it skill, attitude, whatever. He's a very skilled player, already a success in the NHL, one of the fastest player in the world, good size, I'm pretty sure he could compete in any league if he wanted to.

But you have made the same point that I have, that the best (most skilled) players, play in the NHL. It's THOSE VERY PLAYERS that make the NHL game far superior. It's the top 10-15% of players that define the league. The rest are pretty interchangeable, as I've said before.

I have no issue with other leagues and don't doubt the talent level in the KHL but please don't try and compare them to the NHL because it's not close.
10-15% is about 70-100 players. It's exaggeration. I talked about players that dominate both in the KHL and the NHL. It was proven during lockouts current and previous, there are few of them. Even those mentioned above generational talents like Malkin, my favourite player, he was brought up on european rinks, sometimes fails. Obviously there are KHL players that can defend against the elite players too. And currently, I have to admit, that Geno is not even the best player in Metallurg Magnitogorsk.

It's not just about the Kane. In 2004-2005 a lot of elite NHL players failed in Russia too. LeCavalier, Heatley, Covi, Alex Kovalev, Habibulin combined didn't light up the russian league too. What 70-100 dominant players you are talking about?

Take 3 top NHL players of the last season. About Malkin we have already talked. Giroux, yes, can be good in the K, he can adjust, I see it. But I doubt about Stamkos. He is not as complete player as Giroux. I wish I'm wrong about Stamkos. He is a NHL star.

You live in your own NHL world. But there is a world outside too.


Last edited by od71: 11-24-2012 at 07:28 PM.
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11-24-2012, 07:20 PM
  #500
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err yeah, but every NHL team plays 82 games a year ... not 35 or 40, and the league has 20 teams, not 30
Good point. The EPL would get 43m in total attendance assuming 82 games and 30 teams.

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