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Round 2, Vote 4 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Old
11-24-2012, 09:28 AM
  #301
Theokritos
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Jiř Holeček didn't win a domestic championship and was still considered the best goaltender and one of the very best players in the league. Check out the Zlata Hokejka (Golden Stick) record. I don't know why anyone would doubt his domestic resume.

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11-24-2012, 10:05 AM
  #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I'm not sure if you can answer this given how abstract the question is. But how good was the Czech League at this time? Are we talking about a league with a lot of frosting but no cake? Elite talent at the very top (that we saw in international play) and then mediocre talent below it? That's sort of what I was getting at previously when I asked about who Holecek was competing against for notoriety in this league...
The difference between top team (first Brno, than Jihlava) was smaller than in Soviet league, but was still big enough to give them 1st spot most of the time. Other teams had national team member here and there (neither Dzurilla nor Holecek played for those powerhouse teams). They had chance to win first spot (atleast those that were just bellow nr1 team), but it was usually surprise.

Also there were no play-offs most of the time, which made it easier for stacked team to win.


Last edited by lamini: 11-24-2012 at 10:17 AM.
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11-24-2012, 10:18 AM
  #303
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Substance

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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
Jiř Holeček didn't win a domestic championship and was still considered the best goaltender and one of the very best players in the league. Check out the Zlata Hokejka (Golden Stick) record. I don't know why anyone would doubt his domestic resume.
Provide substance to the Zlata Hokejka.

Criteria, voters, transperency of the process, counter-balancing factors, such as ASTs, Best Defenseman, Best Forward and other awards/honours in the Czechoslovakian domestic leageu that will provide a more complete picture. Significant considerations would be the number of voters, who they were, the timing of the voting, nature of the ballot, weight of each ballot or slot on the ballot.

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11-24-2012, 10:35 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Bottom line is that Jiri Holecek's domestic career was not accurately presented for consideration by the panel. His International career outside North America has a few impressive moments balanced by less impressive moments - 1972 and 1976 Olympics, 1978 WHC - losing the final at home amongst others. Overall a weak shadow of Tretiak on the domestic and international scene.

Almost a zero in North America. Testimony of his own coaches actions.1976 Canada Cup, Karel Gut pulled him faster than even Mike Keenan pulled his goalies.
Your first sentence suggests that you've got a fair portrayal of Holecek's domestic career (otherwise, how would you know that it's unfair) (You also make it sound like it was done deliberately).

What information (facts, not opinions) do you feel has been held back about his domestic career?

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11-24-2012, 10:36 AM
  #305
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I guess one way to compare the quality between european leagues is European cup which was official IIHF tournament for league winners. Of course its bit unfair because in USSR most of the talent was packed in one team.

Here is link starting from 1970-1971.
http://www.passionhockey.com/hockeya...Europe1971.htm

Then there was lot of other team tournaments where many teams from Europe and some NA teams competed. Its hard to say was there real stakes in some of these tournaments or did they take it purely as rehearsal.

Starting from 1970-1971
http://www.passionhockey.com/hockeya...amical1971.htm

edited. Have to admit that this is going now quite far from the topic and there is other goalies than Holecek in this round and im not even a voter so sorry if Im derailing thread.


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11-24-2012, 11:13 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Your first sentence suggests that you've got a fair portrayal of Holecek's domestic career (otherwise, how would you know that it's unfair) (You also make it sound like it was done deliberately).

What information (facts, not opinions) do you feel has been held back about his domestic career?
Post #303 outlines what substantive information has not been presented.

The post quoted is about accuracy as in depth or completeness of research, not fairness or unfairness.

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11-24-2012, 11:14 AM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Post #303 outlines what substantive information has not been presented.

The post quoted is about accuracy as in depth or completeness of research, not fairness or unfairness.
Unless you have that information, then how do you know that the information has been "held back"?

I don't see the information in post #303 - I see a wish list.

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11-24-2012, 12:57 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post

Huh? Martinec only played one season on Jihlava, Nov two seasons. Please tell me about the improved stats.
From memory, Novy generally outscored Martinec in the domestic league but finished behind him in Golden Stick voting. One reason given was that Novy played for dynasty quality teams. Martinec's only domestic goal scoring title (which was his 4th Golden Stick year) was his one season for Jihlava when he was aging.

This is off-topic, so if you want more info, it should be out there via the search function.

Quote:
Unfortunately the sources you name are wrong here. Holeček never played for Jihlava. He did play for Sparta Prague, but they didn't win a championship during that period. Neither did Holeček's former team Koice win anything.
See that now. There's a reason I didn't cite Pelletier earlier. Chidlovski is generally considered the best English-language resource for 70s Soviet hockey in the internet, but it seems he doesn't have his facts straight when it comes to other European nations.

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11-24-2012, 12:59 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I'm not sure if you can answer this given how abstract the question is. But how good was the Czech League at this time? Are we talking about a league with a lot of frosting but no cake? Elite talent at the very top (that we saw in international play) and then mediocre talent below it? That's sort of what I was getting at previously when I asked about who Holecek was competing against for notoriety in this league...
Based on their head to head records in international play, it was almost as good as the Soviet league on top.

I doubt that depth was that impressive (but neither was the Soviet depth compared to the NHL), but we aren't talking about depth players here - just the stars.

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11-24-2012, 01:06 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Bottom line is that Jiri Holecek's domestic career was not accurately presented for consideration by the panel..
The only thing inaccurate was the "information" from chidlovski's site which was quickly refuted.

What's a more productive use of time? Searching for information and posting it to see if it stands up to scrutiny? Or comparing the World Championships to the Harlem Globetrotters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Provide substance to the Zlata Hokejka.

Criteria, voters, transperency of the process, counter-balancing factors, such as ASTs, Best Defenseman, Best Forward and other awards/honours in the Czechoslovakian domestic leageu that will provide a more complete picture. Significant considerations would be the number of voters, who they were, the timing of the voting, nature of the ballot, weight of each ballot or slot on the ballot.
The domestic All Star Teams were presented upthread - Holecek was named the All-Star or Best Goalie in the Extraliga 7 of 8 years as determined by TIP magazine. You quoted that post earlier to criticize other parts of it, so I'm sure you saw it.

TheoKritos posted the point totals for the Golden Stick for all goalies down to about 20th place (and I reposted them in the same post where I posted the All-Star/best goalie awards), so there obviously were a fairly significant number of voters. Considering that the Golden Stick was an official award, I would imagine the voters were "experts" of some sort.


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11-24-2012, 02:12 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The domestic All Star Teams were presented upthread - Holecek was named the All-Star or Best Goalie in the Extraliga 7 of 8 years as determined by TIP magazine.
Just wanted to add something to this. Those All Star results are actually also in Finnish hockey books. Bit of OT but the makers of those books send letters after every season to all hockey associations in world and asking them to send their league tables,stats and so on (there is actualy league tables from China,South Africa...). So those were recognized by CSSR hockey association and they werent just made by magazine (because that assumption could be made).

Domestic record of Holecek is in my opinion very strong. There was depht in goalies in CSSR league. Dzurilla, Crha, Marcel Sakac (who actually managed to steal the starter job from Dzurilla in early 70s in Bratislava), Young Kralik, Multiple domestic champion Miroslav Krasa, Veteran legend Nadrchal...

My doubts about Holecek concerns the national team. Its really too harsh say that he was product of CSSR team play but was he really the key player of IMO underrated CSSR team that time?

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11-24-2012, 02:54 PM
  #312
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My doubts about Holecek concerns the national team. Its really too harsh say that he was product of CSSR team play but was he really the key player of IMO underrated CSSR team that time?
Based on the perception of people who watched them play, RW Vladimir Martinec was the star of the Czechoslovak National Team. I'm basing this off WC All Star voting, Golden Stick voting and All-Time lists of Czech experts. Posted in the defensemen project that Czech experts consider Jan Suchy (mostly before Holecek's time), Vladimir Martinec (Holecek's contemporary), Jaromir Jagr, and Dominik Hasek their four best players of all time.

That said, based on the awards both domestic and international, the perception would seem to be that Holecek and then defenseman Frantisek Pospisil were right behind Martinec.

But consider this:

•Sawchuk was never the best player on his team
•Plante was only the best player on his team after he left Montreal
•Hall was behind Bobby Hull and probably Mikita
•Was Tretiak ever the best player on his team? He played behind Kharlamov, Petrov, and Mikhailov both domestically and internationally, then got Maltsev and Vasiliev added to the National Team. In the 80s, those names were replaced by Fetisov, Makarov, and the rest of the Green Unit, again both internationally and domestically.

I think it's certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that Tretiak had a better team in front of him than Holecek. The Czechs were a very good team, but the Soviets were a great team. It would certainly be a double standard to punish Holecek for not being the clear cut best player in Czechoslovakia when Tretiak (who was added already) certainly wasn't the clear cut best Soviet


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11-24-2012, 04:07 PM
  #313
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Based on their head to head records in international play, it was almost as good as the Soviet league on top.

I doubt that depth was that impressive (but neither was the Soviet depth compared to the NHL), but we aren't talking about depth players here - just the stars.
Right...well, what I said was in context of domestic achievements...the depth matters if Holecek wins awards against scrubs...

If the depth of the league and the competition for awards didn't matter, wouldn't Hugh Lehman have already been put up on the big board?

I've been away for the past few days so I have some catching up to do in reading here I admit...but Holecek didn't strike me as particularly good, I watched a team literally add a defenseman to help protect him, and now some issues with his domestic achievements have arisen it seems...this isn't looking so hot...

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11-24-2012, 06:12 PM
  #314
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Here's a European perspective on Holecek. From Evgeny Zyryankin of sports.ru: the best World Championship players of the 1970s.
Via Google Translate:
Quote:
Jiri Golechek (Czechoslovakia)

Years: 1966 - 1967, 1971 - 1978.

Titles: Best goalkeeper World Cup 1971, 1973, 1975, 1976, 1978. World Champion 1972, 1976, 1977

Vladislav Tretiak, undoubtedly the best goalkeeper of the XX century, the hero of Super NHL with professionals, a living legend, the idol of millions, ______________________ (append something from you). But at the World Championships 70-Golechek Holecek it eclipsed, and the USSR national team, shipping Swedes, Finns, Canadians sometimes a dozen goals in meetings with the Czechs hardly scored two or three. The reason for that, of course, not only Jiri, but closed his team's tactics advocated by all five, and yet even in these circumstances, the goalkeeper was always busy working on the throat. Impressive, seemingly incongruous, like centering basketball at the right time, he showed an unexpected plasticity and catch a throw for throw, took them to the far corners, like a magician. He was called a fakir - a surprising property of removing the washer from the trap in a time when everyone is looking for it in the net.

Best tournament. Of the eight world championships, which Golechek been in the seventies, three of his team defeated the Soviet machine, and in his five recognized ideal goalkeeper. Had at six, but in the 72 th prize somehow gave Finn Valtonenu - and he did not understand why. A star for Jiri become championship-76, where he, before the Czechs began early winner, missed seven goals in six matches.

Best match. Originally just from 1972, when Golecheka unjustly deprived prize (in this case in the symbolic team still included). April 20 in the penultimate round pitted the Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia. Both were 16 points, but the Soviet team theoretically suit tie as she outweighed the difference in goals (73-11 vs. 61-12). That evening Jiri played brilliantly. Pierce it could only Alexander Maltsev (the score 0-2) and at the 33 th minute, Valeri Kharlamov (when the score was 1:3). As he wrote later in "Football-Hockey" Gennady Radchuk, "before the last period were all convinced that the 3-2 will not be saved, and he took it and has remained unchanged." Thanks Golecheku.

Alternative: Vladislav Tretiak. He and I will meet again in this series.
Zyryankin appears to have been in his 20s when he wrote this series in 2001, so it's not a contemporary European perspective on Holecek, but it is at least a European perspective.

Here's the piece on the best of the 80s, including Tretiak.
Via Google Translate:
Quote:
Vladislav Tretiak (USSR)

Years: 1970 - 1979, 1981 - 1983.

Titles: Best goalkeeper World Cup 1974, 1979, 1981, 1983. 10-time world champion. The best hockey player in Europe in 1981, 1982, 1983.

In the seventies, for the right to be considered the most reliable European keeper with Tretiak equally argued Golechek. After he retired, competitors Vladislav left. But not because povyvelis great goalkeepers. Kralik Czech, Swedish Lindmark and Lindberg, our Mishkin also were outstanding masters of catching and not allowed to lower the bar of skill, raised the 70 legends at the height of the Celestial Empire. Just Tretiak in the first half of the 80 reached a peak capacity, which for the rest was unavailable Everest. He was at that time absolutely impossible to score. The thing is that if the other train and play in goal, then Tretiak in them, it can be said to have lived. And no one would be surprised, perhaps, if it turned out that under the left bar has a secret recess in the ice, where he kept a mattress, heater and razor blades. He retired from hockey to term, suddenly, because he was tired of this life.

Best tournament. At the World Championships-83 Tretiak dried four games out of seven (and missed only four of them in the other three), and in his last tournament in Sarajevo Olympics left a "donut" in the final tournament and the Canadians and Czechs. But since the Olympics are not considered - 1983rd.

Best match. Tretiak have several dozen. You can write each on a separate piece of paper, put all in a hat and get the first available - no error.

Alternative. Jiri Kralik and Dominik Hasek , two Czechoslovak goalkeeper. First recognized the number one in the championships-82 and -85 (and in the same 1985 - best hockey player of all of Europe), the second - in the 87th and 89th. A distinctive feature was the focus Kralik, the transition to detachment: it seemed that the site he sees and hears only the puck. If Jiri nothing distracted and did not bother, he caught everything that was trying to fly with him. And - it's probably hard to believe, but you have to - miss even less Tretiak. Hasek is, first appeared on the public in the 83 th, surprised "creep": he first took the fashion play sitting and lying on the ice in spite of all the classical canons. And very soon proved that this style is quite contraceptives to the gate.
And the same for the 1950s/60s.
Via Google Translate:
Quote:
Seth Martin (Canada)

Years: 1961, 1963 - 1964, 1966 - 1967.

Titles: Best goalkeeper World Cup 1961, 1963, 1964, 1966. World Champion 1961.

Why not Konovalenko? Only because our goalkeeper (who, by the way, thought Martin model in this art) was added reliability unmatched backs: Sologubov, Tregubov Ragulin, Kuzkin, Davydov, Vasiliev, Lutchenko etc. Canadian, even if he ever dreamed of such a barrier, trying to wake up as soon as possible so as not to hammer head distant fantasy. More often than not, Martin was answerable for all of Canada alone - he was so impenetrable, that seemed to be able to catch the two goals simultaneously. No accident that almost all the championships, where he performed at the IIHF (then LIHG) was no doubt who proclaim the perfect goalkeeper. And in the 67th, he was stronger than others, but the prize given to the American Wetzel, who heroically pulled ugly U.S. team to fifth place.

Best tournament. very first. In the championship, only 61 Americans were able open the gates Martin twice (His replacement for the remaining 15 minutes of the meeting they had to score as much.) Sweden, Czechoslovakia, and in the "golden match" Soviet Russia is satisfied with one goal each.

Best match. Penultimate. March 27, 1967 for the tour to finish teams of the USSR and Canada determined the champion. Our advantage was tremendous, but Martin fought to the death. Print it could only ... own defender Carl Brewer (we have it then was called Brewer), and in utterly stupid episode. Anatoly Firsov send me around the board met with the puck and threw it away without looking at the area rival. Brewer awkwardly waved a stick, she soared up the air, landed on his back Seth fluttered and fell into the net.

Alternative . Of course, Konovalenko.

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11-24-2012, 07:45 PM
  #315
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Right...well, what I said was in context of domestic achievements...the depth matters if Holecek wins awards against scrubs...
I certainly don't think Dzurilla was a scrub. Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that for whatever reason, Czechoslovakia was the best country in Europe at producing goalies. The USSR had Tretiak. CSSR always had a standout internationally, whether it be Dzurilla, Holecek, Kralik, or Hasek. They also had solid depth goalies like Crha, who was shown to have proved to be NHL calibre in his early 30s.

Quote:
If the depth of the league and the competition for awards didn't matter, wouldn't Hugh Lehman have already been put up on the big board?
Of course it matters. If CSSR wasn't closer to the USSR than they were to the pack, I wouldn't think we should hold their players in nearly as high a regard.

And again, it's not just domestic. On the bigger stage of the World Chanpionships, Holecek was awarded Best Goalie by the Directorate or All-Star by the media 6 times out of 8 tries (he was awarded both 4 times). And this was usually over Tretiak.

Quote:
I've been away for the past few days so I have some catching up to do in reading here I admit...but Holecek didn't strike me as particularly good, I watched a team literally add a defenseman to help protect him, and now some issues with his domestic achievements have arisen it seems...this isn't looking so hot...
CSSR played the Left Wing Lock, a defensive system, but a less defensive system than the traps that Martin Brodeur and Clint Benedict usually played behind, and probably less defensive than the version of the trap Dryden played behind. Turk Broda, Bernie Parent, and Johnny Bower all had most of their success playing for defensive teams.

Edit: I realize that Holecek is something of a wild card this round,* but I don't think "he played behind a defensive system," is a reason to vote against him, unless you are going to similarly punish guys like Bower, not to mention Brodeur. I think that the style of his team was already taken into account by the people who watched him play when they voted on awards.

*though for me, Bill Durnan is just as much of a wild card


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11-24-2012, 09:02 PM
  #316
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When I say that Czechoslovakia was probably the best in Europe at producing goalies, here is a quick example:

From 1971-1990, there were 17 World Championships. Each tournament is a small sample, but I think all of them together is a pretty significant sample. This time frame more or less covers the golden era of European hockey before the fall of the Iron Curtain and the European influx into the NHL.

In that time:

9/17 Directorate "Best Goalie" awards went to the Czech goalie (5 to Jiri Holecek, 2 to Jiri Kralik, 2 to Dominik Hasek). 4/17 went to the USSR (3 to Vladislav Tretiak, 1 to Arturs Irbe). 3/17 went to Sweden (2 to Peter Lindmark, 1 to Gran Hgosta). 1/17 went to Finland (Jorma Valtanen).

10/17 Media All Star Awards went to the Czech goalie (5 to Jiri Holecek, 3 to Dominik Hasek, 2 to Jiri Kralik), 4/17 went to Sweden (2 to Peter Lindmark, 1 to Goran Hogosta, 1 to Curt Larsson). 3/17 went to the USSR (all to Vladislav Tretiak).

Kralik and Hasek weren't Holecek's direct competition (Kralik started around when Holecek finished), but I think it points to a trend of great goalies coming out of Czechoslovakia.

Holecek's most notable actual domestic competition were Vladimir Dzurilla, who anecdotally seems to be the 3rd best goalie in Europe in the 1970s (behind Tretiak and Holecek) and Crha, who I didn't know anything about until a few days ago, but apparently was a solid NHL starter in his early 30s after coming over.

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11-24-2012, 09:52 PM
  #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Here's a European perspective on Holecek. From Evgeny Zyryankin of sports.ru: the best World Championship players of the 1970s.
Via Google Translate:

Zyryankin appears to have been in his 20s when he wrote this series in 2001, so it's not a contemporary European perspective on Holecek, but it is at least a European perspective.

Here's the piece on the best of the 80s, including Tretiak.
Via Google Translate:

And the same for the 1950s/60s.
Via Google Translate:
Thanks for posting this. Just for reference, here are their best players in the World Championships of the 1970s: Jiri Holecek, Valeri Vasiliev, Frantisek Pospisil, Boris Mikhailov, Alexander Maltsev, Vladimir Martinec

Of the 1980s: Vladislav Tretiak, Slava Fetisov, Alexei Kasatonov, Sergei Makarov, Igor Larionov, Vladimir Krutov

Of the 1950s/60s: Seth Martin, Nicholas Sologubov, Alexander Ragulin, Anatoli Firsov, Tumba Johnasson, Vsevolod Bobrov

Seems very reasonable.

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11-24-2012, 10:02 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Criteria, voters, transperency of the process, counter-balancing factors, such as ASTs, Best Defenseman, Best Forward and other awards/honours in the Czechoslovakian domestic leageu that will provide a more complete picture. Significant considerations would be the number of voters, who they were, the timing of the voting, nature of the ballot, weight of each ballot or slot on the ballot.
That's a nice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
wish list
but not what is available to me (or - so it seems - anybody else who is trying to contribute to this project). The way things usually are in Europe, you can expect the voters to be either journalists (most likely) or coaches (less common, but not without precedent). No reason to discredit the Zlata Hokejka just because we don't know all the details. Also, see:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The domestic All Star Teams were presented upthread - Holecek was named the All-Star or Best Goalie in the Extraliga 7 of 8 years as determined by TIP magazine...
TheoKritos posted the point totals for the Golden Stick for all goalies down to about 20th place (and I reposted them in the same post where I posted the All-Star/best goalie awards), so there obviously were a fairly significant number of voters. Considering that the Golden Stick was an official award, I would imagine the voters were "experts" of some sort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I've been away for the past few days so I have some catching up to do in reading here I admit...but Holecek didn't strike me as particularly good... and now some issues with his domestic achievements have arisen it seems...
If you catch up and do the reading you will see that are no issues with Holeček's domestic achievements. Except you also think there are issues with Ray Bourque's NHL achievements before 2000-2001.

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11-24-2012, 10:20 PM
  #319
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From memory, Novy generally outscored Martinec in the domestic league but finished behind him in Golden Stick voting. One reason given was that Novy played for dynasty quality teams.
I see. That "dynasty quality team" was Kladno though and not Jihlava (except in the 1972-73 season). Not a big deal, but just to clarify that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Martinec's only domestic goal scoring title (which was his 4th Golden Stick year) was his one season for Jihlava when he was aging.
I wasn't aware of that. But how much of an improvement was that really when Martinec had already won the Golden Stick three times before?

Anyway, you are right: rather offtopic.

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11-24-2012, 11:11 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by TheoKritos
If you catch up and do the reading you will see that are no issues with Holeček's domestic achievements. Except you also think there are issues with Ray Bourque's NHL achievements before 2000-2001.
Right. I understand how someone with an NHL-centric view would have concerns about Holecek's limited number of games against NHL players. The counterargument is that he has a pretty good sample against Soviets who proved themselves against NHLers

I can also see how someone who heavily values longevity as an elite player would have issues with Holecek accomplishing nothing of note outside an 8 year period. The Counterargument is that 8 years is longer than the entire career of Dryden, Gardiner, or Durnan.

But I really don't understand the idea that there are questions about his domestic record

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11-25-2012, 12:54 AM
  #321
TheDevilMadeMe
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Turk Broda

Turk Broda was the most controversial candidate last round and we haven't really talked about him much. With voting right around the corner, anyone care to make a case for or against him, or compare him to any of the current candidates?

I was convinced last round that he was a slightly worse version of Benedict, but Benedict is on the list now.

I'm having trouble placing Broda and Durnan; though I'm not sure what else could be said about Durnan this round

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11-25-2012, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Provide substance to the Zlata Hokejka.

Criteria, voters, transperency of the process, counter-balancing factors, such as ASTs, Best Defenseman, Best Forward and other awards/honours in the Czechoslovakian domestic leageu that will provide a more complete picture. Significant considerations would be the number of voters, who they were, the timing of the voting, nature of the ballot, weight of each ballot or slot on the ballot.
Right now, it's impossible to find out rule changes year by year, so may not be 100 % correct at the time Holecek was competiting:

Zlata Hokejka is oldest Czech individual award. It goes to best Czech players that season (before 1989 players in NHL were excluded)

Voters - votes are divided among 3 groups - representatives of hockey association (president, NT coach, U20 coach), coaches of league teams and representatives of sport media.

There are 3 rounds (right now it's at the end of extraliga, WC and NHL, most reasonable at Holeceks time would be half season, end of season, end of WC or just one round) and every voter chooses 10 best players at that part of season. 1st player gets 10 points, 10th 1.

Only big change I found mentioned is regarding NHL players, but there may be some undocumented changes I missed

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11-25-2012, 01:47 AM
  #323
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Thank You

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamini View Post
Right now, it's impossible to find out rule changes year by year, so may not be 100 % correct at the time Holecek was competiting:

Zlata Hokejka is oldest Czech individual award. It goes to best Czech players that season (before 1989 players in NHL were excluded)

Voters - votes are divided among 3 groups - representatives of hockey association (president, NT coach, U20 coach), coaches of league teams and representatives of sport media.

There are 3 rounds (right now it's at the end of extraliga, WC and NHL, most reasonable at Holeceks time would be half season, end of season, end of WC or just one round) and every voter chooses 10 best players at that part of season. 1st player gets 10 points, 10th 1.

Only big change I found mentioned is regarding NHL players, but there may be some undocumented changes I missed
Thank you for the overview and historic perspective.

So the Zlata Hokejka award is not a strict domestic league award.

It is an all inclusive seasonal hockey award.

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11-25-2012, 02:22 AM
  #324
lamini
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Thank you for the overview and historic perspective.

So the Zlata Hokejka award is not a strict domestic league award.

It is an all inclusive seasonal hockey award.
At Holeceks time it was unthinkable best Czechoslovak player may be outside of Czechoslovak league (propaganda reason, so no NHLers or other deflected players), but AFAIK international play was considered even than

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11-25-2012, 10:21 AM
  #325
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Turk Broda was the most controversial candidate last round and we haven't really talked about him much. With voting right around the corner, anyone care to make a case for or against him, or compare him to any of the current candidates?

I was convinced last round that he was a slightly worse version of Benedict, but Benedict is on the list now.

I'm having trouble placing Broda and Durnan; though I'm not sure what else could be said about Durnan this round
Broda had 7 full seasons before leaving for WWII.

YearRS RankGA RankPO ResultPO WAS Rank
36-375th6thL QF0-
37-383rd4thL F4-
38-393rd3rdL F55th
39-403rd3rdL F6-
40-412nd1stL SF31st
41-422nd2ndW SC82nd
42-433rd2ndL SF23rd

After the war he played 7 more seasons, one partial season in 45-46, 4 full years, 1 injury/platoon season, and one single appearance plus playoff platoon in his last season.

YearRS RankGA RankPO ResultPO WAS Rank
45-465th5th---
46-472nd2ndW SC83rd
47-481st1stW SC81st
48-494th3rdW SC83rd
49-503rd3rdL SF33rd
50-512nd1stW SC5-
51-523rd2ndL SF0-

His play in the 1950 loss vs Detroit should be singled out for attention. He had 3 shutouts, and lost a 4th in OT of game 7. He also lost a game in 2OT. His overall GAA was 1.33, but only 0.96 on the road. One can't be 100% sure if game shot/save totals include the goals or not, with different terms being used from game to game, but likely SV% is .946.

Broda missed 20 straight games in the middle of the 1950-51 season, where he split the games 31/40 with Rollins.

The all-star voting from 46-47 to 49-50 was done by the 6 NHL coaches. As no coach could vote for one of his players, a player could only receive up to 5 votes. During this span Broda received 6 1st place votes, and 15 of a possible 20 votes.

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