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Hfboards top 25 under 25 list : #17

View Poll Results: Who is the better player currently ?
Tyler Myers 39 34.21%
Jeff Skinner 16 14.04%
PK Subban 16 14.04%
Matt Duchene 16 14.04%
Evander Kane 6 5.26%
Karl Alzner 5 4.39%
Victor Hedman 2 1.75%
Semyon Varlamov 4 3.51%
Jakub Voracek 1 0.88%
Max Pacioretty 1 0.88%
Travis Hamonic 2 1.75%
David Perron 0 0%
Kevin Shattenkirk 4 3.51%
Brad Marchand 2 1.75%
Dmitry Kulikov 0 0%
Voters: 114. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-22-2012, 05:04 PM
  #1
Mathieu
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Hfboards top 25 under 25 list : #17

Hi,

We will use the same rules as ESPN did for their top 25 so we can compare when we're done. Also, I should specify that the poll is for who is the better player right now, and not who will be better in the future. Here's why player like Giroux and Landeskog are not included in the poll :

Quote:
A few other ground rules: As the title of the ranking indicates, players 25 or over -- and those turning 25 before Feb. 1 -- are inelligble for this list. That removes several of the list's previous top names -- including Sidney Crosby, Nicklas Backstrom and Claude Giroux. Also, by looking for an established track record of success rather than future potential, you won't find any of the league's talented 2011-12 rookies on this list. That even includes the NHL's reigning rookie of the year Gabriel Landeskog of the Colorado Avalanche and Edmonton's Ryan Nugent-Hopkins[...]
#1 : Steven Stamkos (83.26%)
#2 : John Tavares (40.09%)
#3 : Jonathan Toews (49.25%)
#4 : Erik Karlsson (54.49%)
#5 : Drew Doughty (43.21%)
#6 : Alex Pietrangelo (80.00%)
#7 : Patrick Kane (56.94%)
#8 : Jordan Eberle (33.11%)
#9 : Jamie Benn (23.08%)
#10 : Tyler Seguin (29.93%)
#11 : Taylor Hall ( 27.95% )
#12 : Oliver Ekman-Larsson (23.33%)
#13 : Ryan McDonagh (21.39%)
#14 : Logan Couture (21.70%)
#15 : Jordan Staal (25.81%)
#16 : Milan Lucic (31.62%)
#17 :

Also, feel free to propose players who you think deserve to be nominated

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11-22-2012, 05:06 PM
  #2
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Tyler Myers remains laughably underrated.

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11-22-2012, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Tyler Myers remains laughably underrated.
As does Duchene

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11-22-2012, 06:09 PM
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I especially don't understand Couture's ranking. He's scored 30 goals twice, which is great, but he's at best the third best forward on his team, and that's pretty debatable between him and Pavelski. He doesn't factor into San Jose's PK, top line, or shutdown unit.

Everyone on this list has ridiculously more team importance than him, as well as a significant number of players not yet selected.

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11-22-2012, 06:16 PM
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So players on good teams can't be as good as players on bad teams? This is a best player poll, not a most valuable one.

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11-22-2012, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
So players on good teams can't be as good as players on bad teams? This is a best player poll, not a most valuable one.
All of those players have also done the equivalent or better of scoring 30/30 behind elite offensive players.

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11-22-2012, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
I especially don't understand Couture's ranking. He's scored 30 goals twice, which is great, but he's at best the third best forward on his team, and that's pretty debatable between him and Pavelski. He doesn't factor into San Jose's PK, top line, or shutdown unit.

Everyone on this list has ridiculously more team importance than him, as well as a significant number of players not yet selected.
This isn't a measure of who is important to their team, it is a list of who is currently the best player. Couture is in line with where he should be in the forwards in terms of offensive production (other than Benn, who is #8 but had lower production and has never reached 30 goals). He was 2nd on the Shark's in points, PK's (not sure where you came up with the notion he doesn't) and is very good defensively in addition to his offensive contributions.

If you want to scratch your head on the rankings, I would look at Staal before Couture.

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11-22-2012, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Mattb124 View Post
This isn't a measure of who is important to their team, it is a list of who is currently the best player. Couture is in line with where he should be in the forwards in terms of offensive production (other than Benn, who is #8 but had lower production and has never reached 30 goals). He was 2nd on the Shark's in points, PK's (not sure where you came up with the notion he doesn't) and is very good defensively in addition to his offensive contributions.

If you want to scratch your head on the rankings, I would look at Staal before Couture.
He was 6th among forwards in total team PK time, 5th before the Winnik trade. I said he didn't really factor into the Sharks PK, which considering they had to trade for a PK specialist at the deadline, seems to be a pretty accurate statement.

And considering Thornton took the majority of difficult defensive matchups while being the first scoring threat opposing defenses looked to check, I really don't think Couture had it all that rough. I didn't notice Benn at 9, and think that is ****ing ridiculous too, and I'm a huge fan of the kid.

I remain unconvinced that the third or fourth best forward on his team, with zero standout seasons, is better than guys like Myers and Subban, who have put up seasons as good or better than Couture's best while carrying significantly heavier loads. Or even dominant shutdown defensemen like Alzner and Hamonic.

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11-22-2012, 07:33 PM
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Subban, again.

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11-22-2012, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
He was 6th among forwards in total team PK time, 5th before the Winnik trade. I said he didn't really factor into the Sharks PK, which considering they had to trade for a PK specialist at the deadline, seems to be a pretty accurate statement.

And considering Thornton took the majority of difficult defensive matchups while being the first scoring threat opposing defenses looked to check, I really don't think Couture had it all that rough. I didn't notice Benn at 9, and think that is ****ing ridiculous too, and I'm a huge fan of the kid.

I remain unconvinced that the third or fourth best forward on his team, with zero standout seasons, is better than guys like Myers and Subban, who have put up seasons as good or better than Couture's best while carrying significantly heavier loads. Or even dominant shutdown defensemen like Alzner and Hamonic.
Couture was 4th in PK TOI/game until they traded for Winnick and Moore at the TDL. Moore never figured prominently in the Shark's PK post-trade (his PK TOI/game minutes came predominantly from Tampa). As such, saying Couture was 5th or 6th and didn't really factor into the PK is inaccurate. It appears you are trying to look at raw stats and fabricate a context that supports your position rather than making an assessment on the player from actually having watched him play.

Edit: I did a little stats searching on Tyler Myers, and advanced stats do not favor him, placing him from 94-147 in the various CORSI measurements among D-men. Admittedly I do not watch him play much, but that aligns more with my limited exposure. I can see Subban, not so much Myers.


Last edited by Mattb124: 11-22-2012 at 08:48 PM.
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11-22-2012, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Mattb124 View Post
Couture was 4th in PK TOI/game until they traded for Winnick and Moore at the TDL. Moore never figured prominently in the Shark's PK post-trade (his PK TOI/game minutes came predominantly from Tampa). As such, saying Couture was 5th or 6th and didn't really factor into the PK is inaccurate. It appears you are trying to look at raw stats and fabricate a context that supports your position rather than making an assessment on the player from actually having watched him play.
I forgot about the Moore trade. Still, that puts Couture at best as 4th on the second worst penalty killing team in the league, a unit that was still in the bottom third in goals allowed despite being the least shorthanded team in the league.

So tell, me what Couture has done that makes him a better player than two #1 defensemen?

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11-22-2012, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Mattb124 View Post
Edit: I did a little stats searching on Tyler Myers, and advanced stats do not favor him, placing him from 94-147 in the various CORSI measurements among D-men. Admittedly I do not watch him play much, but that aligns more with my limited exposure. I can see Subban, not so much Myers.
He's been the all-situations number one defenseman on a pair of playoff teams. He didn't play shutdown minutes last season, but used that time to post a 40 point pace while being the stingiest defenseman on his team per-60, despite an injury plagued season.

But yeah, a meh corsi rating invalidates that.

He also led the team in that same stat only a year ago. It's not a great indicator of anything.

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11-22-2012, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattb124 View Post
Couture was 4th in PK TOI/game until they traded for Winnick and Moore at the TDL. Moore never figured prominently in the Shark's PK post-trade (his PK TOI/game minutes came predominantly from Tampa). As such, saying Couture was 5th or 6th and didn't really factor into the PK is inaccurate. It appears you are trying to look at raw stats and fabricate a context that supports your position rather than making an assessment on the player from actually having watched him play.

Edit: I did a little stats searching on Tyler Myers, and advanced stats do not favor him, placing him from 94-147 in the various CORSI measurements among D-men. Admittedly I do not watch him play much, but that aligns more with my limited exposure. I can see Subban, not so much Myers.
Myers wasn't used in a heavy shutdown role because he had no chemistry with Regher (Robyn just couldn't keep up with the kid), and he had a broken wrist and small knee problem that bothered him for much of the year, so Regehr-Sekera took the bulk of the heavy lifting defensively. Still scored at a decent pace despite having his PPTOI cut for a 2nd straight year (no fault of his own -- all on Ruff trying to spoon feed Legitimate NHL Defenseman Marc-Andre Gargnani buttersoft minutes and easy scoring chances), had the lowest GA/60 on the team, and also that thing where the Sabres record with him in the line-up have them winning at a .700 rate, while without him they hardly won 1/4 of the games they played. And then, of course, there's the seldom-used (at least on HF) option of looking at more than one season to evaluate a player's performance.

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11-23-2012, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
I forgot about the Moore trade. Still, that puts Couture at best as 4th on the second worst penalty killing team in the league, a unit that was still in the bottom third in goals allowed despite being the least shorthanded team in the league.

So tell, me what Couture has done that makes him a better player than two #1 defensemen?
Ironically, I am watching game #81 from last season v. the Kings. During a 4 v. 3 where the Shark's were short-handed, Pavelski started on the PK and Couture went out with the second PK unit. None of the forwards ahead of him in PK TOI/game were in the box, so that is a pretty good indication of the coaching staff's confidence in his defensive/PK ability. Again, you are trying to manufacture scenarios to make simple statistics support you opinion, whereas actual situational usage completely undermines it.

You might be wise to compare the Shark's PK ranking versus coaching changes as well as player changes before indicting the players. They went from being near the top of the league in '09-'10 to the bottom the past 2 years. I think you will find that personnel isn't the issue - just as Winnick did. He said as much in the press after he was brought in, being indirectly critical of the passive PK style implemented by the Shark's coaching. Comparing the coaching staff intended for '12-'13 versus last year would be a good start.

To answer your question directly, Couture is appropriately listed where he is due to his offensive production coupled with his defensive prowess including his PK-ability.

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11-23-2012, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
Myers wasn't used in a heavy shutdown role because he had no chemistry with Regher (Robyn just couldn't keep up with the kid), and he had a broken wrist and small knee problem that bothered him for much of the year, so Regehr-Sekera took the bulk of the heavy lifting defensively. Still scored at a decent pace despite having his PPTOI cut for a 2nd straight year (no fault of his own -- all on Ruff trying to spoon feed Legitimate NHL Defenseman Marc-Andre Gargnani buttersoft minutes and easy scoring chances), had the lowest GA/60 on the team, and also that thing where the Sabres record with him in the line-up have them winning at a .700 rate, while without him they hardly won 1/4 of the games they played. And then, of course, there's the seldom-used (at least on HF) option of looking at more than one season to evaluate a player's performance.
As I intimated above, there is potential folly in using simple or advances stats to determine player ability. This is especially difficult with young players who have short trend lines. In defense of my position, Myers had a down year (which may be explained with the qualitative factors you mentioned). Couture didn't.

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11-23-2012, 06:16 AM
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Myers

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11-23-2012, 07:56 AM
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Tyler Myers

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11-23-2012, 03:44 PM
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Voted Subban.

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11-23-2012, 04:04 PM
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As does Duchene
maybe it has something to do with his 28 point season

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11-23-2012, 04:22 PM
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Myers for sure

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11-24-2012, 12:54 PM
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Duchene or Subban.

Subban > Myers

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11-24-2012, 01:55 PM
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Obviously Myers, on to the next poll.

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