If Nelson/Nino continue to tear up the AHL together, maybe we will see them on our 2nd line next season?
Moulson/Tavares/Strome
Nino/Nelson/Okposo
Bailey/Nielson/Grabner
Martin/Cizikas/Ullstrom
Streit/UFA
Hamonic/MacDonald
Carkner/Reinhart
Donovan/DeHaan
Poulin/Nilsson
imo, that lineup delivers us yet another lottery pick. 7 rookies in the lineup are not a recipe for success. and yes, even though nino, cizikas and ullstrom spent a good amount of time with the isles last season, I still consider them rookies.
The wisdom that has evaded the Islanders and many fans is that a player is first and foremost A HUMAN BEING, needing growth and stability and time to grow and refine the many traits that will make them successful in life. Just like any animal in nature.
When you consistently turn out young pups into the wild to fend for themselves, they fail a majority of the time. When you see a school of fish, the hatchlings die in an abysmal rate to predators.
Now look at elephants and lion cubs. The maturation process is slow. Methodical. There is great care in ensuring the survival of the young.
The Isles can not afford to have their youth come up too soon a la Bailey/Okposo only to have them MAYBE reach 50-70% of their potential because we can't wait until the 25th to unwrap our presents AGAIN. Reinhart will be a great talent but....has to grow. His offense is not maximized and his defense is solid. My myopic black and white view is this:
The Dteroit Red Wings wait and wait and see success with their lion cubs. The Isles have their nine game stints and can't wait for whatever reason and end up with fish food. Why not start acting like a lioness and less like we have? Are you afraid of waiting and guaranteeing a greater chance of success or can you just not be patient?
Ryan Strome has to get bigger. Want him to try realy really hard and possibly get injured? Because we don't want to see another Rolston? We'll end up signing a Rolston once Strome is on IR.
Just do it right. The way Torrey did it, the way Holland and Devellano do it. Wait, and when the time is right, enjoy the fruits of our labors.
The Isles vineyards makes great grape juice. The wine? Leave that to someone else? Perhaps you can gloss over Okposo, DP, Bailey, Nino, Chyzowski, Lindros, etc. and focus on Tavares. I can't. I look and see some kids like Hamonic develop quickly and some like Joensuu take longer (and it looks like that kid is about to start being ready for the bigs!). Is it not worth waiting for something better to you?
When Reinhart can step into camp and make someone on the roster expendable and can bring the entire NHL game from day one, he earns the 9 games. That is how you ensure you are the best. And that THEY are at their best.
I completely understand where you are coming from, but I don't think you are guaranteeing anything by being overly cautious with your top prospects. A player who reaches 50-70% after 2 years of development could end up being that same 50-70% player had they had 4 years of development. Maybe even worse.
I know everyone brings up Detroit as an example for how to develop players, but I really don't understand what they've done that was so different(as far as their timeframe when bringing players along. Obviously they have drafted differently). Here are just a few players:
Zetterberg(7th), Datsyuk(6th) and Kronwall(1st) all had 3 years of development before they made it full time; Jimmy Howard(2nd) had 2 years; Johan Franzen(3rd) had 1 year; The only player I found worth mentioning who took longer than 3 years was Filppula(3rd) who took 4; Even retired players like Lidstrom(3rd) took 2 years, Fedorov(4th) took 1 year, and Yzerman(1st(4th overall...same as Reinhart and one slot before Strome and Nino)) went straight to the NHL.
I don't think there is a team in hockey that has consistent success because they restrict prospect development for at least X number of years. It's all a crap shoot, taken with a wait-and-see approach.
I still think you are under the impression that I want Strome and Reinhart on this team next year no matter what, which isn't the case. They should be evaluated in camp, and based upon how they performed the year prior, and that should dictate whether or not they make the team. I have little doubt Strome will make it, but that probably has more to do with me being extremely high on him, and a little to do with me knowing this team probably won't invest in a center(or any kind of forward) on the UFA market.
I do doubt whether Reinhart will be ready, but I only question whether he will because of the kid's extreme size in regards to the league he is playing in. At that point next year, it may serve him better to start having him compete against men so he can really learn how to utilize his big frame, instead of letting him continue to physically dominate at the WHL level where he could potentially become complacent. Either way, I expect it to be a very tough decision no matter what the coaching staff chooses to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey
Do you wish he waited longer for Bailey and Nino? Just curious.
Bailey, yes. I was completely shocked when I found out he made the team in '08. As far as Nino goes, not necessarily. If I knew that the team was only going to use him in a 4th line role, then yes I would have waited longer. If not for the injury, though, I think he would have probably gotten an opportunity.
That said, I still think Bailey will become a very valuable player for this team. He's really impressed me in his time on the wing and love the potential that a possible Bailey-Strome-Okposo 2nd line brings. Obviously I would have loved for him to have gotten a little more seasoning, but as of now I like where he is at as a 23 year old NHLer.
Last edited by blinkman360: 11-12-2012 at 11:37 AM.
imo, that lineup delivers us yet another lottery pick. 7 rookies in the lineup are not a recipe for success. and yes, even though nino, cizikas and ullstrom spent a good amount of time with the isles last season, I still consider them rookies.
What changes would you make? Maybe swap Nelson for a proven player and have him dominate the AHL one more year? How about Strome do you see him getting another year of Juniors or would it be AHL for him?
I completely understand where you are coming from, but I don't think you are guaranteeing anything by being overly cautious with your top prospects. A player who reaches 50-70% after 2 years of development could end up being that same 50-70% player had they had 4 years of development. Maybe even worse.
I know everyone brings up Detroit as an example for how to develop players, but I really don't understand what they've done that was so different(as far as their timeframe when bringing players along. Obviously they have drafted differently). Here are just a few players:
Zetterberg(7th), Datsyuk(6th) and Kronwall(1st) all had 3 years of development before they made it full time; Jimmy Howard(2nd) had 2 years; Johan Franzen(3rd) had 1 year; The only player I found worth mentioning who took longer than 3 years was Filppula(3rd) who took 4; Even retired players like Lidstrom(3rd) took 2 years, Fedorov(4th) took 1 year, and Yzerman(1st(4th overall...same as Reinhart and one slot before Strome and Nino)) went straight to the NHL.
I don't think there is a team in hockey that has consistent success because they restrict prospect development for at least X number of years. It's all a crap shoot, taken with a wait-and-see approach.
I still think you are under the impression that I want Strome and Reinhart on this team next year no matter what, which isn't the case. They should be evaluated in camp, and based upon how they performed the year prior, and that should dictate whether or not they make the team. I have little doubt Strome will make it, but that probably has more to do with me being extremely high on him, and a little to do with me knowing this team probably won't invest in a center(or any kind of forward) on the UFA market.
I do doubt whether Reinhart will be ready, but I only question whether he will because of the kid's extreme size in regards to the league he is playing in. At that point next year, it may serve him better to start having him compete against men so he can really learn how to utilize his big frame, instead of letting him continue to physically dominate at the WHL level where he could potentially become complacent. Either way, I expect it to be a very tough decision no matter what the coaching staff chooses to do.
Bailey, yes. I was completely shocked when I found out he made the team in '08. As far as Nino goes, not necessarily. If I knew that the team was only going to use him in a 4th line role, then yes I would have waited longer. If not for the injury, though, I think he would have probably gotten an opportunity.
That said, I still think Bailey will become a very valuable player for this team. He's really impressed me in his time on the wing and love the potential that a possible Bailey-Strome-Okposo 2nd line brings. Obviously I would have loved for him to have gotten a little more seasoning, but as of now I like where he is at as a 23 year old NHLer.
What I want is to not mess with them until they are ready. Yzerman (above) should be compared to Tavares, not Reinhart. The "where they were picked" means nothing. The "when they were NHL ready" means everything. I'll also add the picks Detroit made were stunning. Those guys would have been ready year one for us or for Anaheim or Phoenix but would have taken two years with NYR and they took three with great development from Detroit.
In other words, I think you pay more attention to the stuff in between the pick and the 9 game tryout like Detroit does. But I guess we're not far off on that. I just want 100% ready in all aspects before we dangle the pro game. I want the low pressure minors to be all they get until they prove themselves. I hate nothing more in the game of hockey than the phrase, "they did all they could at that level."
perry, scurderi, and hainsey to the islanders with streit also resigning
Bailey, Nielsen, Pedan, the isles 2013 first and second rounders gets traded for Sharp, Carcillo and Hayes
getting ready to win the cup with only 2 years remaining on the island and to move to brooklyn as a stanley cup champion
Moulson - Tavares - Perry
Grabner - Nelson - Sharp
Ullstrom - Cizikas - Okposo
Martin - Malhotra - Carcillo
Halmo
perry, scurderi, and hainsey to the islanders with streit also resigning
Bailey, Nielsen, Pedan, the isles 2013 first and second rounders gets traded for Sharp, Carcillo and Hayes
getting ready to win the cup with only 2 years remaining on the island and to move to brooklyn as a stanley cup champion
Moulson - Tavares - Perry
Grabner - Nelson - Sharp
Ullstrom - Cizikas - Okposo
Martin - Malhotra - Carcillo
Halmo
strome's rookie season is in the ahl so he can dominate with nino, kabanov and company
That is a lot for Sharp and Carcillo. I would much rather have 2 good, young 3rd liners 2 high picks and a defensive prospect over and aging winger and 4th liner.
Two wing spots, presumably Bailey takes one. Id target a center like Cullen, ribiero, Zubrus or mcdonald on a shortterm (no more than 3 yrs) deal. Other wing spot target perhaps penne, horton (would commit more to him) or Some other decent vet.
On d i try and resign Viz or target Hainsey who has mobility and size and can help fill some gaps while GR n co. Develop. Fill out the bottom pairing with a rookie and Carkner.
MacD-hamonic
Streit- hainsey
Carkner-donovan/ness
Solid top four. Quality top 9 with options in the brisge like Nelson, kabanov n likely strome.
I really liked the zubrus idea someone threw out there before he brings great size and grit for an undersized forward group and i would also throw the kitchen sink at perry he would be money with JT. As for Dmen i say we try hard to resign viz but for some reason i dont see him staying, scuderi and hainsey wouldnt be bad short term. Id also go hard after weiss and ryder because i think they would fit nicely on this team.
i think Vis, Streit, and Nabby are all but gone, given their age and status... and i don't think much will change, as far as bringing in star players. not until 2015, or if a sweet deal falls into Snow's lap.
just a guess, obviously. this is not what i want, so easy on the 'let's let our young guys develop' opinion...
I would be very surprised if Strome is not the 2nd line center next year, and I think it would have been very likely that he would have been our 2nd line center this season. I'm not saying that's what should be done or that he doesn't need time in the AHL, but he's going to be in the NHL.
I would be very surprised if Strome is not the 2nd line center next year, and I think it would have been very likely that he would have been our 2nd line center this season. I'm not saying that's what should be done or that he doesn't need time in the AHL, but he's going to be in the NHL.
With one full year of not being molested by the parent club, he might be ready. We have some solid kids in a 2004 scenario of being free to grow without meddling. This is GREAT!
i think Vis, Streit, and Nabby are all but gone, given their age and status... and i don't think much will change, as far as bringing in star players. not until 2015, or if a sweet deal falls into Snow's lap.
just a guess, obviously. this is not what i want, so easy on the 'let's let our young guys develop' opinion...
Agree on Vis, disagree on Streit and Nabby. Nabokov has already proven that he'll sign here if the price is right. If the Isles want him back for 2013-14, IMO he'll be back.
On Streit, I just don't see him going anywhere. Especially if the Islanders are content with adding $6M or so of salary in Leopold and Lydman. I think they'd give that money to Streit if they had to, and either look elsewhere for a cheaper UFA, the trade market, or add another rookie(Reinhart? deHaan? Mayfield? etc.) to the lineup. I just don't see this team letting Streit walk without a fight, and Steit doesn't strike me as the type of guy who badly wants out of LI and will refuse to sign regardless of what they offer.
Agree on Vis, disagree on Streit and Nabby. Nabokov has already proven that he'll sign here if the price is right. If the Isles want him back for 2013-14, IMO he'll be back.
On Streit, I just don't see him going anywhere. Especially if the Islanders are content with adding $6M or so of salary in Leopold and Lydman. I think they'd give that money to Streit if they had to, and either look elsewhere for a cheaper UFA, the trade market, or add another rookie(Reinhart? deHaan? Mayfield? etc.) to the lineup. I just don't see this team letting Streit walk without a fight, and Steit doesn't strike me as the type of guy who badly wants out of LI and will refuse to sign regardless of what they offer.
Agreed, Nabby and Streit are going nowhere.
It's not as if people are breaking down the door to sign Nabby and I would imagine he signs an identical deal to what he signed this past year. His old school stand up style may help his longevity as opposed the the butterfly style so he can still play at a high level.
Streit will be the priority signing and both sides know it. I think he'll get a 3-year deal. He wears the C on a seemingly close knit team and the Isles gave him his big break.
Hey we got our arena. Now the floodgates will open and everyone will want to sign here.
(SnoWang-induced lampoon.)
The arena is a giant leap in the right direction but it still has to do with management and the way they run the team. We need to win and then sell out the arena and then people will be begging to play with us. We have Tavares and now we have the Barclays, it is up to management to show they are competent to run it successfully.
Miami threw top dollar at free agents when they got there new stadium only to hit the reset button in July. How many free agents are running to Miami to play there now??
I think their arena has everything to do with it. Clearly, no one is going to want to move their family and relocate with the possibility of moving to a different state or country in two years.
Obviously, management is atrocious, but one would have to think with all their high draft picks in the system and JT on the team, the Islanders will have very good shots at attracting free agents.
Remember, it wasn't that Wang or Snow didn't throw top dollar at these free agents, but these players just didn't want to go to an ailing organization.
I think their arena has everything to do with it. Clearly, no one is going to want to move their family and relocate with the possibility of moving to a different state or country in two years.
Obviously, management is atrocious, but one would have to think with all their high draft picks in the system and JT on the team, the Islanders will have very good shots at attracting free agents.
Remember, it wasn't that Wang or Snow didn't throw top dollar at these free agents, but these players just didn't want to go to an ailing organization.
Players by and large do not want to LOSE. It's demoralizing.
No chance Nino won't be in the NHL next year with the season he's had. I expect one of Strome or Nelson to get a shot next year. My guess would be Strome, TBH, considering I thought there was a chance he would have made the team this year considering they didn't go out and bring in a center. Doubtful that they spend any money on a guy like Cullen. IMO, I think there is a pretty good chance Reinhart makes it considering how physically advanced he is, and how dominant he's been defensively this year. I would guess he'll get at least a 9-game tryout.
No chance Nino won't be in the NHL next year with the season he's had. I expect one of Strome or Nelson to get a shot next year. My guess would be Strome, TBH, considering I thought there was a chance he would have made the team this year considering they didn't go out and bring in a center. Doubtful that they spend any money on a guy like Cullen. IMO, I think there is a pretty good chance Reinhart makes it considering how physically advanced he is, and how dominant he's been defensively this year. I would guess he'll get at least a 9-game tryout.
Joensuu - Nelson - McDonald
Persson - Sundstrom - Kabanov
Halmo - Lee - Rakhshani(if still here)
DeFazio - Clark - UFA
Donovan - Mayfield
Ness - Cantin
Pedan - Kichton
Poulin/Nilsson
UFA
No way Joensuu suits up for this organziation in nothing other than an Isles sweater. Also, Brock Nelson's developmental curve has been unreal and he is a big boy; don't count him out. Rahkshani (see Joensuu). Other than that seems pretty solid, however I would think that Donovan would be higher on the depth chart than de Haan. I can't see him being in the teams plans over Matty D.
