Canadian cross country skiing pioneer. Norwegian born.
Theres a name I havent heard in years, and ya, he kept on keeping on well into his twilight years. Cross Country Ski Camps, Schools, Loppets, Trails & Resort street names, Equipment, Products.... all created by or named after Jack Rabbit. Legendary
in Quebec, Alpine & CC ski circles globally.
Played 24 years
BA: 9 times tops in both leagues, 17 times top 10 both leagues combined
OB%: 7 times tops in both leagues, 18 times top 10 both leagues combined
SLG: 5 times tops in both leagues, 16 times top 10 both leagues combined
Runs: 3 times tops in both leagues, 13 times top 10 both leagues combined
Hits: 7 times tops in both leagues, 13 times top 10 both leagues combined
Total Bases: 4 times tops in both leagues, 12 times top 10 both leagues combined
2B: 2 times tops in both leagues, 11 times top 10 both leagues combined
3B: 2 times tops in both leagues, 10 times top 10 both leagues combined
HR: 1 times tops in both leagues, 4 times top 10 both leagues combined
RBI: 3 times tops in both leagues, 9 times top 10 both leagues combined
SB: 5 times tops in both leagues, 15 times top 10 both leagues combined
Led the AL in at least 2 of these categories for 13 straight years.
Led the AL in 9 of the 11 categories in 1911. He finished 2nd in HR and OB%.
It's hard to find a comparison to Howe because he played to an age well past the norm for hockey players, especially for someone playing forward as opposed to goalie. There aren't many players in other major team sports who played well past what would be considered the norm for the age to end a career.
On that basis, Nolan Ryan might be the best comparison in baseball. There have been pitchers that played well into their 40's, but once they get into that age range they're usually relying on knuckleballs and slow junk to baffle hitters, i.e. Phil Niekro, Charlie Hough, Hoyt Wilhelm, etc. Ryan was an anomaly in that he was still a starting pitcher and still throwing HEAT - having a 301-strikeout season at age 42!
As far as non-pitchers, guys like Cobb and Ted Williams were still above average and effective hitters in their final few years, whereas Willie Mays and Pete Rose both played a few years past their effectiveness as hitters.
It's hard to find a comparison to Howe because he played to an age well past the norm for hockey players, especially for someone playing forward as opposed to goalie...
Ya, its toughie. Over 50. Hard to find guys barely into their 40's. You had TheTwo Norms with your Long Islands Ducks, Ryder & Guimond, John "Once a Duck, Always a Duck" Brophy. Guys like Larry Popein, Garry Ehman, Marv Edwards & Harry Howell with the Seals pushing 40.... but nope, nothin comparable to #9.
Lots of good picks here and some I thought of myself and agree with. Football is a tough one so we'll start with the other sports.
I agree with Kareem on this one. Very high peak, played for a long time and won a lot of championships. Also Kareem is never off of anyone's top 5 list of NBA players and neither is Howe.
Ted Williams is another interesting one. Would have had higher numbers without the two Wars. The only knock on Ted is that he never won a championship while Howe did. And while Williams was the best at what he did (hitter, HR hitter) during his time he doesn't match that in defensive player or baserunning.
Cobb might just be the best example. Played a long, long time similar to Howe. Never won a championship though which hurts but was good at every facet of the game. He was just hated by everyone, unlike Howe.
Hank Aaron isn't a bad choice, but if I would pick another one in Baseball it is Willie Mays. Mays, like Aaron played forever, but I think he was better all around and could beat you in so many ways, like Howe. Mays won a World Series once so at least he could win.
Hmmm. The NFL. Barry Sanders hung them up too early at 31 to be compared to Howe. Same with Jim Brown. If any running back compares better to Howe it is Walter Payton. I don't know, Jerry Rice perhaps? Played an insane amount of football in his career up until 40. Won championships like Howe, was a big part of doing it. Could catch the ball, could run well after the catch and had great anticipation. Also, while more people would probably put Montana as the best NFLer the truth is a few would still put Rice in there which falls in line with the Gretzky/Howe train of thought.
Sporting News named Rice #2 on their list of 100 Greatest Football Players, behind only Jim Brown.
The NFL network did their top 100 players of all time list, and Rice was #1. Granted, many of their lists are out to lunch, but I think Rice was a good pick in this case. He was more dominant at his position than probably anyone else was at theirs, which is about the only way to judge players in football considering how different and specialized the game is. When you're doing a list of top running backs or quarterbacks of all time, there's always 5 or 6 players on the list, each with strong arguments to be made. When you're doing top receivers, Rice may as well be the only name on the list.
He has 1549 receptions (2nd place is over 400 back)
22,895 receiving yards (2nd place is TO, 6961 back)
197 receiving TDs (over 40 ahead of 2nd place)
208 total TDs (33 ahead of Emmitt Smith, a RB, who is 2nd)
His 1256 career points scored make him the highest scoring non-kicker in NFL history and place him 2nd of all time IIRC.
His 303 games played make him 1st among receivers by a huge margin.
Rice was also a good blocker, had incredible work ethic, and incredible competitiveness on the field.
Rice does have a certain level of old school toughness. I know most people have heard the stories of him laying bricks with his dad as a kid, but if you haven't it's a worthy piece of sports lore.
The Nolan Ryan comparison is only valid in terms of longevity. As far as being an all-time great in their sport, Howe is well ahead. Ryan is closer to Ron Francis than he is to Howe.
Ty Cobb was the first player that came to mind for me. Fitting that both played for Detroit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math
Ryan's peak greatness is debatable. He wasn't a Cy Young award level generally, but then he did throw more no-hitters than anyone.
Where he definitely falls short is the "all-around" department. He wasn't even an above average fielder or hitter. He could throw that speedball by ya, make you look like a fool and that's it. It would be like calling Manute Bol a great all-around player.
. . . Firmly eliminate Nolan Ryan from contention, in my opinion (and pending any rebuttal).
What made Howe Howe isn't just the longevity; its his dominant, all-around play through that long career that seperates him from the pack.
... really none of the guys weve' mentioned though are comparative to a hockey player, to Howe specifically. Though in several instances they competed in sports that could be physically taxing, they all lacked the total & deliberate physicality of life in the WHA/NHL.
Kinda. Though Cobb era baseball was nasty and dirty and taxing. At least if Cobb himself was sliding into 2nd base. Basketball can be physical... but it is not 40's-70's NHL!
For comparisons... Only the greats the best 5 or so of other sports should be compared to Howe.... So no Nolan Ryan or Pete Rose. Cobb is interesting. It is kind of the same era of the two sports too. Hockey was only a 6 team league... fighting to grow and get more exposure. Cobb was kind of in the same era of baseball though 40 years earlier. Ruth would finally really cement Baseball as a huge sport a little after Cobb. Expansion, Orr, Hull and Howe himself started hockey having that same American interest that was finallly cemented when Gretzky was traded to LA.
Hockey-Other North American Sports comparisions.
Morenz-Ruth Both loved and same era
Howe-Abdul Jabbar or Chamberlain. The best of the best in the era for long time
Harvey-Russell Defence more than offence. But the integral part of two long dynasties
R. Richard- Ruth. The icons and larger than life characters. In French Quebec Richard is bigger than Jesus.... and also had all the all-time records. I have a hockey card from 54-55... it says on it that Richard has the record for most goals and it likely won't every be broken! That of course happened... but like Ruth in New York.. he was bigger than life. For maybe 25-30% of the hockey playing world he was the biggest star of all time that will ever be. He was an icon of the quiet revolution. He is the most political important hockey player of all time.
Bobby Hull-Jim Brown- Mantle. All ***** in their personal lives. All physically superior athletes that utterly dominated their sports for a decade or so of prime.
Beliveau- Aaron or Mays or Musial. Class - Among or the best in the world for almost 2 decades.
Orr-Dimaggio/Williams - Short but utterly dominant careers. Legends. With longer careers they might have been #1.
Gretzky-Jordan-Ruth - All billion dollar assets to their sports. Made money and grew the sport and both #1 all-time.
Erving-Lafleur - The flash of the 70's. Elite excitement
Ryan's peak greatness is debatable. He wasn't a Cy Young award level generally, but then he did throw more no-hitters than anyone.
Where he definitely falls short is the "all-around" department. He wasn't even an above average fielder or hitter. He could throw that speedball by ya, make you look like a fool and that's it. It would be like calling Manute Bol a great all-around player.
Manute Bol is Hal Gill. He is not even close to a Chara.
Ryan was great. But he is overrated vastly by non expert baseball fans. What Howe did though is kinda like Ryan... except different. Ryan peaked far later in his career. It took him a long time to really be at his best... his peak physicality was gone but he got control. Howe was at his best at his peak in the late-40's to early 60's.... but after 35 he did some tremendous things like Ryan.
If you can pretend Clemens was not a drug cheat.... He has a career kinda like Howe's. the best in his early 20's at 24-4... and remaining right among the very best into his later 30's and 40's. Bonds is not a great comparison because unlike Bonds Howe was not at his best in his late 30's/40's but ust very close to the best.
I am no expert on Performance Enhancing Drugs.... or anything. But I have watched some Armstrong TV shows... and lots about the baseball cheats.... and accusations some of the current older NHL players and how they could be on HGH. Which I can think might be true. It is unlikely to me in 79/80 that Howe was on PEDs... like not likely at all. And he played ever regular season and playoff game at 15 mins a game likely... at 51/52 years old... and was a better than average player. That, to me, is the greatest story of longevity I can think of. He played EVERY GAME. That is the big thing. He didn't need occasional rest like old Mario or Lafleur. And he was over 10 years older!!! And he was not a place kicker or something... he was a 15 minute two-way NHL player. His skills and speed greatly diminished he still got 15 goals and 45 points!!!! it is absurd!!!! So in that capacity no one can ever compare.
He was more effective than Chelios in his last couple of seasons and was 5 years older!!!
Kinda. Though Cobb era baseball was nasty and dirty and taxing. At least if Cobb himself was sliding into 2nd base. Basketball can be physical... but it is not 40's-70's NHL!
For comparisons... Only the greats the best 5 or so of other sports should be compared to Howe.... So no Nolan Ryan or Pete Rose. Cobb is interesting. It is kind of the same era of the two sports too. Hockey was only a 6 team league... fighting to grow and get more exposure. Cobb was kind of in the same era of baseball though 40 years earlier. Ruth would finally really cement Baseball as a huge sport a little after Cobb. Expansion, Orr, Hull and Howe himself started hockey having that same American interest that was finallly cemented when Gretzky was traded to LA.
Hockey-Other North American Sports comparisions.
Morenz-Ruth Both loved and same era
Howe-Abdul Jabbar or Chamberlain. The best of the best in the era for long time
Harvey-Russell Defence more than offence. But the integral part of two long dynasties
R. Richard- Ruth. The icons and larger than life characters. In French Quebec Richard is bigger than Jesus.... and also had all the all-time records. I have a hockey card from 54-55... it says on it that Richard has the record for most goals and it likely won't every be broken! That of course happened... but like Ruth in New York.. he was bigger than life. For maybe 25-30% of the hockey playing world he was the biggest star of all time that will ever be. He was an icon of the quiet revolution. He is the most political important hockey player of all time.
Bobby Hull-Jim Brown- Mantle. All ***** in their personal lives. All physically superior athletes that utterly dominated their sports for a decade or so of prime.
Beliveau- Aaron or Mays or Musial. Class - Among or the best in the world for almost 2 decades.
Orr-Dimaggio/Williams - Short but utterly dominant careers. Legends. With longer careers they might have been #1.
Gretzky-Jordan-Ruth - All billion dollar assets to their sports. Made money and grew the sport and both #1 all-time.
Erving-Lafleur - The flash of the 70's. Elite excitement
Who's the Williams you're talking about? If it's Teddy Ballgame you're way off.
Yeah I think the closest anyone has come yet is the Kareem Abdul Jabbar comparison. Great longevity (21 yrs I believe, second all time in seasons and games played), great all-around player (11x 1st/2nd team all defense, fast enough to run the fast break, but strong/big enough in the paint to score on 56% of his shots, great passer out of the post, good free-throw shooter), Consistency (for 25 yrs was among the best basketball players on the planet, and yes I'm including his collegiate years in that because he was just literally on another planet during them),
Barry Sanders is a great comparison to Howe. He played 10 seasons and he finished in the top 5 rushing yards in all of them. Brown is a good comparison too though his era is a lot different. Walter Payton on the other hand didnt have a very good rookie season and in the strike-shortened 1982 season was 10th in rushing with 66.2 Y/G so he didnt have consecutive elite seasons.
Didnt Sanders really hang them up too early? Running backs have short lifespans and Sanders played 10 straight years with a heavy workload.
He left at the top of his game of his own volition, which is the antithesis of Howe.
Mixed martial arts might be a tad different than most sports, but Randy Couture deserves a mention here.
The man fought everyone thrown in front of him and was the first to ever win titles in 2 different weight classes. The man adapted with the sport and surprised everyone year after year.
He got beat up by 2 guys much bigger than him at age 40, losing the title to one who tested positive for Steroids after and was stripped of the belt. People thought his best days were behind him. He dropped down to light heavyweight and everyone thought he was going to get killed against a younger Chuck Liddell. Not only did he win, He outstruck the dangerous striker and beat him decicively.
Then he went on to dominate a young Tito Ortiz for 5 rounds to win the belt. Beating the top 2 UFC LHW's at age 40 dominantly.
They thought he was done again at age 45 when he told Dana White the heavyweight division was weak and that he could come back and win it. Dana laughed it off, but gave him the fight, and he just dominated the champ 5 rounds to win it at age 45, and then defended it against another top young gun.
French female cyclist Jeannie Longo (born October 1958) is great example. First competed in the Olympics in 1984, last time in 2008. Tried to get in this year but didn't succeed. Finished 4th in Olympic time trial in 2008 at the age of 49, won French national title at 52. A total of 15 French road race titles, 10 time trials. 5-time road race world champion (between 1985 and 1995) and one-time Olympic champion (1996)
Francisco Maria Churruca Iriondo Azpiazu Alcorta, known as Churruca or Patxi, the greatest backcourt player in Jai Alai history and certainly one of the top 2 or 3 players ever. Retired when he was 47 in 1983, still playing against world class players. Known as the Babe Ruth of Jai Alai.
Edwin Moses, 400 m hurdles. Between 1977 and 1987, Moses won 107 consecutive finals (122 consecutive races) and set the world record in his event four times.
