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Washington Post: Owners shouldn’t underestimate the Fehr factor

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Old
11-24-2012, 05:26 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd View Post
for those that dont know, thomas boswell is one of the truely elite sportswriters in north america. he is basically a baseball writer. his wisdom is unmatched on that subject. purely from the point of view that he knows what happened between fehr and baseball, he knows his crap. where it crosses with hockey....i'd tend to believe him.
The four biggest reasons that the MLB union was so strong were:
1 - Bud Selig and the owners were stupid to continue negotiating a new CBA while still playing just two years removed from another pro league (NHL) struck right before the playoffs and then there was the MLB strike. And they didn't even learn from their mistake when they did it again and the union threatened to strike and then got a deal. Not only that, the only reason it was all solved was because of the US government rather than negotiations.
2 - The NHL does not have owners like Steinbrenner and whoever owns the Phillies, Red Sox, Dodgers, etc... who are willing to pay 10's of millions of dollars both in revenue sharing AND luxury tax. These guys controlled Bud Selig, not the other way around.
3 - Fehr is damn smart. He has his plan. What that plan is I have no idea. But he is a master manipulator and will shape the situation to get the people around him to do what needs to be done according to his plan while continually talking about transperancy and this is all about the players making decisions. Not a criticism, just how I see it.
4 - The MLB union has been working with 20+ years of having all of the leverage due to those strikes. It's the opposite with the NHL and Bettman is the man in charge. Just because he "works for the owners and this is what they want" doesn't mean he is a shill and has the situation under his thumb. He is implementing the owners plan and doing whats best for the owners but he has the situation so that it will take a lot to put a stop to it.

Am I saying that nothing he said is true? No. Am I saying none of it can translate to the NHL? Not entirely. But it's not the same situation. Fehr is sitting across the table who is equally as smart, manipulative, in control, and down right ruthless as he is.

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11-24-2012, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by skywarp75 View Post
let me get this straight, the NHL tripled in revenue over 6 years, but you think they should follow Fehr's MLB style that helped reduce 75% of their fanbase? logic is your strong suit.
Revenue has tripled in six years???
MLB fanbase has reduced by 75 percent?

You have sources for this?

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11-24-2012, 05:48 PM
  #28
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Mike Gentile‏@MikeGentileTSN

From Thomas Boswell, Washington Post: "Hiring Don Fehr, to face NHL owners is like getting the Godfather to help you fix a parking ticket."

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11-24-2012, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Revenue has tripled in six years???
MLB fanbase has reduced by 75 percent?

You have sources for this?
NHL revenue while it did not triple did increase by 50% and the NHL saw growth in the first year.

After the 1994 strike MLB attendance dropped by 10k per game and didn't regain that until 2006. TV ratings dropped, and the overall stability of MLB franchises only recently recovered.

https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/...pdf?sequence=1

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11-24-2012, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepty View Post
Mike Gentile‏@MikeGentileTSN

From Thomas Boswell, Washington Post: "Hiring Don Fehr, to face NHL owners is like getting the Godfather to help you fix a parking ticket."
Killion@Killionhf

and facing the anti player/anti Fehr sentiments in the media and on these threads is like trying to stem the tide of Rhino Mounted Ubuntu Shock Troop Warriors in full stampede.


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11-24-2012, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LPHabsFan View Post
NHL revenue while it did not triple did increase by 50% and the NHL saw growth in the first year.

After the 1994 strike MLB attendance dropped by 10k per game and didn't regain that until 2006. TV ratings dropped, and the overall stability of MLB franchises only recently recovered.

https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/...pdf?sequence=1
It should also be noted this past year saw the World series suffer some of the worst ratings it has ever seen. Baseball, while it a better state than hockey, is far from being considered "in good standing."

What I find intriguing is how Fehr is so widely credited, yet his strike was among the primary reasons for the Expos relocation. No other union boss or commissioner can claim their tactics destroyed a franchise.

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11-24-2012, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
It should also be noted this past year saw the World series suffer some of the worst ratings it has ever seen. Baseball, while it a better state than hockey, is far from being considered "in good standing."

What I find intriguing is how Fehr is so widely credited, yet his strike was among the primary reasons for the Expos relocation. No other union boss or commissioner can claim their tactics destroyed a franchise.
Be careful. Some will come in here and claim that the NHL's southern expansion, despite the fact that it had already started and therefore not Bettman's own idea, led directly to the moving of the Jets and Nords. I don't see it that way but I'm sure some will....

Not only that, Fehr while he has made it phenomenal for the top end, has done nothing for the bottom end as since there is no floor teams can just pockey revenue sharing as pure profit with none of it going to the players. Oh, and let's not forget the amazing job he has done for player health and safety.....

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11-24-2012, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skywarp75 View Post
let me get this straight, the NHL tripled in revenue over 6 years, but you think they should follow Fehr's MLB style that helped reduce 75% of their fanbase? logic is your strong suit.
A. NHL hasn't tripled revenue in 6 years

B. Look at how much revenue in baseball has grown over the same time frame as you're talking about in hockey. It maybe becoming more regionalised and national ratings are sliding but they likely did over 8 billion dollars this past season, up from 5 billion in 2005. Their online properties maybe the most valuable in sports and their new TV deals are massive and could easily help push them over 9 billion once they kick in.

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11-24-2012, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
It should also be noted this past year saw the World series suffer some of the worst ratings it has ever seen. Baseball, while it a better state than hockey, is far from being considered "in good standing."

What I find intriguing is how Fehr is so widely credited, yet his strike was among the primary reasons for the Expos relocation. No other union boss or commissioner can claim their tactics destroyed a franchise.
I'd consider it to be in good standing, like I said in another post it's definitely becoming more regional but with the shift in TV watching habits, their 162 game schedule and loyal fan bases provide huge content and that's so valuable right now, it's why even with the ratings sliding they doubled all their TV deals. Their online properties are printing money and they have a great revenue sharing system.

There's definitely flaws in the baseball system and I'm not saying the NHL could replicate it, there's just not enough ability to earn but the troubles baseball face are WILDLY over-exaggerated here.

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11-24-2012, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
It should also be noted this past year saw the World series suffer some of the worst ratings it has ever seen. Baseball, while it a better state than hockey, is far from being considered "in good standing."

What I find intriguing is how Fehr is so widely credited, yet his strike was among the primary reasons for the Expos relocation. No other union boss or commissioner can claim their tactics destroyed a franchise.
Relocation isnt destruction.

And the Expos didnt move until 9 year after the strike. Yes 1995 was their best team, but it hardly guaranteed that the Expos would have become a stable franchise.

I dont really worry about year-to-year viewship numbers, either. They are very dependent on which teams are in the Series.

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11-24-2012, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by LPHabsFan View Post
After the 1994 strike MLB attendance dropped by 10k per game and didn't regain that until 2006. TV ratings dropped, and the overall stability of MLB franchises only recently recovered.
Actually, MLB attendance dropped by ~6K '94->'95, not 10K - and that was from inflated levels in '93-94, largely due to the expansion Marlins & Rockies (who played in the 62K+ seat Mile High those years). MLB attendance had recovered to pre-'93 levels by 1997 - despite the Mark & Sammy Show saved baseball meme.

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11-24-2012, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Look, the players have their interest.
The owners have their interest.

But there is something greater than the players and owners.

It's the NHL.

And the commissioner of this game apparently has no desire whatsoever to protect the integrity and reputation of the NHL.
The commisioner represents the owners. I'm not fond of the guy either, but exactly what do you suggest he do? Run the season anyways when so many teams can't turn a profit?

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11-24-2012, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
It should also be noted this past year saw the World series suffer some of the worst ratings it has ever seen. Baseball, while it a better state than hockey, is far from being considered "in good standing."

What I find intriguing is how Fehr is so widely credited, yet his strike was among the primary reasons for the Expos relocation. No other union boss or commissioner can claim their tactics destroyed a franchise.
What do you think would happen to the Stanley Cup Finals ratings if Columbus played Florida.

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11-24-2012, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by LPHabsFan View Post
NHL revenue while it did not triple did increase by 50% and the NHL saw growth in the first year.

After the 1994 strike MLB attendance dropped by 10k per game and didn't regain that until 2006. TV ratings dropped, and the overall stability of MLB franchises only recently recovered.

https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/...pdf?sequence=1
the NHL came back with two new rookie superstars and new rules.

I can't really remember much about baseball, as I'd practically given up on the sport by then.

I am not confident the league is going to have the same reception it had in 2006.
For one, we don't have any Crosbys and Ovechkins starting soon. We don't have excitement over the "new NHL."
And this lockout doesn't appeal to fans in the same way the the salary cap lockout did.

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11-24-2012, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Crumblin Erb Brooks View Post
Relocation isnt destruction.

And the Expos didnt move until 9 year after the strike. Yes 1995 was their best team, but it hardly guaranteed that the Expos would have become a stable franchise.
They would have almost certainly got a new stadium if it wasn't for the strike. It really was a game-changer for Montreal, in every way.

They were basically gone after 5-6 years but baseball owned them and kept them in limbo until Washington was ready iirc. They were even playing some home games in Puerto Rico the last year or two there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I am not confident the league is going to have the same reception it had in 2006.
For one, we don't have any Crosbys and Ovechkins starting soon. We don't have excitement over the "new NHL."
And this lockout doesn't appeal to fans in the same way the the salary cap lockout did.
Not to mention the US economy is a lot worse off now than it was seven years ago.

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11-24-2012, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
the NHL came back with two new rookie superstars and new rules.

I can't really remember much about baseball, as I'd practically given up on the sport by then.

I am not confident the league is going to have the same reception it had in 2006.
For one, we don't have any Crosbys and Ovechkins starting soon. We don't have excitement over the "new NHL."
And this lockout doesn't appeal to fans in the same way the the salary cap lockout did.
The whole another lockout on the heels of the old one is a huge factor too. I'm starting to think hockey really doesn't much matter to most of these people. Why should I believe in hockey as the magical, wonderful thing when these guys don't? I want the love of the game? Good. I'm trying to sign up this winter. NHL/NHLPA can shove off.

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11-24-2012, 08:19 PM
  #42
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They would have almost certainly got a new stadium if it wasn't for the strike. It really was a game-changer for Montreal, in every way.

They were basically gone after 5-6 years but baseball owned them and kept them in limbo until Washington was ready iirc. They were even playing some home games in Puerto Rico the last year or two there.
It wasnt the strike that doomed the Expos, it was the fire sale that followed it. The fans would have certainly came back if Larry Walker, Grissom, etc would have came back, but they werent. I think Alou and Pedro left not too long after as well. Blame ownership, not the strike. For Gods sake, it was JEFFERY ****ING LORIA who tried to get a new stadium in 1999. If anything, give the Quebec govt credit for not giving public money to that *******.

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In November 2001, MLB's owners voted 28–2 to contract by two teams—according to various sources, the Expos and the Minnesota Twins, both of which reportedly voted against contraction.[5] However, the Metropolitan Sports Facilities Commission, operator of Minnesota's Metrodome, received an injunction requiring the Twins to play in the Metrodome during 2002, so MLB could not eliminate the Expos alone while preserving its 162-game schedule.[5] In December, the Boston Red Sox accepted a purchase bid from a group led by John W. Henry, owner of the Florida Marlins,[5][6] and so Henry sold the Marlins to Loria, and MLB bought the Expos from Loria.[5] In the collective bargaining agreement signed with the players association in August 2002, contraction was prohibited through to the end of the contract in 2006.[7]
Fehr's MLBPA in fact EXTENDED the Expos time in the MLB in 2002. By then though, the writing was obviously on the wall for the Expos, they were going to be moved.

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11-24-2012, 08:30 PM
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Baseball used to be America's pastime, but years of labour strife basically turned people off of the game. Who cares if MLB has recovered from the post-strike attendance/ratings lows? The damage is done and they'll never be the top spectator sport in the US again.

So, yeah, don't underestimate Fehr and his penchant for pyrrhic victories...as long as A-Rod's making bazillions, who gives a ****?

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11-24-2012, 08:48 PM
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Baseball used to be America's pastime, but years of labour strife basically turned people off of the game. Who cares if MLB has recovered from the post-strike attendance/ratings lows? The damage is done and they'll never be the top spectator sport in the US again.

So, yeah, don't underestimate Fehr and his penchant for pyrrhic victories...as long as A-Rod's making bazillions, who gives a ****?
Years of labor strife....that one time that they lost part of a season to it...18 years ago?

And do you really think Bud Selig is worried that they are behind football in revenue, that they are "#2" sport in America? That they are #2 to a sport that they barely compete against in terms of timing (Baseball is April-October, football is October-January)? Do you think Bud Selig cant sleep at night because he cant keep people from watching football on Sundays? Do you think Bud Selig gives one damn about being #2 when every team is making money, and new TV contracts for MLB teams are astronomical?

You are loony if you think the MLB is in poor shape, and you are just not of this universe if you think Fehr caused it.

Blame the owners for not installing a salary cap if you have a problem with either of A-Rods contracts

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11-24-2012, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Crumblin Erb Brooks View Post
Years of labor strife....that one time that they lost part of a season to it...18 years ago?

And do you really think Bud Selig is worried that they are behind football in revenue, that they are "#2" sport in America? That they are #2 to a sport that they barely compete against in terms of timing (Baseball is April-October, football is October-January)? Do you think Bud Selig cant sleep at night because he cant keep people from watching football on Sundays? Do you think Bud Selig gives one damn about being #2 when every team is making money, and new TV contracts for MLB teams are astronomical?

You are loony if you think the MLB is in poor shape, and you are just not of this universe if you think Fehr caused it.

Blame the owners for not installing a salary cap if you have a problem with either of A-Rods contracts
Do you really think they could just "install" a salary cap? with master Fehr involved I'm sure the league would have to take a year off to battle him....baseball can't afford another work stoppage, I'm sure they remember the last nuclear bomb Fehr dropped and how long the fallout lasted from that one.

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11-24-2012, 09:33 PM
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Years of labor strife....that one time that they lost part of a season to it...18 years ago?
I think fan outrage is much larger when you strike during the world series, have replacement players and get the courts involved compared to a 'normal' lockout.

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11-24-2012, 09:48 PM
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Mike Gentile‏@MikeGentileTSN

From Thomas Boswell, Washington Post: "Hiring Don Fehr, to face NHL owners is like getting the Godfather to help you fix a parking ticket."
I thought this was an interesting quote as it is by the author of the article referenced in this thread .It is pretty well dead on too.

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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Killion@Killionhf

and facing the anti player/anti Fehr sentiments in the media and on these threads is like trying to stem the tide of Rhino Mounted Ubuntu Shock Troop Warriors in full stampede.
The sentiment in the first quote is by the subject of the thread,not a member of these boards. In any case though many of us distrust Fehr and have come to the conclusion that he is working for his own agenda, there is nothing even close to the insults and vilification hurled at him as there as at Bettman, here and elsewhere.

There are a lot of posters here who think Fehr is fabulous and dong everything possible for the players.
However there are some that are not of that opinion.


Last edited by pepty: 11-24-2012 at 09:59 PM.
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11-24-2012, 09:59 PM
  #48
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Do you really think they could just "install" a salary cap? with master Fehr involved I'm sure the league would have to take a year off to battle him....baseball can't afford another work stoppage, I'm sure they remember the last nuclear bomb Fehr dropped and how long the fallout lasted from that one.
True, I chose my words poorly, but the bottom line is that it falls on ownership/management to ultimately control their costs (including player salaries), especially in the MLB. No one held a gun to Steinbrenner (and whoever owned the Rangers back in the day) to pay Arod that much. Owners havent exactly actively bargained for it, either. And if they could guarantee a salary floor that would keep salary expenditures constant, I dont see why the MLBPA would completely oppose a cap.

And as other have said, sure the lost season hurt the MLB, but they came back. As someone else posted, 93-94 attendance numbers were inflated and by 97 they were back to normal (cannot confirm). But hockey lost an entire season and fans came back quickly. Thats part of the risk with collective bargaining. Efficient? Hardly, but hate the game, not the player.

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11-24-2012, 10:00 PM
  #49
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I thought this was an interesting quote as it is by the author of the article referenced in this thread .It is pretty well dead on too.
... his tweet's confusing (if I lived in Chicago in the 20's, knew Capone, got a Parking Ticket, Damn Straight Id ask Al to look after it for me so really, what does that even mean?) nor is it very creative. Mines a lot better, you dont need to outsource & import trash, go off hfboard's, wind up disappointed. Get with the program pepty. Don Fehr & the players are your friends. The NHL? Not so much.

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11-24-2012, 10:09 PM
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True, I chose my words poorly, but the bottom line is that it falls on ownership/management to ultimately control their costs (including player salaries), especially in the MLB. No one held a gun to Steinbrenner (and whoever owned the Rangers back in the day) guaranteto pay Arod that much. Owners havent exactly actively bargained for it, either. And if they could e a salary floor that would keep salary expenditures constant, I dont see why the MLBPA would completely oppose a cap.

And as other have said, sure the lost season hurt the MLB, but they came back. As someone else posted, 93-94 attendance numbers were inflated and by 97 they were back to normal (cannot confirm). But hockey lost an entire season and fans came back quickly. Thats part of the risk with collective bargaining. Efficient? Hardly, but hate the game, not the player.
But the point is a CBA is really to make a playing field as close to fair as possible, and yes owners do have to be protected from one another because they are competing against one another and trying to get an edge to make their team better.

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