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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VII: The Last Waltz "Cut the sheet & drop the puck!"

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Old
11-24-2012, 01:19 PM
  #601
frankthefrowner
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This is one side wanting to beat the other side. This isnt about the future of this sport or future players as the PA Said. Its about ego's and im not even talking about Gary and Don because if there constituents wanted a deal they would go make the deal. I even imagine at this point Gary and Don both fairly frustrated with the situation.

Both sides need to realize that this lockout has already done far more damage than the previous two. The apathy that a is being shown towards this situation on these boards alone is concerning let alone the rest of the leagues fan bases.

Fact is they are at this point arguing about nonsense, 50/50 splits of a theoretical amount of money like 3.3 billion dollars that DOES NOT exist anymore. They really are underestimating the damage being done. I hope they wake up but im doubtful.

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11-24-2012, 04:28 PM
  #602
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Originally Posted by frankthefrowner View Post
This is one side wanting to beat the other side. This isnt about the future of this sport or future players as the PA Said. Its about ego's and im not even talking about Gary and Don because if there constituents wanted a deal they would go make the deal. I even imagine at this point Gary and Don both fairly frustrated with the situation.
The moderate players moved Fehr to the offer that was made. All Bettman needs are 8 owners. Bettman and the Jacobites want the "win". Even though their latest shenanigans have just move galvanized the union more than the previous simple hatred of Bettman. The owners are going to be responsible for the cancelation of this season, and the subsequent late start of the next one. If there is a next one. Far as I am concerned, at that point, the NHL can rot and fold. And Bettman can live with that on his resume.

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11-24-2012, 08:20 PM
  #603
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The moderate players moved Fehr to the offer that was made. All Bettman needs are 8 owners. Bettman and the Jacobites want the "win". Even though their latest shenanigans have just move galvanized the union more than the previous simple hatred of Bettman. The owners are going to be responsible for the cancelation of this season, and the subsequent late start of the next one. If there is a next one. Far as I am concerned, at that point, the NHL can rot and fold. And Bettman can live with that on his resume.
Both parties are responsible for the outcome.

Everyone knows Jacobs. Everyone knew Bettman's moves.

Anyone going up against the owners group knew we would be here months ago. Either the PA knew or the leaders aren't very bright? The players have already lost 630 million and are continuing to fight. The only question is how much more will they lose? The more the owners lose.... the more the players lose (what's 50% of nothing?). If we all walk away from the sport how much will the players make? If the players were fighting for money they would have put forward a more aggressive offer earlier and the lockout would be over. So... a point can be made that the PA forced the cancellation of the season not the NHL. If the NHL rots everyone had a hand in deciding the fate of the league. Neither side comes out a winner or a victim.

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11-24-2012, 08:35 PM
  #604
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Originally Posted by ltrangerfan View Post
Both parties are responsible for the outcome.

Everyone knows Jacobs. Everyone knew Bettman's moves.

Anyone going up against the owners group knew we would be here months ago. Either the PA knew or the leaders aren't very bright? The players have already lost 630 million and are continuing to fight. The only question is how much more will they lose? The more the owners lose.... the more the players lose (what's 50% of nothing?). If we all walk away from the sport how much will the players make? If the players were fighting for money they would have put forward a more aggressive offer earlier and the lockout would be over. So... a point can be made that the PA forced the cancellation of the season not the NHL. If the NHL rots everyone had a hand in deciding the fate of the league. Neither side comes out a winner or a victim.
bingo. both sides are to blame. and both sides should realize that they both won't get everything that they want and salvage the best deal they can get now before they do too much damage to the league.

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11-24-2012, 08:36 PM
  #605
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interesting note from the main board lockout thread.

Per the TSN panel, sides could be set for marathon meetings this week. Would get going mid-week, have next couple days to set something up.

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11-24-2012, 08:58 PM
  #606
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Originally Posted by trueblue9441 View Post
interesting note from the main board lockout thread.

Per the TSN panel, sides could be set for marathon meetings this week. Would get going mid-week, have next couple days to set something up.
I think both sides realize they are too close considering the stakes involved to not get something worked out. I predict a season of about 56-52 games with a Late December/New Years start. Watching a little of the Cornell-Michigan game made me realize how much I miss the NHL!

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11-24-2012, 09:01 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by Bickel41 View Post
I think both sides realize they are too close considering the stakes involved to not get something worked out. I predict a season of about 56-52 games with a Late December/New Years start. Watching a little of the Cornell-Michigan game made me realize how much I miss the NHL!
I thinking they will agree on a 60+ game schedule, whatever the number of games is that the NHL receives a 100% from sponsors. If this does happen great!!! I hope this charity game tonight lights a fire under both groups and I agree with the espn radio guys that shame on all the television stations that did not show this game!

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11-24-2012, 09:22 PM
  #608
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Originally Posted by trueblue9441 View Post
interesting note from the main board lockout thread.

Per the TSN panel, sides could be set for marathon meetings this week. Would get going mid-week, have next couple days to set something up.
Meetings not going to start until mid week? Glad to see a sense of urgency.

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11-24-2012, 11:40 PM
  #609
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Urgency would have been September not Nov./Dec...

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11-24-2012, 11:58 PM
  #610
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If the reports or marathon meetings are true and the PA wakes up and realizes the NHL wont back off the $211 million Make Whole figure, then I see an agreement by Friday and a 55-60 game season starting up by Christmas.

If not then you can kiss hockey goodbye until next September at the very least.

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11-25-2012, 06:01 AM
  #611
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The PA backing off? Management needs to back off.

Quote:
Fehr added that the single biggest difference continues to be the league’s unwillingness to accept that player contractual rights moving forward is critical to getting a new deal.
http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-phil...695&feedID=695

Quote:
“[We’re] in a circumstance in which – if the cap is going to be limited – the player contracting rights, which is where the individual player has an opportunity to get his share of the pie, have to be constricted too,” Fehr said. “And those become more, not less, important to players as cap space is limited. When you add to that that the rights of the players they believe they must maintain are what they got in the last negotiation in return for massive concessions there, it becomes very difficult.”
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/f...n-chatter.html

Cap space will be limited. Management will get their gains to make the cap tighter. This CBA won't be the friend of the big market team such as the Rangers.

Quote:
The common-sense path to a negotiated settlement is clear: The union agrees to pro-rate on this season’s make-whole, a concession (another concession) of approximately $45 million while the league relents on its demands to impose contractual restrictions that would damage every player’s negotiating ability for the entirety of their careers and would be to the detriment of big market franchises.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_...2P34Z9E0MbV9cN

Free agency and salary arbitration are VERY important to the Fehr brothers. Go look at their wars with MLB.

The players need to back off?

Bettman will get his 50-50. The players don't want to take a beating in escrow going from 57% to 50%. There is no escrow system in the NFL. The NBA has an escrow system but they have a soft cap and luxury tax system. Different system to the NHL system.

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11-25-2012, 01:20 PM
  #612
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This thread reminds me of the knee jerk reactions we used to see in game day threads. If you want to suitably judge a hockey player it has to be done over a long period of time, the same can be said for multi billion dollar labor negotiations - both are a process.

The extremism being shown is comical - especially the ones who are convinced each tweet spells doom for not only this season, but the next one as well.

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11-25-2012, 01:36 PM
  #613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post

Bettman will get his 50-50. The players don't want to take a beating in escrow going from 57% to 50%. There is no escrow system in the NFL. The NBA has an escrow system but they have a soft cap and luxury tax system. Different system to the NHL system.
cap on escrow is a good fix for this. if im not mistaken, i believe the NBA has that as part of their latest CBA.

article 20 of the NBA CBA. http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm

10% cap one escrow.

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11-25-2012, 03:47 PM
  #614
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The PA backing off? Management needs to back off.



http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-phil...695&feedID=695



http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/f...n-chatter.html

Cap space will be limited. Management will get their gains to make the cap tighter. This CBA won't be the friend of the big market team such as the Rangers.



http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_...2P34Z9E0MbV9cN

Free agency and salary arbitration are VERY important to the Fehr brothers. Go look at their wars with MLB.

The players need to back off?

Bettman will get his 50-50. The players don't want to take a beating in escrow going from 57% to 50%. There is no escrow system in the NFL. The NBA has an escrow system but they have a soft cap and luxury tax system. Different system to the NHL system.
This lockout is especially terrible as an NYR fan. There is literally no way that anything good can come of this for us. We miss hockey while we have arguably our most competitive roster in years, and when it comes back the cap will be lower and the roster will have to be dismantled.

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11-25-2012, 04:35 PM
  #615
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This lockout is especially terrible as an NYR fan. There is literally no way that anything good can come of this for us. We miss hockey while we have arguably our most competitive roster in years, and when it comes back the cap will be lower and the roster will have to be dismantled.
And yet, a 50-60 game season starting around New Year's is probably the best possible scenario for the Rangers title hopes, considering their style of play and Gaborik's status

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11-25-2012, 05:09 PM
  #616
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Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL

Since NHLPA won't cave 100% and the owners' meeting is not until Dec. 5, there's going to be a lull in "negotiations."

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11-25-2012, 05:13 PM
  #617
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Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL

Since NHLPA won't cave 100% and the owners' meeting is not until Dec. 5, there's going to be a lull in "negotiations."
So much for those Marathon negotiations that were supposed to take place next week.

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11-25-2012, 05:15 PM
  #618
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Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL

Since NHLPA won't cave 100% and the owners' meeting is not until Dec. 5, there's going to be a lull in "negotiations."
No rush.

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11-26-2012, 07:18 AM
  #619
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The NHL players lost 4% of their salaries to escrow in the 2005 CBA. Mathieu Schneider of the PA brought up the idea about a cap on escrow a few weeks ago. The NHL came up with the "make whole" in October with it being funded by the players. Then the NHL decided to fund it. The NHL and NHLPA can't agree on the numbers. Steve Fehr says the "make whole" should really be called "transition payments".

Don Fehr wants amnesty buyouts

Quote:
Amnesty has not even been addressed in meetings, Fehr confirmed. But he says it will.
https://twitter.com/BroadStBull/stat...72301214261248

They haven't discussed the transition stuff. They haven't discussed the ordinary course buyouts either.

The PA has proposed salaries in excess of $1M in the AHL count against the cap but

Quote:
The amount in excess of $1M paid to a player while in the minor leagues or in Europe on an NHL contract counts against the cap (none counts against the share). This applies only to new contracts, i.e., contracts entered into after a new CBA is in effect.
http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...fer-to-the-nhl

The fine print. The NHL won't go for that. They probably want it to begin with current SPCs and don't like the $ amount. The NHL wants it at $105,000. The Toronto Star said it would be the NHL minimum salary. Fehr wants amnesty buyouts. So do some NHL teams.

The PA's proposal of using 20% to determine the salary range is almost equal to the previous system of adding 5% to the mid-point and then adding $8M. The NHL moved in the PA direction with the % instead of $16M. The NHL proposal doesn't include 5%. The NHL may not like the 20% number proposed by the PA. The NHL proposed $51.9M as a mid-point in October based on a full 82 game season.

$10.38M. $41.52M-$62.28M salary range. Almost $21M difference.


Last edited by RangerBoy: 11-26-2012 at 07:27 AM.
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11-26-2012, 10:17 AM
  #620
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The NHL players lost 4% of their salaries to escrow in the 2005 CBA. Mathieu Schneider of the PA brought up the idea about a cap on escrow a few weeks ago. The NHL came up with the "make whole" in October with it being funded by the players. Then the NHL decided to fund it. The NHL and NHLPA can't agree on the numbers. Steve Fehr says the "make whole" should really be called "transition payments".

Don Fehr wants amnesty buyouts



https://twitter.com/BroadStBull/stat...72301214261248

They haven't discussed the transition stuff. They haven't discussed the ordinary course buyouts either.

The PA has proposed salaries in excess of $1M in the AHL count against the cap but



http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...fer-to-the-nhl

The fine print. The NHL won't go for that. They probably want it to begin with current SPCs and don't like the $ amount. The NHL wants it at $105,000. The Toronto Star said it would be the NHL minimum salary. Fehr wants amnesty buyouts. So do some NHL teams.

The PA's proposal of using 20% to determine the salary range is almost equal to the previous system of adding 5% to the mid-point and then adding $8M. The NHL moved in the PA direction with the % instead of $16M. The NHL proposal doesn't include 5%. The NHL may not like the 20% number proposed by the PA. The NHL proposed $51.9M as a mid-point in October based on a full 82 game season.

$10.38M. $41.52M-$62.28M salary range. Almost $21M difference.
Sounds like they're far apart.

If no negotiations until Dec 5 (owners mtg) then the owners might as well put forth a non negotiable offer to the pA and give them a closing date for the season. Any agreement later than mid Dec brings us into a mid Jan start at the earliest? How many games could be played and when will the playoffs end? Incremental negotiations are worthless at this point.

I would have no problem if the PA wants to give the owners a 'take it or cancel the season offer" to consider by Dec 5.

It' time for everyone to put their cards on the table and stop trying to come up with creative ways to avoid putting forth a materially improved offer.


Last edited by ltrangerfan: 11-26-2012 at 10:30 AM.
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Old
11-26-2012, 10:56 AM
  #621
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Originally Posted by ltrangerfan View Post

I would have no problem if the PA wants to give the owners a 'take it or cancel the season offer" to consider by Dec 5.
Thats nice of you.

Unfortunately, a lot of people would have a problem with it - starting with the PA.

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11-26-2012, 11:03 AM
  #622
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@SunGarrioch: Bill Daly says in an email to QMI Agency he expects bargaining to resume this week. "Don't have anything set yet," writes Daly. #NHL #NHLPA

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11-26-2012, 01:54 PM
  #623
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"@reporterchris: While CBA negotiations are likely to be held this week, the NHL isn't planning to come with a new offer."

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11-26-2012, 02:03 PM
  #624
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“@Real_ESPNLeBrun: Federal mediator now involved in NHL/NHLPA labor talks. More to come.”

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11-26-2012, 02:06 PM
  #625
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Mediator. They need two mediators.

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