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Morgan Rielly discussion thread.

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Old
11-23-2012, 10:55 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by indigobuffalo View Post
I believe there is a limit of 2 or 3 invites from Junior. The point of this thread, I assume, would be to determine if it's worth using one of those spots to give a guy like Rielly a "look" when other players that might benefit from the experience a bit more (like McKegg, Blacker or others who played Junior last year).

Rielly is a virtual lock to make the NHL within a year or so. All his development needs is time to bulk up his frame a bit, and a season in the Juniors would be a great way to do that.
During the season guys aren't putting on much bulk, that's more of an off-season thing, if I'm not mistaken. I would say that a huge part of his development needs is tougher competition, as well as getting a chance to play with better players as well. All I've been hearing so far out of Moose Jaw is that Rielly is far-and-away the best player on his team and would be doing so much better if his teammates were closer to his skill-level. Giving him a small taste of what it's going to be like, not even at the next level (AHL, where he might never see a single game, for all we know), but at the absolute highest level, will show him what areas he needs to work on in Junior, where all of his areas already seem beyond developed.

I'm not saying definitely keep him up for the shortened season, should there be one, but if a player is too good for their current League, especially when that player is as highly touted as Rielly, you owe it to them to challenge them when you can, because that's what's going to help them grow as players. Training camp would the the perfect thing for a guy like Rielly, gets him used to the faster pace, gets him acquainted with his future teammates... then when he goes back down to Junior he has all of these things that he now knows he needs to work on, and a better understanding of what it's going to take to translate/adapt his game to the NHL level, without the pressure of trying to go through that learning curve in a packed ACC every night.

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11-23-2012, 11:09 AM
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No. I'd give him 9 games to get his feet wet if he had an 82-game schedule but thats not going to happen. I think he should play the season out in MJ as he missed almost an entire year of development last season. Build strength in his legs and confidence playing with guys his own age group and once he dominates those kids he can play in the NHL next season

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11-23-2012, 11:30 AM
  #28
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I personally believe that Morgan Rielly would be better off in the NHL. He is in as good of shape as any player in the NHL. Hes above the WHL learning curve, and hes not on a team that is providing him necessary support. I cant see this negatively affecting his development. He has the tools that are needed to be successful in the nhl. Fast skater with strong legs, quick hands and top end decision making/ hockey IQ. Hes a top pairing defenseman for the Canada junior team. Can't see how getting him with players that play at his level of compete could possibly hurt him. Raising the intensity raises the competitiveness in the player. I would hate to see him get complacent on a team that is extremely lackluster offesnively. It really takes the wind out of your sails when you try as hard as you can, however cannot achieve success. I've gone through it playing on a terrible team as one of the better players. Production went down, my overal game plummitted. Was moved to a better team with better players and the game instantly came back to me.

Morgan has almost already gotten through more then a quarter of the whl seasoning. Thats plenty of seasoning for me.

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11-23-2012, 02:51 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by WeWantACup View Post
Brian Burke

"If we're fortunate enough to play," Burke said, the Leafs would be bringing defenceman Reilly into camp. Ditto 2011 draft choice David Broll, currently succeeding in the OHL.

"Those kids deserve that shot," Burke said. "I want to put them in a position that, if we're able to play, the coaches have a decision to make on those players."

Its not just camp, based on his quote.
What possible decision would they have on Broll being an NHL player at this time, saying this would indicate all of us just fell off the Turnip Truck.

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11-23-2012, 04:23 PM
  #30
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http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2012/...n_rielly_pick/

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I sampled a few scouts this week and asked them a couple of questions:

1. Could Reilly have been on top of a team's list?

2. If there were a do-over of the draft, would Rielly move up based on his play this season and what seems to be a strong comeback from his ACL patch-up?

There seemed to be a split on question No. 1.

Said one Western Conference scout:

"I'd say Rielly might have been (the overall No. 1) for an organization based on what he had done before. I liked him more than Ryan Murray (the Everett defenceman who went No. 2 overall to Columbus). He has more upside, more play-making offensive ability. Murray will be a good player but the creative part of the game, that's Rielly's strength. Murray would be the sound defensive player who would allow a player like Rielly or Ryan Murphy to go do his thing. And I see Rielly as a better risk-reward bet than Murphy -- the upside with Rielly might be higher and there's less risk of him not being able to help you. I'd say No. 1 overall (for Rielly) is defensible."

Another Western Conference scout who had Rielly further down his list last June said: "I liked him but I would have had trouble taking him at No. 5, never mind No. 1."

I heard more of the skepticism about Burke's claimed ranking of Rielly rather than support, but if it's plausible to any other organization then it was plausible, period.

On question No. 2 there was something close to the consensus.

One representative scouting report from a western regional scout went as follows:

"(Rielly) has been really strong. He was great in the (Subway) series against the Russians and he's better and better as the season goes on. He's a great skater, right at the top of his class, and you get a sense that he's not 100 per cent back. That's going to take a full season. A lockout doesn't hurt him at all. The fact that he can play at this level as he builds the leg strength back up is better than trying to do it (in the NHL). Based on what he's done so far this season, I'd have him ahead of Murray. Significantly. If he was the Leafs' No. 1 overall on their list, I'd say congratulations, that's a good pick."

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11-23-2012, 04:44 PM
  #31
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What about Schenn? Was he not rushed?

I wouldn't mind him coming to training camp but don't put him as a roster player yet. Let him develop first. Put him in the AHL next year then allow him to play for the leafs.
I don't think Schenn was rushed at all, he had a strong camp and impressed the coaches enough to stick around full time. The thing that ruined Schenn IMO was the system he was in, Wilson employed a speedy high risk/reward uptempo sysem which meant Schenn had to jump up in the rush and use his limited offensive skills, basically in other words Schenn had to rely on his weaknesses to thrive here.

IMO I really think Kadri was rushed though- Kadri had an amazing juniour career, then he comes to camp and gets put in the AHL all fine steps and then it came undone when he was called up not even 1/4 of the way through the season. Kadri was called up because our offense went sour and its' clear Kadri was never ready to be called up, he was still a sup-par skater, very weak lower body strength he also tried to be too "cute" with the puck instead of making the right play. I really think Kadri should have remained in the AHL for the entire season that way he could develeop his game properly and then come to the next training camp ready to fight for a job.

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11-24-2012, 09:07 AM
  #32
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On Finding Inspiration, and Morgan Rielly keeping his…

One of our writers response to my question of weather or not Rielly should be invited to camp. He seems to have a different view point.


http://wewantacup.com/headlines/1045...ly-keeping-his


Last edited by WeWantACup: 11-24-2012 at 01:01 PM. Reason: better explanation of the link now that it has been moved to this thread. Where it should be in fact. Thanks for the patience
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11-24-2012, 09:23 AM
  #33
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We have a Morgan Rielly discussion thread. Please use it.

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11-24-2012, 09:47 AM
  #34
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Why would we want to expose the first truly elite prospect we've had in the last 20 years to a bunch of players that would be lucky to make most other teams AHL squad. (please note sarcasm here)

Whether it's just the training camp or also the ensuing 9 games, Rielly's development would be greatly enhanced by having quality players around him to play with and against. As other posters have said the first priority is the WJC where the level of competition would truly push him, then the TC of the Leafs, and then perhaps 9 games. Finally, if at all possible he should be traded to a better WHL team.

EDIT: Unless he clearly demonstrates he is the next coming of Bobby Orr, he should go back to junior as he's worth a lot more to the Leafs 7 years down the road for a full season than a half season this year as an 18 year old.

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11-24-2012, 09:37 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
No. I'd give him 9 games to get his feet wet if he had an 82-game schedule but thats not going to happen. I think he should play the season out in MJ as he missed almost an entire year of development last season. Build strength in his legs and confidence playing with guys his own age group and once he dominates those kids he can play in the NHL next season
I agree with this. If it were the full season and there were to be a "normal" training camp I would say let him come and let him play a few NHL games (if he seemed ready for it)...but at this point I'd just let him play out the year in jr.

Any thoughts on his chances of getting invited to the IIHF WC this year? I know Murray got a bit of time last year (although, only b/c someone else got injured). Toews and Eberle also got to play before they made the NHL.

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Why would we want to expose the first truly elite prospect we've had in the last 20 years to a bunch of players that would be lucky to make most other teams AHL squad. (please note sarcasm here)

Whether it's just the training camp or also the ensuing 9 games, Rielly's development would be greatly enhanced by having quality players around him to play with and against. As other posters have said the first priority is the WJC where the level of competition would truly push him, then the TC of the Leafs, and then perhaps 9 games. Finally, if at all possible he should be traded to a better WHL team.

EDIT: Unless he clearly demonstrates he is the next coming of Bobby Orr, he should go back to junior as he's worth a lot more to the Leafs 7 years down the road for a full season than a half season this year as an 18 year old.
I'm surprised we haven't heard more about him getting traded (or perhaps I just haven't heard it). MJ is a bad team and he probably won't be back next year anyway. I'm sure there are a number of teams who'd like to have him to help on a Memorial Cup run...and MJ could get something back to help with a rebuild.

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11-24-2012, 10:03 PM
  #36
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Not too familiar with CHL trading rules, but Morgan can only be traded within the whl right? And to those saying that being on a crappy team could slow his development, couldnt it work the other way around too? He seems like a very determined young man, maybe being forced to carry the load offensively and defensively could help him improve his defensive game more than he would simply being the go-to guy on offense alone. However I would love to see him in the Memorial Cup...

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11-24-2012, 11:41 PM
  #37
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I personally believe that Morgan Rielly would be better off in the NHL. He is in as good of shape as any player in the NHL. Hes above the WHL learning curve, and hes not on a team that is providing him necessary support. I cant see this negatively affecting his development. He has the tools that are needed to be successful in the nhl. Fast skater with strong legs, quick hands and top end decision making/ hockey IQ. Hes a top pairing defenseman for the Canada junior team. Can't see how getting him with players that play at his level of compete could possibly hurt him. Raising the intensity raises the competitiveness in the player. I would hate to see him get complacent on a team that is extremely lackluster offesnively. It really takes the wind out of your sails when you try as hard as you can, however cannot achieve success. I've gone through it playing on a terrible team as one of the better players. Production went down, my overal game plummitted. Was moved to a better team with better players and the game instantly came back to me.

Morgan has almost already gotten through more then a quarter of the whl seasoning. Thats plenty of seasoning for me.
I agree with a majority of your post but one thing stood out to me here.. You said Rielly is in as good of shape as anyone in the NHL.. I think this is a bit of a stretch.. His size isn't up to par with the NHL level to begin with.. He needs to get bigger.. But another thing is that just because he's playing 30 minutes against kids that are 19 and younger.. Doesn't prove that he's ready for the full NHL grind. The guy just came off a very serious knee injury and he needs time to get back. I think he still needs to gain and put on some serious size before we consider the NHL. It's his strength I'm more worried about and the grind of NHL hockey.. It's just not comparable to the WHL because they aren't full grown men who are hitting him or going after him.. These are kids his size and his age.. Big difference there and that's the curve that he's going to have to get over.

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11-25-2012, 01:31 AM
  #38
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Keep him in junior this year. Invite him to camp next season then send him back to junior, when junior season ends bring him up to the AHL for the rest of the season. Then play him in the AHL until he earns a roster spot, or wins one in camp.

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11-25-2012, 03:59 AM
  #39
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Not too familiar with CHL trading rules, but Morgan can only be traded within the whl right? And to those saying that being on a crappy team could slow his development, couldnt it work the other way around too? He seems like a very determined young man, maybe being forced to carry the load offensively and defensively could help him improve his defensive game more than he would simply being the go-to guy on offense alone. However I would love to see him in the Memorial Cup...
yes, only in the whl. i think there's an exception if the team waived him and no other team picked him up - but (1) i might not be right on that one; and (2) if i am, there's no chance it would happen.

but in any event, the MJ can't just trade him to the London Knights or the Halifax Mooseheads.

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I agree with a majority of your post but one thing stood out to me here.. You said Rielly is in as good of shape as anyone in the NHL.. I think this is a bit of a stretch.. His size isn't up to par with the NHL level to begin with.. He needs to get bigger.. But another thing is that just because he's playing 30 minutes against kids that are 19 and younger.. Doesn't prove that he's ready for the full NHL grind. The guy just came off a very serious knee injury and he needs time to get back. I think he still needs to gain and put on some serious size before we consider the NHL. It's his strength I'm more worried about and the grind of NHL hockey.. It's just not comparable to the WHL because they aren't full grown men who are hitting him or going after him.. These are kids his size and his age.. Big difference there and that's the curve that he's going to have to get over.
whether that's accurate or not (i know you didn't say it) there's a big difference b/w fitness and strength. he needs to bulk up...and you're right about the knee injury, too. let him finish recovering for it.

as i noted in my post above, my opinion would be different if this was september...but i figure the earliest we'll see nhl is jan. and i think just let him play out the yr in jr. i don't think it will be damaging for an extra few months.

then let him workout all summer, gain more strength, and come into camp (potentially...hopefully?) ready to go.

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Keep him in junior this year. Invite him to camp next season then send him back to junior, when junior season ends bring him up to the AHL for the rest of the season. Then play him in the AHL until he earns a roster spot, or wins one in camp.
this is pretty much my opinion. the one concern is that if comes into camp in sept. and isn't quite ready for the nhl (i think he will be ... but if he's not there's no shame b/c he'll only be 19). the problem is the leafs can't send him to the ahl next season, i don't think...so it will either be NHL or back to the WHL.


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11-25-2012, 08:52 AM
  #40
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Tempting to see how he fits on an NHL blue line. Let him get a taste of training camp next year but I don't think you should rush a guy who hasn't played a full season in a few years. Let's see how he fairs this season even. He may need another junior year or if he has nothing left to prove there, a season in the AHL will help him prepare better for the NHL.

Even if he plays "lights out" at training camp it is no guarantee he won't be exposed as the long season progresses. I recall the reasoning for having Schenn stay was based on his defensive style of game, which reduced the risk of exposing his weaknesses. Rielly is an offensive D first, with good defense, but it not his forte. He will undoubtedly be cought up ice regardless of how fast he is, Gardiner suffered some defensive lapses as well and needed to be shut down mid season to reset/recharge. Not sure if the leafs/Rielly can afford to do that next time we have hockey.

Let him use the development league as it is supposed to be used. He will be better for it.

As for him taking a spot from another player, they have over 50 players to camp...plenty of room.

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11-25-2012, 09:25 AM
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Yes.

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11-25-2012, 09:48 AM
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I don't understand why he wouldnt.

Few articles and reports indicate Carlyle thinks he's ready for the big club.

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11-25-2012, 10:02 AM
  #43
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I agree with a majority of your post but one thing stood out to me here.. You said Rielly is in as good of shape as anyone in the NHL.. I think this is a bit of a stretch.. His size isn't up to par with the NHL level to begin with.. He needs to get bigger.. But another thing is that just because he's playing 30 minutes against kids that are 19 and younger.. Doesn't prove that he's ready for the full NHL grind. The guy just came off a very serious knee injury and he needs time to get back. I think he still needs to gain and put on some serious size before we consider the NHL. It's his strength I'm more worried about and the grind of NHL hockey.. It's just not comparable to the WHL because they aren't full grown men who are hitting him or going after him.. These are kids his size and his age.. Big difference there and that's the curve that he's going to have to get over.
6'0'' 205 pounds His size really isn't the issue since he weighs more than Kris Letang in that department. (And I'm sure many others too, I just used Letang as a reference because of the comparison.) For an offensive dman he is the right size for the NHL, he doesn't need to get bigger especially if it ends up inhibiting his speed like it did for others. However, Rielly's stength (which is actually near the top his draft class) is only a problem because he doesn't use that strength to his advantage physically. I think the only real problem keeping him from the NHL is the long season of hockey that he wasn't familiar with last year. It's hard to put a kid in that situation when he didn't even play a full season of hockey last year.

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11-25-2012, 10:20 AM
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Tempting to see how he fits on an NHL blue line. Let him get a taste of training camp next year but I don't think you should rush a guy who hasn't played a full season in a few years. Let's see how he fairs this season even. He may need another junior year or if he has nothing left to prove there, a season in the AHL will help him prepare better for the NHL.

Even if he plays "lights out" at training camp it is no guarantee he won't be exposed as the long season progresses. I recall the reasoning for having Schenn stay was based on his defensive style of game, which reduced the risk of exposing his weaknesses. Rielly is an offensive D first, with good defense, but it not his forte. He will undoubtedly be cought up ice regardless of how fast he is, Gardiner suffered some defensive lapses as well and needed to be shut down mid season to reset/recharge. Not sure if the leafs/Rielly can afford to do that next time we have hockey.

Let him use the development league as it is supposed to be used. He will be better for it.

As for him taking a spot from another player, they have over 50 players to camp...plenty of room.
I wouldn't mind giving him a 9 game trial and what not in the NHL, however I still prefer the man goes back to the juniors and finishes all that he can learn. He probably has the physique to be in NHL Imo or very close to it, he is a gym rat is also another reason it's possible. I still follow the rule of slow and steady wins the race hence I don't mind if he takes his time to get to the NHL. Give him the amount of time needed or more to get the maximum amount of potential out of him.

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11-25-2012, 11:28 AM
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What possible decision would they have on Broll being an NHL player at this time, saying this would indicate all of us just fell off the Turnip Truck.
Are they hoping he'd be an enforcer, replacing Orr?

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11-25-2012, 11:32 AM
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I agree with a majority of your post but one thing stood out to me here.. You said Rielly is in as good of shape as anyone in the NHL.. I think this is a bit of a stretch.. His size isn't up to par with the NHL level to begin with.. He needs to get bigger.. But another thing is that just because he's playing 30 minutes against kids that are 19 and younger.. Doesn't prove that he's ready for the full NHL grind. The guy just came off a very serious knee injury and he needs time to get back. I think he still needs to gain and put on some serious size before we consider the NHL. It's his strength I'm more worried about and the grind of NHL hockey.. It's just not comparable to the WHL because they aren't full grown men who are hitting him or going after him.. These are kids his size and his age.. Big difference there and that's the curve that he's going to have to get over.
Playing against the Russians wasn't easy for him. I'm not sure he showed he's physically ready for playing against mature men.

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11-25-2012, 05:18 PM
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Playing against the Russians wasn't easy for him. I'm not sure he showed he's physically ready for playing against mature men.
Its kind of a catch-22 for him, tho.

He cant play in the A, where he would be able to learn playing against older, more mature players...

Staying in the W wont help him either, as he pretty much dominates most of the players there.

Playing in the NHL might be his best course of action. It would definitely give him the experience he needs, and would also allow someone to mentor him (something that he is lacking while playing in the W).


Personally, i would definitely bring him to camp, and probably give him the 9-game stint with the big club, just to show him what to expect the following year, then send him back to Junior. It is valuable information he can use to find out what needs to improve in his game, then implement it in a lower-stress enviroment.

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11-25-2012, 05:28 PM
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He should definitly be at camp , even if it's just for the experience to see what it's all about. It couldn't hurt him and I'm sure he'd tell you it benefited him during next season's camp. He won't be as nervous next time around and he can relax and be focused. I'll be dissapointed if he wasn't.

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11-25-2012, 05:56 PM
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Rielly's fate should be determined at camp, no by what Luke Schenn turned out as. Drew Doughty made it right out of the OHL. How do we know we dont have a similar talen on our hands? Alex Pitrangelo was brought along kind of slowly with some ups and downs but he eventually blossomed.

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11-26-2012, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
6'0'' 205 pounds His size really isn't the issue since he weighs more than Kris Letang in that department. (And I'm sure many others too, I just used Letang as a reference because of the comparison.) For an offensive dman he is the right size for the NHL, he doesn't need to get bigger especially if it ends up inhibiting his speed like it did for others. However, Rielly's stength (which is actually near the top his draft class) is only a problem because he doesn't use that strength to his advantage physically. I think the only real problem keeping him from the NHL is the long season of hockey that he wasn't familiar with last year. It's hard to put a kid in that situation when he didn't even play a full season of hockey last year.
The whole point of my post was the fact that his body is not ready for the grind of NHL hockey. Right now, the best thing for him and his body is another year of junior. I know knee surgeries aren't a big deal medically anymore, but physically they are..

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