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Old
11-23-2012, 10:16 AM
  #26
Grind
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Originally Posted by jw2 View Post
Detroit can attract any goaltender that values a cup more than they want an inflated contract.
I"d have agreed with you pretty much any year before this year, now, i'm not so sure.

Honestly I think the "detroit prospect factory" is heavily overhyped, especially when you consider how long its been since someone broke through.

They've had a few key players and a great system (coaching) to keep them together this long, but i think that era's ending.

yes i know that's what they said when stevie Y left, and I guess no one expected Z and Datsyuk to play the way they did, so what's to say the next crop can't, but i just don't see it happening.

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Old
11-23-2012, 01:25 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Arik Kristal View Post
Yes Detroit was able to survive losing Yzerman but they won't survive without Lidstrom. When Yzerman retired they had Datsyuk & Zetterberg to lean on offensively and the leadership of Lidstrom (future HHFer). Whose Detroit going to lean on defensively without Lidstrom? Kronwall is fantastic but he isn't the type of defender that Lidstrom was Quincey is good but to me a good 3-4. Smith is young and wouldn't say he's a 1-2 yet. That leaves Ericksson (4-5) white (dislike him but is a 4-5) and coliacovo (5-6). So that leaves your D in really bad shape. If they landed Suter this conversation would be irrelevant but they have big holes. And aging star vets upfront. Detroit has NO chance to contend if Zetterberg or Datsyuk suffer from injuries that make them miss a good chunk of games.

Lets not fool ourselves. Detroit is the most vulnerable now then in past 2 decades.
You basically said Detroit wont survive because their defense isn't immortal anymore.

Word to the wise, six teams not named Detroit have won the Cup since the lockout, and none of them had a defender as good as Nicklas Lidstrom. There isn't a D-man in the league as good as Lidstrom, and may never be one again. So pretending that Detroit is going to suddenly become a bottom-dweller is foolish.

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Old
11-23-2012, 03:03 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
I"d have agreed with you pretty much any year before this year, now, i'm not so sure.

Honestly I think the "detroit prospect factory" is heavily overhyped, especially when you consider how long its been since someone broke through.

They've had a few key players and a great system (coaching) to keep them together this long, but i think that era's ending.

yes i know that's what they said when stevie Y left, and I guess no one expected Z and Datsyuk to play the way they did, so what's to say the next crop can't, but i just don't see it happening.
Helm, Abby, Smith, Nyquist, Filppula, Kronwall, Franzen, Howard....

Yeah..... Where is everyone?

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Old
11-23-2012, 03:05 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by the banks View Post
What would you offer for Franzen?
What kind of futures would Detroit want?

Or if Howard walks and they still want to be competitive we could work something around Luongo and Franzen.

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Old
11-23-2012, 03:15 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
Honestly I think the "detroit prospect factory" is heavily overhyped, especially when you consider how long its been since someone broke through.

They've had a few key players and a great system (coaching) to keep them together this long, but i think that era's ending.

yes i know that's what they said when stevie Y left, and I guess no one expected Z and Datsyuk to play the way they did, so what's to say the next crop can't, but i just don't see it happening.
This is floated a lot as far as the prospects. It is hard to tell, because a bunch of guys won't hit, some will and some might turn out better or worse than everyone thinks. That is how looking at prospects goes. But I can say this is as deep and talented as the system has been since the early 90's. You know the group that was finally good enough to help Yzerman over the top. They won't all hit and for all intensive purposes Smith and Nyquist are graduates, but it is still a very impressive group.

They haven't pushed a lot of players through, but that had been the stated plan of the organization. Don't think it hasn't frustrated Wings fans, but a lot of that is by their own choice. Holland and Nill have talked about holding onto picks in the new cap system and stockpiling assets. Like you said who knows if it works out, eventually this run is going to end. But right now given the progress of the players and the fact Datsyuk (assuming he doesn't back to Russia in two years) and Zetterberg have a little more tread on the tire than I think anybody gives them credit for. I don't see the regression, Zetterberg had a horrible first month, but after that was one of the better players in the league. Both guys are very proud you think Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Kronwall want to be the guys in charge when the playoff streak ends? I don't know why everyone wants to be the first (well more like the millionth) to claim it is over. I wouldn't bet against them if I was another team.

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Old
11-23-2012, 03:18 PM
  #31
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It's a little hard to break through when you aren't allowed to break through, and it's probably a little disheartening to know that no matter how well you play and no matter how poorly a veteran plays, he'll have your spot until he retires.

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Old
11-23-2012, 03:23 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
What kind of futures would Detroit want?

Or if Howard walks and they still want to be competitive we could work something around Luongo and Franzen.
That really depends, some of Detroit's fans will sell Franzen for a bag of pucks, my feeling is as a 30 goal scorer with an impressive playoff track record is going to return a lot. One of the few players around here when trade threads are made for him, I usually find him undervalued even by his own fanbase.

Not interested in Luongo, I guess that situation is a rebuild, but I really think Luongo and the Detroit market is a match made in hell. I know Canadian fans won't want to hear this as they are so into the game, but being the goalie in Detroit is one of the worst jobs in all of sports.

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Old
11-23-2012, 09:20 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
That really depends, some of Detroit's fans will sell Franzen for a bag of pucks, my feeling is as a 30 goal scorer with an impressive playoff track record is going to return a lot. One of the few players around here when trade threads are made for him, I usually find him undervalued even by his own fanbase.

Not interested in Luongo, I guess that situation is a rebuild, but I really think Luongo and the Detroit market is a match made in hell. I know Canadian fans won't want to hear this as they are so into the game, but being the goalie in Detroit is one of the worst jobs in all of sports.

Wasn't there a fan interviewed on the ice during Howard's first or second year who basically said "It's nice to finally have a good goalie in Detroit again."

Granted, if I recall correctly, the guy was booed mercilessly.

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Old
11-23-2012, 10:26 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
What kind of futures would Detroit want?

Or if Howard walks and they still want to be competitive we could work something around Luongo and Franzen.
Detroit would never want to roll with Luongo. Ever

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Old
11-23-2012, 11:22 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by the banks View Post
Detroit would never want to roll with Luongo. Ever
you mean the same team that was prepared to offer him an enormous offer sheet before Florida traded him and he signed with Vancouver?

i'd watch it with the evers

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Old
11-24-2012, 12:28 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by ricky0034 View Post
you mean the same team that was prepared to offer him an enormous offer sheet before Florida traded him and he signed with Vancouver?

i'd watch it with the evers
I don't doubt that Holland wouldn't take a stab at him, but I doubt he'd take on his contract now.

And now that we have Howard I don't think he'd do it at all. I'm already trying to figure out what he's gonna do if Mrazek pans out.

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Old
11-24-2012, 01:12 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by HardingsJockstrap View Post
If that is the case, I would hope a top 2 D would be coming back, even if the D itself has the potential to be top-2 D. Either that or a high draft pick and prospects.
35 year old rental Datsyuk won't get you a top 2 defenseman. The latter is more realistic. Quality prospect, a (most likely) low 1st, and probably a conditional pick based on the playoffs.

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11-24-2012, 02:17 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
I don't doubt that Holland wouldn't take a stab at him, but I doubt he'd take on his contract now.

And now that we have Howard I don't think he'd do it at all. I'm already trying to figure out what he's gonna do if Mrazek pans out.
i'd agree but this thread is predicated on the scenario that Howard walks in free agency(which i'd call HIGHLY unlikely but yeah)

if such a thing actually happened I actually think the Wings would be much more willing to kick the tires on Luongo

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Old
11-24-2012, 03:49 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by ricky0034 View Post
you mean the same team that was prepared to offer him an enormous offer sheet before Florida traded him and he signed with Vancouver?

i'd watch it with the evers
That would be surprising since they are on record about never doing offer sheets. They weren't even firm on Weber about that when it was required to advance in the bidding process. Weber choose Philly not starting that debate, but there was a lot of debate as to whether Holland would really offer one. He hates that, Burke and him are probably the most vocal about it.

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Old
11-24-2012, 04:10 AM
  #40
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IMO Howard will resign in Detroit. The biggest need for the Wings has to be improving that d, its really the biggest hole in the roster right now.

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Old
11-24-2012, 04:12 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
That would be surprising since they are on record about never doing offer sheets. They weren't even firm on Weber about that when it was required to advance in the bidding process. Weber choose Philly not starting that debate, but there was a lot of debate as to whether Holland would really offer one. He hates that, Burke and him are probably the most vocal about it.

Quote:
Bid for backstop stopped
The Red Wings, according to one well-connected source, were on the verge of handing Roberto Luongo a Group 2 offer sheet worth $8.2 million a year prior to the Panthers flipping him to Vancouver on the eve of the draft. Luongo promptly signed a four-year, $27 million deal in Vancouver. Had the Wings been successful with the offer sheet, the compensation would have been four first-round draft picks.
http://www.boston.com/sports/hockey/...o_for_gophers/

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Old
11-24-2012, 05:15 AM
  #42
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I'll play along.. Detroit would go after another goalie not "blow things up".

The prospect pool is good, a new set of possible top6 forwards with Nyquist, Tatar, Jarnkrok and possibly Brunner are on their way in to lessen the fall of the decline of the "big3", while Fil hopefully stays the same as last year or even improve a bit further. Those prospect are not ready right now to carry the team's offense, but on the other hand Pavel, Z and Mule are far from done contrary to popular belief.

Howard or another goalie, the focus will be at defense. Wings' brass will give it a new shot in free agency next year I'm sure. Smith & Ouellet are very good prospects and very different ones. Sproul, Backman and Marchenko also look like legit NHL prospects at this point. There are plenty of ways to stay competitive but a combo of prospects developing and free agency will imo be the answer for Detroit going forward.

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Old
11-24-2012, 12:12 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by ricky0034 View Post
i'd agree but this thread is predicated on the scenario that Howard walks in free agency(which i'd call HIGHLY unlikely but yeah)

if such a thing actually happened I actually think the Wings would be much more willing to kick the tires on Luongo
With his current contract, I just don't see it happening.

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11-24-2012, 06:55 PM
  #44
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I'll play along.. Detroit would go after another goalie not "blow things up".

The prospect pool is good, a new set of possible top6 forwards with Nyquist, Tatar, Jarnkrok and possibly Brunner are on their way in to lessen the fall of the decline of the "big3", while Fil hopefully stays the same as last year or even improve a bit further. Those prospect are not ready right now to carry the team's offense, but on the other hand Pavel, Z and Mule are far from done contrary to popular belief.

Howard or another goalie, the focus will be at defense. Wings' brass will give it a new shot in free agency next year I'm sure. Smith & Ouellet are very good prospects and very different ones. Sproul, Backman and Marchenko also look like legit NHL prospects at this point. There are plenty of ways to stay competitive but a combo of prospects developing and free agency will imo be the answer for Detroit going forward.
It is important to remember that not many of these guys are gonna pan out, if two or three of all the names you listed meet or succeed expectations then it is a major success.

Hard telling who is going to though, but it is nice to finally have a prospect pool with some talent.

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11-24-2012, 09:13 PM
  #45
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Once again very unlikely Detroit would move guys, they are a very loyal organization. But should a rebuild be required. An interesting thing with both Zetterberg (player I deem least likely to be shopped) and Franzen is they don't have NTC, any team in the league can make an offer. Kronwall has one for the next several years and Datsyuk has a partial. Find it interesting Kronwall put one in, might tell you what some of the players are thinking. If Datsyuk doesn't commit to sign here next season and the team struggles, I expect he would be available as shocking as that would be to many. If they think he is going to Russia after 2014, they will want some assets, if he won't sign a deal by fall of next year things could get very interesting. Even as a known pure rental he will bring in a boatload, in that scenario Holland can't afford not to listen in my opinion.
If Datsyuk were available, I'd want the Oil to be all over it. He'd be a great mentor for Yakupov. Not sure what a fair price tag is for 1-1.5 seasons of Datsyuk. Gagner, Musil, 1st?

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Old
11-24-2012, 09:41 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by The Red Line View Post
Helm, Abby, Smith, Nyquist, Filppula, Kronwall, Franzen, Howard....

Yeah..... Where is everyone?
you need to look closer how things are worded. The guy made a point to say they haven't had someone break through lately.

Helm was drafted 7 years ago with a career high of 32 points. That is not exactly lately.

I am guessing 'Abby' is Abdelkader, who was also drafted 7 years ago with a career high of 22 points. Again not exactly lately.
  • Smith looks like an excellent prospect, but with 14 games he has not 'broken through'.
  • Nyquist looks like a good prospect, but 18 games he has not 'broken through'.
  • Filppula was drafted 10 years ago, definitely not a recent break through player.
  • Kronwall was drafted 12 years ago, also not a recent break through.
  • Franzen was drafted 8 years ago as a 25 year old. Not a recent break through.
  • Howard was drafted 9 years ago, again not a recent break through.

The fact you can't list a player drafted less than 7 years ago that actually has an NHL season under their belt does nothing but prove his point.

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Old
11-24-2012, 09:44 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Abbotsford Heat View Post
you need to look closer how things are worded. The guy made a point to say they haven't had someone break through lately.

Helm was drafted 7 years ago with a career high of 32 points. That is not exactly lately.

I am guessing 'Abby' is Abdelkader, who was also drafted 7 years ago with a career high of 22 points. Again not exactly lately.
  • Smith looks like an excellent prospect, but with 14 games he has not 'broken through'.
  • Nyquist looks like a good prospect, but 18 games he has not 'broken through'.
  • Filppula was drafted 10 years ago, definitely not a recent break through player.
  • Kronwall was drafted 12 years ago, also not a recent break through.
  • Franzen was drafted 8 years ago as a 25 year old. Not a recent break through.
  • Howard was drafted 9 years ago, again not a recent break through.

The fact you can't list a player drafted less than 7 years ago that actually has an NHL season under their belt does nothing but prove his point.
Pretty common knowledge that if you get drafted by Detroit you wont make the roster for at least three years, and probably closer to five.

So his point... Failed.

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Old
11-24-2012, 09:58 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Datsyuk Dangles View Post
Is that a joke? I'm pretty sure a team like Toronto would give huge money for a good goalie like Howard.

I'm 99% sure Howard stays, but if he leaves I would want us to go after Smith. If not Smith, than Backstrom and just wait and see how Mrazek develops
I wanted Smith when he was UFA from Tampa. I said it then that he had put up a few strong seasons and he was young and could still do it. WHY did we bring Conklin back again?

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Originally Posted by Abbotsford Heat View Post
you need to look closer how things are worded. The guy made a point to say they haven't had someone break through lately.

The fact you can't list a player drafted less than 7 years ago that actually has an NHL season under their belt does nothing but prove his point.
Cory Emmerton? Solid two-way depth center/winger with an outside shot of second-line potential. Good PKer and playmaker.

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Old
11-24-2012, 10:00 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
If Datsyuk were available, I'd want the Oil to be all over it. He'd be a great mentor for Yakupov. Not sure what a fair price tag is for 1-1.5 seasons of Datsyuk. Gagner, Musil, 1st?
If the Oilers are trading for Datsyuk, it's probably Hall or RNH. Given Detroit's plethora of wingers in the system over centers, I have to think RNH would be preferred.

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11-24-2012, 10:19 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
If the Oilers are trading for Datsyuk, it's probably Hall or RNH. Given Detroit's plethora of wingers in the system over centers, I have to think RNH would be preferred.
Hysterical if you think that RNH will be traded for an aging Datsyuk...maybe if he was in his prime

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