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Old
11-25-2012, 10:11 AM
  #51
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Part 1B.1 posted.

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11-25-2012, 10:14 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
^ Phaneuf was an absolute beast in that highlight, love it.
Can't wait for him to hit the ice again man.
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Right now he is playing with Datsyuk, albeit in another league. I agree with you
LR, he seems to fit that 2-way centre mod well. He isn't elite 2 way, like a Bergeron. He can put up similar numbers but he isn't at that level of faceoff/ defensive game to be called elite shutdown centre.
I like him where he is right now. He could work on his game to become that elite shutdown guy rather than a first line centre.
Agreed, he's already very good player but if he works on his other parts such as faceoffs and what not (even though he's improved from the previous year), he would be someone that's just unmovable unless a massive overpayment.

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Old
11-25-2012, 10:14 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
They're both fairly fast, soft, shoot first type players, with good stickhandling skills, who aren't good defensively. Main difference is Kessel is a much better playmaker (though worse defensively), and doesn't knowingly put himself into suicide positions.
They have similar skillsets, but they utilize them very differently on the ice.

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One is generally better at creating chances, while the other is generally better at preventing chances (and also being tougher to play against physically). While facing shutdown lines would certainly result in a decrease in QualComp, I don't see how anyone could say that it would also result in a boost in production.
That's a pretty massive generalization which isn't even true in many cases. I already explained how it could potentially result in a boost in production and you just keep repeating the same point about top six/bottom six. It's not some kind of axiom that good offensive players are always bad defensively, and all bottom six players are good defensively. Many of the league leaders in Rel. Corsi are both bottom and top-six players on good puck possession teams like the Canucks and Bruins.

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I'll take one of those games over scoring once in 4 out of 6 games, while averaging 1.5 shots per game.
So what you're saying is that you'd be happier if Grabo scored two goals in one of our games against the Bruins, rather than four goals in six..?

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11-25-2012, 10:19 AM
  #54
Duke Silver
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
The Kessel line is just fine offensively, and I seriously doubt Grabo of all players would be what's needed to "fix" the line defensively. If people want to change the Kessel line, to presumably produce better, shouldn't the burden of proof be on them? We all know how the Lupul-Bozak-Kessel line has done offensively since they've been together.
My contention was with you saying "They aren't any better than the numbers with Bozak" as if it were fact, yet providing no evidence to support that. The burden of proof should be on those who spout imaginary statistics as if they're fact.

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What's this magical possession stat you speak of? The Grabo line has produced at a 2nd line pace against better offensive (worse defensive) forwards they've been facing for the past two seasons. Assuming that their production would increase when they're matched up against worse offensive, but better defensive forwards is a stretch, to say the least.
Read.

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Here comes the predictable watching the games vs score sheet argument, from people who are using fundamentally flawed "advanced metrics" to prove a point. Please.
I was stopping you before you made the argument. In your opinion, is Grabo to fault for Kulemin's down season? Or did you not notice that Kulemin was the recipient of many stellar scoring chances that he couldn't bury? Simple questions.

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And where was he for the start of the season? Oh, nevermind, that's pretty typical of Grabo, too.
So you're just going to look at WHEN he got his point totals as opposed to how his offense stacks up against other 2nd liners over a full season? This is the ultimate cherry-pick. Almost every player goes through ups and downs through the course of a season.

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Had you actually read the posts, you'd realize that it's not just about the end of season collapse. But hey, if you want to use the January stretch to convince yourself that Grabo is an elite player, and he should be a no-brainer choice for #1C going forward, go right ahead.
Had you actually read my post, you would have noticed I never used the word elite to describe Grabo. I never even said he was a #1 calibre center. He may be OUR best choice, considering our depth chart up the middle. I don't think anyone's confusing Bozak as a #1C in this league, so why does putting Grabo up there all of a sudden deem him a #1C? It's just where he slots into our line-up. Grabo is a #2C compared to his peers and has produced like one for two years now.

People who put words in other peoples' mouths do so to twist the argument in their favour when there's nothing left to factually argue.

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Old
11-25-2012, 10:24 AM
  #55
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Also added 1B.2

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Old
11-25-2012, 10:25 AM
  #56
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Grabo is a warrior and hates the habs

he's worth every penny

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Old
11-25-2012, 10:29 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
It depends on which Grabovski you look at. The PPG+ Grabovski is absolutely a 1st line player, though as a non-playmaking center, he's not the most desirable #1C. The 0.4 PPG Grabovski would have trouble qualifying for a roster spot.

I realize that every player is streaky to an extent, but in the case of Grabo, the difference in performance is pretty pronounced, and the timing of his streaks is very predictable. Should the Leafs make the playoffs with Grabo as #2C, I can just see him completely disappear when the regular season ends.
0.4 PPG Grabovski? When, exactly?

Let's cut the last season into four quarters: 20 games, 21 games, 21 games, 20 games. This way of looking at it avoids you cherry picking cold streaks.

Q1: .56 ppg
Q2: .77 ppg
Q3: .81 ppg
Q4: .61 ppg

Peaks and valleys. You like to look at the valleys and small samples to make inferences. Rational people like to look at the larger samples.

So much hyperbole I could explode.

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11-25-2012, 10:30 AM
  #58
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Grabovski is the offensive spark that often stirs the Leafs drink and as he goes so does the Leafs offense when he is on his game. He draws attention from opponents in defensive coverage opening up opportunities for teammates when that occurs.

He is however a capable 2nd line center in ability 20-25 goals 50-60 points type player. Leafs energizer bunny that takes a licking and keeps on ticking shows the big heart in a smaller package.

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11-25-2012, 11:19 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Grabovski is the offensive spark that often stirs the Leafs drink and as he goes so does the Leafs offense when he is on his game. He draws attention from opponents in defensive coverage opening up opportunities for teammates when that occurs.

He is however a capable 2nd line center in ability 20-25 goals 50-60 points type player. Leafs energizer bunny that takes a licking and keeps on ticking shows the big heart in a smaller package.
He is a good and likeable player IMO..but I see both sides of the argument..on Grabovski...something about him leaves you wanting more...I also can see him being ineffective in the post season. I also think he makes too much money. I wouldn't be terribly disappointed if he was moved but at the same time I don't dislike him.

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Old
11-25-2012, 12:25 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
It depends on which Grabovski you look at. The PPG+ Grabovski is absolutely a 1st line player, though as a non-playmaking center, he's not the most desirable #1C. The 0.4 PPG Grabovski would have trouble qualifying for a roster spot.

I realize that every player is streaky to an extent, but in the case of Grabo, the difference in performance is pretty pronounced, and the timing of his streaks is very predictable. Should the Leafs make the playoffs with Grabo as #2C, I can just see him completely disappear when the regular season ends.
So, Stamkos isn't a desirable #1 centre?



Obviously an extreme example cuz Grabo gets as many points a year that Stammer gets goals (close anyway), but still. It shouldn't be about playing style. It should be production and chemistry.

It's a well known fact we have only one first line player on our team, and that is Kessel. Lupul PRODUCED like a first liner because of his CHEMISTRY with Kessel. Bozak is a third liner, but produces like a top 6 forward because of his chemistry with Kessel.

Just like we only have one top pairing defenseman, Phaneuf. But Gunnarsson produces(not points wise but plays like) a top pairing guy because of his chemistry with Dion.


Line combos come down to production and chemistry. If we stuck Grabo in between Kessel and Lupul(something I'm against because I believe in spreading out your scoring), it would be up to the three of them to make it work.

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11-25-2012, 12:34 PM
  #61
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Grabo is an average to slightly above average 2nd liner. Enough said.

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11-25-2012, 02:04 PM
  #62
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I hope he gels with JVR. That could be a big part of a great shutdown line under Carlyle.

Lupul - ________ - Kessel
JVR - Grabovski - Kadri

Not too shabby imo

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11-25-2012, 02:05 PM
  #63
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I hope he gels with JVR. That could be a big part of a great shutdown line under Carlyle.

Lupul - ________ - Kessel
JVR - Grabovski - Kadri

Not too shabby imo
No shutdown line will have Kadri on it.....

And if rather have Kule on a shutdown line than JVR, much better defensively and JVR should be in a more offensive role.

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11-25-2012, 02:12 PM
  #64
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Since when was Grabovski not a playmaker? He never shoots when there's a pass option. He's shown that he can be the set-up man from anywhere on the ice, off the rush or from the cycle. If Kulemin had played well, who doubts that Grabovski would have surpassed his assists total from the 10-11 season? Why do people have the image of pre-2010 Grabovski burned into their heads? He's not a puck hog, the puck is usually on and off his stick. That's why he improved dramatically over his first 3 seasons.

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11-25-2012, 02:15 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by sgupca View Post
Grabo is a warrior and hates the habs

he's worth every penny
He brings his A game against Montreal and Boston, whether the rest of the team is falling apart or not. No games are more important that the ones against division rivals...no games are more important psychologically than the ones against those two teams specifically

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11-25-2012, 02:38 PM
  #66
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Depends what Grabovski you get. When he's hot he's one of the better 2nd line C's in the league, but when you average it out..

I'd still say he's an above average 2nd line centre, theres some teams that have a better 2nd line centre then us but we'll just have to deal with it.

I think McClement or Steckel are respectable 4th line centres. It's all about getting a true top centre and a great 3rd line centre at this point. Realistically looking at the team you have this as a skeleton to what could be a cup contender...

Lupul (provided he plays as he did last year - ? - Kessel
JVR - Grabo - ?
?-?-Kulemin
?-McClement-?

I would argue after those players, the other ones we do have arent strong enough in their position if we wanted to win a cup.

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11-25-2012, 02:38 PM
  #67
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Leafs have a lot of players that when the going gets tough they disappear but Grabovski is not one of them.

Big physical teams have more success and Grabs plays bigger than his size and is not easily intimidated by contact. While Grabs in not a complete player, he is a gamer.

Grabs was Leafs best center before Burke arrived and is still that best center the team has today, and gotten better over time. He however is not a top 3 / top line player but fills a secondary scoring role nicely for the Leafs. Despite his contributions being in context of a bottom team, he would likely produce similarly if he were on a better team as he would see similar TOI/g.

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11-25-2012, 02:49 PM
  #68
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Leafs have a lot of players that when the going gets tough they disappear but Grabovski is not one of them.

Big physical teams have more success and Grabs plays bigger than his size and is not easily intimidated by contact. While Grabs in not a complete player, he is a gamer.

Grabs was Leafs best center before Burke arrived and is still that best center the team has today, and gotten better over time. He however is not a top 3 / top line player but fills a secondary scoring role nicely for the Leafs. Despite his contributions being in context of a bottom team, he would likely produce similarly if he were on a better team as he would see similar TOI/g.
And the production he shows on the Leafs has never relied on PP time or benefited from better linemates.

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11-25-2012, 03:18 PM
  #69
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he can be a #1 center for sure

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11-25-2012, 03:49 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by sgupca View Post
Grabo is a warrior and hates the habs

he's worth every penny


Best argument made in this thread yet.

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11-25-2012, 03:57 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
Since when was Grabovski not a playmaker? He never shoots when there's a pass option. He's shown that he can be the set-up man from anywhere on the ice, off the rush or from the cycle. If Kulemin had played well, who doubts that Grabovski would have surpassed his assists total from the 10-11 season? Why do people have the image of pre-2010 Grabovski burned into their heads? He's not a puck hog, the puck is usually on and off his stick. That's why he improved dramatically over his first 3 seasons.
If Kulemin had been playing like his '10-'11 self, Grabo would have easily had another 15 assists.

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11-25-2012, 03:57 PM
  #72
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I don't think Grabovski cares about some sort of "status" that comes with the 1st line. If MGK line can light it up again, they're just 1st line 2.0

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11-25-2012, 04:00 PM
  #73
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He's a good #2C. Not a genuine #1C on almost any team except the Leafs.

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11-25-2012, 04:23 PM
  #74
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3 pages discussing if Grabo is a #1C on a contender or a #2C on a Cup team.

Unbelievable.

When the answer is a resounding, No. He has never won at any level in the NHL. Just how do some come to a conclusion it is yes when you look at the standard of #2C's that have won the cup is a mystery.

The fact he is a #2C on a perennial non playoff team and a mediocre one at that, just tells you all you need to know.

1. First off let this guy prove he can be part of a winning team before saying he is a 'great' <chuckle> #2C on Cup contender, I won't even say Cup winner because we know this is not true.

2. If the guy is so great, why do all his backers always say he needs better wingers, or a better supporting cast? Great players make players around them better, but Grabo is not a particular strong playmaker nor does he bring a lot of "Bergeron, Richards intangibles to a team".

He is what he is, a default best C on a team with little strength up the middle, only 4 points the better of the 2nd highest point getting C on the team last year with a lot more fanfare and less intangibles ie. Faceoff inabilty just to name one thing. He rarely plays consistently, often dissapears when the games are important.

In short, he is the poster boy of this losing era. I will say it again, and it's sounding like a broken record, when the Leafs get a better top 6, one where players have better intangibles. The almost 29 year old will be gone, and mark these words, the Leafs will improve in the standings.

This I have no doubt you can count on, and some of the Grabo fans will say it is a coincidence no doubt. If this is what they want to cling to, be my guest.

The fact is The Leafs will improve in the standings when the Grabo era is over.

DasveedAnja.

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Old
11-25-2012, 04:28 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by pelletier666 View Post
He's a good #2C. Not a genuine #1C on almost any team except the Leafs.
He's not even that on a team that wants to take the next step to being a contender.

He's a good #2C on teams like Columbus and the Leafs. That's about it, heck I would even take Plekanec over Grabs.

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