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Trottier vs. Crosby

View Poll Results: Who was the better player?
Trottier 56 53.85%
Crosby 48 46.15%
Voters: 104. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-24-2012, 01:24 PM
  #101
TheDevilMadeMe
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Yeah, penalizing Crosby for missing time during the lockout is crazy. The fact that the NHL and NHLPA are run by buffoons doesn't make him a worse hockey player.

It's not at all the same as being injured, especially since his abrasive style of play likely contributed to his injuries.

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11-24-2012, 02:27 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yeah, penalizing Crosby for missing time during the lockout is crazy. The fact that the NHL and NHLPA are run by buffoons doesn't make him a worse hockey player.

It's not at all the same as being injured, especially since his abrasive style of play likely contributed to his injuries.
Other than a freak concussion, Crosby only missed a significant amount of games once.

I doubt that anyone is going to have Crosby ahead of Trottier on an all time list if they've put thought into it, but asking who is better is different. Injuries can impact how valuable you are, but it doesn't really change how good you are unless the injuries are clearly the fault of the player.

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11-24-2012, 02:40 PM
  #103
Rob Scuderi
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Alright didn't "injure" himself but he was a little careless and had he kept his head up the Steckel hit doesn't happen. Same thing in 2008 sliding into the end boards. Crosby had and still has a bad habit of doing that. I don't know if he was trying to draw a penalty, I'm not in his head, but it was another case of him costing himself an Art Ross.
It takes a certain kind of conspiracy theory to believe Crosby would really try to draw a penalty with incidental contact behind the play or by spraining his ankle as it takes all of his body's weight slamming into the end boards.

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11-24-2012, 03:06 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
It takes a certain kind of conspiracy theory to believe Crosby would really try to draw a penalty with incidental contact behind the play or by spraining his ankle as it takes all of his body's weight slamming into the end boards.
All I will say is that he was careless on that play and he does that fall down too often. Not saying he is necessarily diving (many have though) but it cost him an Art Ross.

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Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
Other than a freak concussion, Crosby only missed a significant amount of games once.

I doubt that anyone is going to have Crosby ahead of Trottier on an all time list if they've put thought into it, but asking who is better is different. Injuries can impact how valuable you are, but it doesn't really change how good you are unless the injuries are clearly the fault of the player.
He played 53 games in 2008. 41 games in 2011. 22 games in 2012. I hate saying this because I am a big Crosby booster but he's missed a lot of time, bordering on Lindrosesque

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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
So now he's being penalized for lockouts too?

The OP asked who is the best player. Not who has the nicest trophy case, who had the most productive career, who stays the healthiest. Simply, put these two players on the ice (against their peers, we assume) and which is the better player of the game of hockey?

We wouldn't say Larry Murphy was a better player than Bobby Orr, right? Mario Lemieux was clearly a better player than Dave Andreychuk, right? The same logic applies here. Crosby might miss a lot of games, but that doesn't have any bearing on how good a player he is.
No, not penalized but if we can agree we may not have seen Crosby's best then he is doing nothing to show us otherwise. Look at the poll results, it isn't insane to say Trottier was better at his best than Crosby was. I mean, once Gretzky came into the NHL you can argue that he was the only one still better than Trottier for a while.

What we have seen from Crosby makes it very controversial to say he was better than Trottier. You can't penalize him for being in a clueless league (although if there is any voice that can help solve this thing its him) but if there is no hockey there is no chance for him to show what he can do in the best league in the world. Albeit, you aren't penalizing him as much as NOT rewarding him for missed time.

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11-24-2012, 03:29 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Alright didn't "injure" himself but he was a little careless and had he kept his head up the Steckel hit doesn't happen. Same thing in 2008 sliding into the end boards. Crosby had and still has a bad habit of doing that. I don't know if he was trying to draw a penalty, I'm not in his head, but it was another case of him costing himself an Art Ross.
Haven't we reached a point where we're past penalizing a player for concussions? I mean, this is the Age of Concussions now. Everyone is getting them now, a result of the game being too fast and every check looking more and more like a car crash.

I think, 'should have kept his head up' is a little out-dated with the league the way it is now. I personally find it tough to critique a Crosby or a Toews or a Bergeron for concussions like I once did with a Lindros, all things considered.

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11-24-2012, 04:24 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by lazerbullet View Post
Total time of '10 has very little to do with it. Sid is clearly head and shoulders above everyone else because of 41 games of '11. And that's just 41 games, not a very long time.

So no, Crosby was not the best for the 1.5 seasons. He was the best player for the 0.5 season. That's it.
well being clearly in the mix for 10 and above the pack for half of the season in 10 makes him the best over that 1 and 1/2 year stretch unless one wants to get silly even the best players are not always players of the week, it's their consistency over long periods of time that make them the best.

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11-24-2012, 05:27 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
On the other hand, the OP asks who is the "better player", which has little to do with who got a concussion and who didn't.
Agreed, but what is better player? Better at per game basis? I agree then, Crosby is right up there, but he is hardly the only one who has great half seasons. It's as arbitrary as any cut off point but usually people look at the entire season.
It's really sad for me as a hockey fan that he is so injury riddled, don't get me wrong.

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11-25-2012, 03:57 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
Haven't we reached a point where we're past penalizing a player for concussions? I mean, this is the Age of Concussions now. Everyone is getting them now, a result of the game being too fast and every check looking more and more like a car crash.

I think, 'should have kept his head up' is a little out-dated with the league the way it is now. I personally find it tough to critique a Crosby or a Toews or a Bergeron for concussions like I once did with a Lindros, all things considered.
Except if he has his head up he doesn't get nailed by Steckel, that's all.

Again, I will reiterate he is not being penalized for having injuries but rather just not rewarded for lost time. When you start nickel and diming with part seasons and PPG then you aren't looking at what he DID but what he MAY have done. Even if he probably does. A better player also equals a healthier one who is contributing to his team and not in the press box.

My take is that we have yet to see a season from Crosby that can say beyond the shadow of a doubt that he was superior to Trottier's best season. We're talking about a season (1979) where Trottier has 134 points, outpoints Dionne, Lafleur and Bossy wins the Hart and Art Ross and was +76. Crosby's best season so far is either 2007 or 2010. In 2007 he gets 120 points and outpoints Thornton and Lecavalier so you can't really say his top end talent was any harder. In 2010 he led the NHL in goals, was 2nd in points with 109 and lost to Henrik Sedin in the scoring race. He is 3rd in Hart voting. I don't know about you, but where are we talking about where Crosby is clearly better? I personally would have a hard time finding a season where he matches Trottier in 1979 and Sid is losing a prime year of his career right now that could prove us wrong.

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11-25-2012, 04:11 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
well being clearly in the mix for 10 and above the pack for half of the season in 10 makes him the best over that 1 and 1/2 year stretch unless one wants to get silly even the best players are not always players of the week, it's their consistency over long periods of time that make them the best.
Evaluating season-by-season is not getting silly and in fact quite common and reasonable approach. Summer 2010 Crosby was not a consensus best player. Period.

And I really don't see a reason why one should take an average of just two seasons (1.5 to be precise). That's just cherry-picking to prove a point. If you want to talk about consistency then why not 3 or 4 seasons?

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11-25-2012, 04:28 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
I personally find it tough to critique a Crosby or a Toews or a Bergeron for concussions like I once did with a Lindros, all things considered.
But it's still being done.
Personally, I think Lindros, before he ran into his concussion issues, was the better and more dominant player than Crosby has been so far.

In fact...
After 7 seasons:
Lindros 431GP 263G 600P
Crosby 434GP 223G 609P

Even if you try to use Adjusted stats, the difference is maybe 30 points total and once you factor in Lindros' superior defensive play and supreme physical dominance/intimidation, I think Lindros is pretty clearly the better overall player.

Trots is a lot closer to matching Lindros physically than Crosby, and Trots is already the better defensive player than either of them.

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11-25-2012, 10:25 AM
  #111
DisgruntledGoat
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Except if he has his head up he doesn't get nailed by Steckel, that's all.
Keep his head up three zones away from the play? Why does he need to be worrying about a shoulder to the head in that situation? (sidenote, but I have always wondered if a foggy visor in a rainy, outdoor arena contributed to that as well. . . just another reason why I hate the winter classic).

All players get hit like that. There was no hall-of-famer who DIDN'T get laid out at least once or twice. The difference is, in today's game, for a whole host of factors, players just can't get up from those hits like they used to. Back in the day, if a Bealiveau took a similar hit, he would get up and keep skating and no one would think anything of it. Today, a hard hockey hit seems to be as punishing as a bad car crash.

I just think that, under those conditions, the old cliche of, 'player X is concussed = player x skates with his head down' needs to go. Its just not realistic to expect to player to go his whole career withOUT some brain damage, sadly. We've entered football territory.

Having said that. . . I do agree that we don't need to penalize Crosby to make a case for Trottier. Trottier does that on his own merits.

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11-25-2012, 10:29 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
But it's still being done.
Personally, I think Lindros, before he ran into his concussion issues, was the better and more dominant player than Crosby has been so far.

In fact...
After 7 seasons:
Lindros 431GP 263G 600P
Crosby 434GP 223G 609P

Even if you try to use Adjusted stats, the difference is maybe 30 points total and once you factor in Lindros' superior defensive play and supreme physical dominance/intimidation, I think Lindros is pretty clearly the better overall player.

Trots is a lot closer to matching Lindros physically than Crosby, and Trots is already the better defensive player than either of them.
Now that's an interesting debate. I consider a healthy, on-his-game Lindros one of the most dominant player ever (right there with Orr and Gretzky). Unfortunately, we didn't get to see that player as much as we should have, and it wasn't just the injuries. And, as was mentioned, Crosby's superior playoff record is another element to be considered.

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11-25-2012, 10:50 AM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
But it's still being done.
Personally, I think Lindros, before he ran into his concussion issues, was the better and more dominant player than Crosby has been so far.

In fact...
After 7 seasons:
Lindros 431GP 263G 600P
Crosby 434GP 223G 609P

Even if you try to use Adjusted stats, the difference is maybe 30 points total and once you factor in Lindros' superior defensive play and supreme physical dominance/intimidation, I think Lindros is pretty clearly the better overall player.

Trots is a lot closer to matching Lindros physically than Crosby, and Trots is already the better defensive player than either of them.
Adjusted
Lindros '94-'00: 423 GP , 256 G (.60 GPG), 601 P (1.42 PPG)
Crosby '06-'12: 434 GP, 237 G (.55 GPG), 632 P (1.46 PPG)

That's starting with Lindros' second season, but also only giving him credit for actual games in '95, and it's about as close as you can get.

As Phil says, we aren't penalizing Crosby for games missed due to injury, but we can't give him too much extra credit for those missed games either. I mean, saying he was at a dominant level in '10 & '11 isn't much of a stretch... but including '12 (only 22 games after already missing half of '11) and the current lockout is going too far. If he wants ANY credit for this season, then he should be playing in one of the top leagues available... whether that's the NHL, KHL, or even the Swiss league... at least prove he can stay healthy for N games and dominate a bunch of yodelers.

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11-25-2012, 11:16 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
Keep his head up three zones away from the play? Why does he need to be worrying about a shoulder to the head in that situation? (sidenote, but I have always wondered if a foggy visor in a rainy, outdoor arena contributed to that as well. . . just another reason why I hate the winter classic).
I don't like the Winter Classic either and barely reacted when they cancelled it this year. Yes it may have been a factor.

Quote:
All players get hit like that. There was no hall-of-famer who DIDN'T get laid out at least once or twice. The difference is, in today's game, for a whole host of factors, players just can't get up from those hits like they used to. Back in the day, if a Bealiveau took a similar hit, he would get up and keep skating and no one would think anything of it. Today, a hard hockey hit seems to be as punishing as a bad car crash.

I just think that, under those conditions, the old cliche of, 'player X is concussed = player x skates with his head down' needs to go. Its just not realistic to expect to player to go his whole career withOUT some brain damage, sadly. We've entered football territory.

Having said that. . . I do agree that we don't need to penalize Crosby to make a case for Trottier. Trottier does that on his own merits.
I guess it cuts both ways. Beliveau and all of his peers never wore helmets either. Goalies didn't have masks. Yes, players get hit harder now and it sucks in many ways, you see I was one of those guys who wanted to see Crosby dominate the NHL. In 2007 in his second season it looked like it was going to happen but he just never became the consensus #1. In 2009 Malkin wins the Art Ross, Crosby has a great playoff but Malkin deservingly wins the Smythe. In 2010 Crosby gets outpointed by Sedin. In 2011 he is hurt and we never know what could be of him. See, I don't like it, but judging a players potential to a player we saw play out his whole career always favours the latter. I wish Crosby made this discussion easier for us.

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11-25-2012, 11:47 AM
  #115
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I think if the lockout isn't settled by Xmas, then Crosby has to pack his skates off to Switzerland or somewhere, or he gets no credit for this season either. He's healthy and rested (right?)... he loves the game (right?)... he's got plenty of dough (right?)... so why not go play at least a half season somewhere, even if it's basically for free (just the cost of his insurance)? If he does, I at least give him some credit for the season. If he doesn't, then he's basically resting and healing for next season, which is an advantage those now playing overseas don't have. The other way of crediting a player for a lockout season is to average his seasons on either side of that missed season. Well, those 22 games won't average too well, so he better make the most of his R&R and stay healthy next season (whenever that is).

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11-25-2012, 11:56 AM
  #116
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I'm just not sure why we're talking about "credit for this season" or "credit for that season" when the OP isn't asking about career performance.

Maybe I read the word "better" differently than most here, but I don't see why injuries or lockouts have any bearing whatsoever on who is the best player. That's the kind of logic where you end up having really bizarre top-10 lists that don't include Orr or Lemieux.

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11-25-2012, 11:59 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I'm just not sure why we're talking about "credit for this season" or "credit for that season" when the OP isn't asking about career performance.

Maybe I read the word "better" differently than most here, but I don't see why injuries or lockouts have any bearing whatsoever on who is the best player. That's the kind of logic where you end up having really bizarre top-10 lists that don't include Orr or Lemieux.
Because whether a player is injury prone or not is a big part of his makeup as a player maybe?

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11-25-2012, 12:01 PM
  #118
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Through first 7 seasons

Crosby 90 points in 68 playoff games.
Lindros 56 points in 48 playoff games games.

Did not factor that ey?
it wasn't Lindros's fault Philly didnt make the playoffs the first few years.

just like it wasnt Crosby's fault the Pens won the Stanley Cup.

outside of soccer, hockey is the biggest team game there is. you cant place blame or give credit to a player based on what the team as a whole does. this is why i throw up everytime someone brings up "well player X has a cup, and player Y doesnt"

this isnt tennis

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11-25-2012, 12:06 PM
  #119
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Trottier has two top three scoring finishes( 1st 2nd) Crosby had three in his first five seasons( 1st 2nd 3rd) and has three other seasons where he finished 1st 1st and 2nd in ppg. So in total Crosby has been on pace for a top 3 scoring finish in 6 of his 7 seasons.
because the OP asked who is "better player" not, who is the better "scorer"

there is way more to hockey then putting up points.when Trots was playing, there were several areas where he excelled in besides scoring. i really cant think of one area (skating, stick handling, goal scoring, passing, faceoffs, defensive/phyiscal play, leadership) where Crosby is far and away the best at.

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11-25-2012, 12:10 PM
  #120
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Crosby's pace is much higher. It does not matter if Lindros did not play as many games.
so if i dress for one playoff game, and get 3 points, that means I am the better player? LMAO

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11-25-2012, 12:12 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Gabbychuk View Post
Crosby is Very good at everything thats why. 84 assists ok. 51 goals and a 64 goal pace ok. I want to see a player get 70 assists. and the next season lead the NHL in goals.
I am not discounting that he is in the discussion, but there is not one area of the game that everyone thinks he is the best in.

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11-25-2012, 12:17 PM
  #122
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I want to see a player get 70 assists. and the next season lead the NHL in goals.
How about finish top 5 in goals and assists in the same season?

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11-25-2012, 12:20 PM
  #123
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I would say from 06-07 to 08-09 he was at worst the 2nd best passer and 10-11 before the concussion the best goal scorer since he was the reigning Richard winner and was leading the NHL in goals at the time of his injury.


yeah, he tied Stamkos (a 2nd year player) and scored one more than Ovechkin (who played 9 fewer games. i have never heard anyone say Crosby was the best goal scorer in the league.

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11-25-2012, 12:23 PM
  #124
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Was first in points and goals in 2010-11.
We must be looking at different leaderboards.

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11-25-2012, 12:31 PM
  #125
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lol good argument buddy I hope the lockout ends soon to see Crosby demo the scoring race.
Facts not permitted?

He shouldn't have any excuses, with less than 70 NHL games in 2 (going on 3) seasons (and less than 30 in 2 years), and being in the middle of his peak/prime years.

If he needs a challenge, he might try finishing top 5 in both goals and assists in 3 consecutive seasons... and doing so in only 63 games one of those seasons (otherwise would have been top 2 in G & A in consecutive seasons).

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