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The Armchair GM Thread - Part XXX - Naughty Edition

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Old
10-24-2012, 10:40 PM
  #426
Vankiller Whale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shortshorts View Post
I would value it closer to: Bjugstad, 3rd vs Petrovic, 1st.

I would still take Bjugstad and a 3rd.. But if the value were any lower, I would take Petrovic and the 1st.

That's my take. I agree with your idea, disagree with your valuation.

Edit: I also disagree with your talent evaluation. I believe Bjugstad(Very good prospect) is a tier under Kassian(Bluechip prospect) and a tier above Gaunce.
I have no doubt that Bjugstad is currently the better prospect than Gaunce, but they play similar styles, and as both would likely play a 3rd line C role, it makes more sense to me to target a player we have no one close to in our prospect pool, or even really on our roster.

I'd take Petrovic+1st over Bjugstad+2nd, although that does have a lot to do with the strength of the coming up draft.

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11-13-2012, 01:28 PM
  #427
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Bringing back the GM thread.....Addressing the D

On paper it looks like vancouver has sorted out the top 6 D. Looking closer there is cause for concern that the team really needs to address the right side of defence, both on the big team, and in the minors/propsect base. We have four top 4 that are more comfortable on the left (according to the Canucks D coach), and one on the right. Tanev is a third pairing D-man. One of Edler or Garrison will move to the right side and both have played there. Garrison being the newbie is most likely, though I don't mind the idea of Edler moving over.

LD
Edler
Hamhuis
Ballard
Garrison
Alberts

RD
Bieksa
Tanev

Hamhuis - Bieksa
Garrison - Edler (or switch them)
Ballard - Tanev
Alberts (LHS)
K-Con (LHS)
Sauve (LHS)

It's pretty clear that a top priority for the Canucks is getting a right side D that can play some minutes on the third pairing when injuries strike. It may not be as critical as getting a 2RW or 3C, but it will be a problem if they don't resolve it. It would be a better situation to play everyone where they are strongest and only have them shift (Garrison or Edler) when injuries strike. Edler's contract situation will also dominate decisions about how to structure the D for this season and the next couple. An Edler signing makes Ballard available. Edler not signing, means the Canucks have to seriously think about moving him as they cannot afford to let him walk next summer. That would signal the last real shot they have at a cup for a while if they do.

Where does that player come from?

Currently, Carolina and St Louis have the greatest strength in the NHL on the right side of D in organizational depth or quality, while Pittsburgh are also blessed with great prospect depth. Phoenix also has some good depth in prospects, with Runblad in particular an enticing asset, though one with some serious deficiencies. Nashville used to have a ton of right side D, but only Blum and Roussel would be considered available and both have regressed quite far. Florida with Petrovic offer another intriguing asset that can play a two way game and offer a physicality that is missing in Vancouver. He is underrated but really needs a good year or two of development in the AHL.

The players I am interested in:

Carolina:
McBain
Murphy
Sanguinetti
Biega
Alt

Florida
Petrovic

Phoenix:
Rundblad

Washington:
Green

Nashville:
Blum


Carolina needs a quality backup goalie (Theodore, Neuvirth, Holtby, Reimer) and could possibly use a left winger if the Staals both play at center. They might be a fit for Raymond. They also have Dalpe and Boychuk which could be cheap lottery tickets to fill the open C/RW spot. If the Canucks get a goalie in part return for Luongo, this would be a good place to ship him.

I really like Murphy. he could be available in the right deal given the fact Carolina has a ton of offensive d-men on the big team and in the minors. They are the best fit for the Canucks to find a player they could use. Any of the above players could be available depending on the deal.

A Sanguinetti and Boychuk (or Dalpe) deal would not cost much. Sanguinetti is off to a decent start along with the rest of the Charlotte D. Both Boychuk and Sanguinetti were placed on waivers on September 15th before the start of the lockout. I assume this was done so they could play in the AHL. I am surprised that nobody took a shot at them, though maybe there was no time. Any other team placing them in the AHL would have to waive them as well.

Beiga and Alt are both still in college, but Biega in particular fits the Canuck playing style and would help down the road. Alt will likely be retained as his size is unique in Carolina's system.

McBain could be moved if Murphy is brought into training camp and impresses.

In Florida, any Luongo deal must include Petrovic. He's a depth asset and one the Canucks really could use. Petrovic, a 1st and Theodore? Petrovic, Howden and Theodore? I'd be fine with that kind of return for Lou.

Blum could maybe be had for Raymond if Colin Wilson moves back to center. Raymond is a Nashville type of player. I think Nashville has to add to that deal.

Mike Green would be a very interesting return for Lou if it included a goalie coming back as well. I think Washington would like to see how their two youngsters pan out, but if they struggle they would be a good fit for either Lou or Schneider. Green has some defensive issues (a la Jovo) but is the kind of PP QB that can replace the hole left by Ehrhoff whil freeing up Ballard or even Edler (if not willing to sign) for a trade. The salaries match as well. Washington's goalie included ina deal could be flipped to Toronto, Carolina or New Jersey or kept as a backup. This is my darkhorse team for Lou....ahead of either Chicago, or San Jose.

Rundblad for a return not exceeding Raymond would be fine with me. He still has a lot of work needed on skating and defensive awareness, but his offensive talent is off the charts. Can't see Tippet giving him a lot of room......Vinnie would have the same issue with him though.


Last edited by ginner classic: 11-13-2012 at 01:34 PM.
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Old
11-13-2012, 01:53 PM
  #428
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I'd add Dumba off Minnesota, but that would be a tough get.

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11-13-2012, 01:56 PM
  #429
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Corrado will be at the training camp, if there is a season...I'd include him too.

He's a righty as well.

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11-13-2012, 02:24 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Corrado will be at the training camp, if there is a season...I'd include him too.

He's a righty as well.
I'd be pretty surprised if he was ready for the NHL this year, but I mentioned guys like Biega, Alt, Roussel so yeah, he should be on the chart as well.

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11-13-2012, 06:05 PM
  #431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Actually the Canucks need a prospect like Bjugstad a lot more than a prospect like Petrovic. Again, you're ignoring that we have most of our top 4 (soon to be all of it) locked up long-term. That means there's only 2 spots open, and they're bottom pairing spots. Chris Tanev takes up one of those spots, and Kevin Connauton likely will take up the other. Where's the room or need? Meanwhile our forward prospects seriously lack high end ability, something that Bjugstad has.


And if Bjugstad isn't available?



Petrovic would make a decent consolation if Bjugstad was pulled off the table, so to speak. He's got bite to his game, something Bjugstad lacks, and is apt to using his frame far more than Bjugstad ever does.



Upside wise, Bjugstad is the better prospect. But you could downgrade from Bjugstad to Shore and add Petrovic, and still come out with a good haul. The FLA prospect pool is just that good.

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11-16-2012, 04:18 PM
  #432
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How would people feel about Raymond for Tallinder? At least one Devils fan likes on the main boards and I think it's decent deal that rounds out our defensive corps given we pawn off Ballard (sorry Ballard, just a square peg, round hole with a 4.2 million hit) or waive him:

Hamhuis-Bieksa
Edler-Tallinder
Garrison-Tanev
Alberts

I'm not sure if Tallinder plays right side but I'm 60% sure he does, if not then I wouldn't do this deal. Of course, Tallinder and Tanev are interchangeable.

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11-16-2012, 05:41 PM
  #433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
How would people feel about Raymond for Tallinder? At least one Devils fan likes on the main boards and I think it's decent deal that rounds out our defensive corps given we pawn off Ballard (sorry Ballard, just a square peg, round hole with a 4.2 million hit) or waive him:

Hamhuis-Bieksa
Edler-Tallinder
Garrison-Tanev
Alberts

I'm not sure if Tallinder plays right side but I'm 60% sure he does, if not then I wouldn't do this deal. Of course, Tallinder and Tanev are interchangeable.
Tallinder can be a very steady minute muncher on the 2nd pairing. Really liked him when he was on Buffalo. I would do that deal if it meant we could move Ballard for a bottom 6 upgrade.

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11-16-2012, 09:24 PM
  #434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
How would people feel about Raymond for Tallinder? At least one Devils fan likes on the main boards and I think it's decent deal that rounds out our defensive corps given we pawn off Ballard (sorry Ballard, just a square peg, round hole with a 4.2 million hit) or waive him:

Hamhuis-Bieksa
Edler-Tallinder
Garrison-Tanev
Alberts

I'm not sure if Tallinder plays right side but I'm 60% sure he does, if not then I wouldn't do this deal. Of course, Tallinder and Tanev are interchangeable.
I wouldn't want Tallinder as a permanent fixture in our top-4.

Maybe if
Hamhuis-Bieksa
Edler-Garrison
Tallinder-Tanev

would work, but otherwise I'd want to go after a higher quality RD if Garrison absolutely cannot work with Edler.

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11-16-2012, 09:30 PM
  #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I wouldn't want Tallinder as a permanent fixture in our top-4.

Maybe if
Hamhuis-Bieksa
Edler-Garrison
Tallinder-Tanev

would work, but otherwise I'd want a higher quality RD if Garrison absolutely cannot work with Edler.
The thing is Tallinder comes at a relatively cheap price (just Raymond) and the guy like timw33 said, a minute muncher. If we acquired Tallinder for that, I would not really ever be afraid of putting any pairing on any given night and not having them stink. If someone went down, I wouldn't really even have a problem with Alberts-Tallinder playing 15-20 minutes a night.

Compared to our 2010 D of:

Edler-Salo
Ehrhoff-O'Brien
Alberts-Bieksa

miles ahead of that where there is more than one pairing I don't really trust.

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11-16-2012, 09:44 PM
  #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
The thing is Tallinder comes at a relatively cheap price (just Raymond) and the guy like timw33 said, a minute muncher. If we acquired Tallinder for that, I would not really ever be afraid of putting any pairing on any given night and not having them stink. If someone went down, I wouldn't really even have a problem with Alberts-Tallinder playing 15-20 minutes a night.

Compared to our 2010 D of:

Edler-Salo
Ehrhoff-O'Brien
Alberts-Bieksa

miles ahead of that where there is more than one pairing I don't really trust.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, simply that if we do decide to make an addition, I'd rather the quality be higher. Although I'm still not sure he plays the right side, which might make the discussion moot anyways. Ideally we should aim for a natural RH defenseman anyways.

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11-16-2012, 10:31 PM
  #437
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I just realized Petr Sykora(RW) hasn't been signed yet. I wonder why no one took a flyer on him. Why doesn't Gilis give him a 1 year try-out if we don't get anyone better from a Luongo trade?


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11-18-2012, 05:36 AM
  #438
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Noticed the other day that Brule is available, parted ways with club in Europe. Obviously that doesn't look very good, but I would take a flier on him anyways. His NHL numbers aren't actually all that bad considering what a gong show his career has turned out to be. Talk about mismanaging an asset.

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11-18-2012, 07:25 AM
  #439
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Some interesting thoughts here...
Imo, sykora is a bit old...feels like Sturm 2.0
Blum is a great target, but like Runblad, i would not expect him to come cheaply
Carolina for a raymond for D swap is a good idea

Wouls love to get Bjughead, but would Fla give him up?

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11-18-2012, 11:10 AM
  #440
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
How would people feel about Raymond for Tallinder? At least one Devils fan likes on the main boards and I think it's decent deal that rounds out our defensive corps given we pawn off Ballard (sorry Ballard, just a square peg, round hole with a 4.2 million hit) or waive him:

Hamhuis-Bieksa
Edler-Tallinder
Garrison-Tanev
Alberts

I'm not sure if Tallinder plays right side but I'm 60% sure he does, if not then I wouldn't do this deal. Of course, Tallinder and Tanev are interchangeable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by timw33 View Post
Tallinder can be a very steady minute muncher on the 2nd pairing. Really liked him when he was on Buffalo. I would do that deal if it meant we could move Ballard for a bottom 6 upgrade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I wouldn't want Tallinder as a permanent fixture in our top-4.

Maybe if
Hamhuis-Bieksa
Edler-Garrison
Tallinder-Tanev

would work, but otherwise I'd want to go after a higher quality RD if Garrison absolutely cannot work with Edler.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
The thing is Tallinder comes at a relatively cheap price (just Raymond) and the guy like timw33 said, a minute muncher. If we acquired Tallinder for that, I would not really ever be afraid of putting any pairing on any given night and not having them stink. If someone went down, I wouldn't really even have a problem with Alberts-Tallinder playing 15-20 minutes a night.

Compared to our 2010 D of:

Edler-Salo
Ehrhoff-O'Brien
Alberts-Bieksa

miles ahead of that where there is more than one pairing I don't really trust.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, simply that if we do decide to make an addition, I'd rather the quality be higher. Although I'm still not sure he plays the right side, which might make the discussion moot anyways. Ideally we should aim for a natural RH defenseman anyways.
tallinder is fantastic. with how he played in the finals after he came back, i see no way we can get him for anything close to just raymond. (though i also kind of get the sense lamoriello would be the kind of GM to see the speedy defensive potential in mayray and trade for him, strap him to a chair, prop his eyelids open, and make him watch clip after clip of forsberg bowling guys over while cutting to the middle.)

tallinder would be the perfect edler partner. i mean, he's just a ridiculously steady guy and could very much do for edler what mitchell and hamhuis have done for bieksa. just look at how tyler myers' game fell apart after tallinder left buffalo.

plus, he has playoff experience (unlike the florida guys we keep picking up) and was buffalo's best skater, and arguably their best player period, during their '06 run to the conference finals (note that buffalo fell apart and lost 3 of 4 when he got hurt).

also, did you see how good he was in those two games of the finals, coming back from his blood clot?

the x factors are sides, age, and injuries. he's not quite sami salo, but he doesn't exactly have a clean bill of health or a sterling injury history either. and he plays the LS (he's most recently been paired with myers and zidlicky, who are both RHS), but i think he was on the LS when he was paired with lydman back when they were buffalo's shutdown pairing the two long playoff runs. and is he due for a decline? hard to say-- he's a big guy but not overly physical; comparable to salo style-wise but with out the shot and with a little more snarl. seems like the kind of d-man who can maintain his level into his late 30s.

but side-wise, if we're ever going to seriously work on transitioning edler to the right side (and not just, say, randomly put him there in the playoffs), you'd want to give him a LS defenseman like tallinder. the LS thing makes this probably not going to work (or potentially gives us another garrison-type gamble), but i would just love to give edler that kind of a partner if tallinder can play the RS or if edler can switch (i guess garrison could very well be that partner for edler too).

the other thing that makes this probably not going to happen though is i see no reason why they wouldn't keep tallinder to pair with adam larsson (who is a RHS, btw).

but yeah, there's no question if we can swap him in with raymond going the other way, and ballard being dumped, we should jump on it. i wonder: does NJ have any interest in ballard? not sure what their needs are, but wouldn't it be great just to be able to give them mayray and k-ballz (worst radio drive-time team ever)?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Whale View Post
Noticed the other day that Brule is available, parted ways with club in Europe. Obviously that doesn't look very good, but I would take a flier on him anyways. His NHL numbers aren't actually all that bad considering what a gong show his career has turned out to be. Talk about mismanaging an asset.
another tambellini with some grit who can play defense? if he's willing to sign for tambellini's contract (league minimum, two way), yes please.

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11-25-2012, 12:42 PM
  #441
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I wonder...If we were to trade Edler for say, Voracek + 1st, do you guys think that given top-4 ice time and playing with Garrison on the PP Ballard might be able to bounce back into a solid top-4 dman?

Because I think we'd be better with Voracek + Florida's Ballard than Edler + third pairing Ballard.

And if we can pick up another piece like a 1st as well, then why not, I say? Would also save us somecap space when it's time for Edler's extension.

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11-25-2012, 01:24 PM
  #442
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I wonder...If we were to trade Edler for say, Voracek + 1st, do you guys think that given top-4 ice time and playing with Garrison on the PP Ballard might be able to bounce back into a solid top-4 dman?

Because I think we'd be better with Voracek + Florida's Ballard than Edler + third pairing Ballard.

And if we can pick up another piece like a 1st as well, then why not, I say? Would also save us somecap space when it's time for Edler's extension.


You're reasoning for this trade is sublime. Welcome to the dark side VKW.


As to the deal, I think Edler is more important to the future of this team. The value is there, but I look at Edler as a core player here. Anything short of an absurd overpayment won't do.

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11-25-2012, 01:25 PM
  #443
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I wonder...If we were to trade Edler for say, Voracek + 1st, do you guys think that given top-4 ice time and playing with Garrison on the PP Ballard might be able to bounce back into a solid top-4 dman?

Because I think we'd be better with Voracek + Florida's Ballard than Edler + third pairing Ballard.

And if we can pick up another piece like a 1st as well, then why not, I say? Would also save us somecap space when it's time for Edler's extension.
No. The team that trades the best player always loses and Edler is quite clearly the best player. Voracek + 1st is a joke of a return.

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11-25-2012, 01:29 PM
  #444
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No. The team that trades the best player always loses and Edler is quite clearly the best player. Voracek + 1st is a joke of a return.


I was going to say this, but there is one caveat: If the team losing the best player gets futures so good so as to have 1 piece eventually reach at or near the same level of the player dealt, it's not an auto-loss. That's the only case IMO where it's not a loss.


But yeah, this should tell people that we are automatically going to lose the Luongo deal (barring a meteoric rise from one of the futures coming back).

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11-25-2012, 01:31 PM
  #445
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I was going to say this, but there is one caveat: If the team losing the best player gets futures so good so as to have 1 piece eventually reach at or near the same level of the player dealt, it's not an auto-loss. That's the only case IMO where it's not a loss.
Yeah, I can see that if it's a Top 3 pick or something, but anything below that and in the short-term you're still losing out since you have to wait for the player to develop. In this case the 1st would likely be Bottom 10.

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11-25-2012, 01:41 PM
  #446
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Yeah, I can see that if it's a Top 3 pick or something, but anything below that and in the short-term you're still losing out since you have to wait for the player to develop. In this case the 1st would likely be Bottom 10.

Yeah, the development time does mean you lose out in the short-term. But since you'll get many more years out of that prospect it kind of balances the equation.


Any trade where you lose the best piece now is about long term gain for short term pain. If it's done right that is.

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11-25-2012, 02:09 PM
  #447
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No. The team that trades the best player always loses and Edler is quite clearly the best player. Voracek + 1st is a joke of a return.
Yeah, just like when Voracek was traded for Carter a year ago. Columbus easily won that trade!




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11-25-2012, 02:31 PM
  #448
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You're reasoning for this trade is sublime. Welcome to the dark side VKW.


As to the deal, I think Edler is more important to the future of this team. The value is there, but I look at Edler as a core player here. Anything short of an absurd overpayment won't do.
As I said, I think it would make us a better team now, assuming Ballard can rebound if given the opportunity. The 1st just makes it even more worthwhile.

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11-25-2012, 02:34 PM
  #449
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Quote:
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No. The team that trades the best player always loses and Edler is quite clearly the best player. Voracek + 1st is a joke of a return.
I agree with this. I wouldn't trade Edler for Voracek and a 1st. If we were getting Couturier and a 1st I would probably do it though.

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11-25-2012, 02:40 PM
  #450
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I agree with this. I wouldn't trade Edler for Voracek and a 1st. If we were getting Couturier and a 1st I would probably do it though.

screw that, I would only trade edler for both schenns, couturier and a 1st.

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