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11-25-2012, 10:43 AM
  #276
Bleach Clean
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Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
I don't see Kadri being a top 6 forward on a winning team. I don't like his attitude, he disappears, shows up out of shape, looks small out there. Not a fan and wouldn't trade Luongo for him thats for sure. Forget where he was drafted it means nothing and look at what he's done on the ice.


No one is advocating a Luongo for Kadri straight up trade. Other pieces would have to come from TO. My contention is that he should be _included_ in any deal with TO. That's it.


His attitude, fitness, size, defense, work ethic have all been questioned. Over and over again in fact. Yet from the moment he stepped onto AHL ice he's been PPG~. 41 points in 44 games. 40 points in 48 games. And now 15 in 16. Further, he elevates his game in the playoffs. So as a _prospect_, he's done nothing but excel at his niche through all the criticism.



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Originally Posted by ddawg1950 View Post
I think Kadri is a pretty talented guy and I was entertaining a lot of trade proposals previously that had him involved.

But I agree with you that his attitude is questionable.

Seen guys before that have the talent but the attitude gets in the way of realizing that talent's full potential.

Kadri throws up some caution signs.


Definitely. He's a gamble. Kadri can rise to the occasion or utterly fail and become a journeyman/AHL allstar. It's a risk. However, if included in a _package_ deal, his risk is mitigated by the other pieces involved.



Contrast this with taking Lupul, who has worn out his welcome with 3 NHL clubs by the age of 27. If the low end with Lupul is that you have to trade him as a salary dump, sending a player like Gardiner in tow to make it happen, why not instead take the chance on a Kadri? You don't have to give a Lupul level contract right away. Instead, you can find out what he can do and cut your losses _before_ it goes south. On the whole, it just makes too much sense not to do IMO.



Note: This assumes a trade with TO and a choice between a package involving Lupul or Kadri.

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11-25-2012, 10:45 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
No one is advocating a Luongo for Kadri straight up trade. Other pieces would have to come from TO. My contention is that he should be _included_ in any deal with TO. That's it.


His attitude, fitness, size, defense, work ethic have all been questioned. Over and over again in fact. Yet from the moment he stepped onto AHL ice he's been PPG~. 41 points in 44 games. 40 points in 48 games. And now 15 in 16. Further, he elevates his game in the playoffs. So as a _prospect_, he's done nothing but excel at his niche through all the criticism.







Definitely. He's a gamble. Kadri can rise to the occasion or utterly fail and become a journeyman/AHL allstar. It's a risk. However, if included in a _package_ deal, his risk is mitigated by the other pieces involved.



Contrast this with taking Lupul, who has worn out his welcome with 3 NHL clubs by the age of 27. If the low end with Lupul is that you have to trade him as a salary dump, sending a player like Gardiner in tow to make it happen, why not instead take the chance on a Kadri? You don't have to give a Lupul level contract right away. Instead, you can find out what he can do and cut your losses _before_ it goes south. On the whole, it just makes too much sense not to do IMO.



Note: This assumes a trade with TO and a choice between a package involving Lupul or Kadri.
Good point, and I do think the kid has talent. But attitude always raises a red flag for me.

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11-25-2012, 11:06 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I think Wilson has had a greater impact on Kadri's career than Bozak's own. A greater negative impact. Consider that prospects are already devalued compared to NHLers. When Kadri made mistakes, his punishment was to be sent down. When Bozak made mistakes, he'd be shifted in the line-up --> These things are worlds apart because Bozak was still afforded the opportunity to figure out the NHL. Not so for Kadri.
Coaches don't send players down, GM's do. Kadri has already been scratched and called out in the AHL this season, I don't know what makes you think he deserved to be figuring it out in the NHL the last couple seasons.

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11-25-2012, 11:17 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Coaches don't send players down, GM's do. Kadri has already been scratched and called out in the AHL this season, I don't know what makes you think he deserved to be figuring it out in the NHL the last couple seasons.
Rii dont want kadri or a trade with the Leafs but you should know Kadri was scratched because of a 3 games in 3 days period in their schedule... not because of his play.

Gotta love the AHL schedule!

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11-25-2012, 11:34 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
First and foremost, Kesler would never be bumped to the third line by anyone short of Getzlaf, Malkin and etc. He is a poor's first line center, therefore making him border overqualified to play on the second. Furthermore, you are targeting far too high caliber centers and would demand a hefty price tag. There is no scenario we acquire Plekanec without losing Hamhuis or Kesler. Montreal cavets him and unless they see a sizable offer, he will stay. Ribeiro was only just acquired by Washington, and even setting that aside. They will not bother chasing Luongo when a legitimate second line center is among their biggest weaknesses.

Your scenarios simply are unrealistic, unless we pay a premium that itself would not be worthwhile.
1st, I don't know why you get so caught up on 2nd vs 3rd line...they basically play the same amount at ES...if it makes you feel better how about this projected lineup:

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Higgins - Kesler - Hansen
Booth - Weiss/Getzlaf/Roy/Rebeiro - Kassian
Raymond - Lappiere - Wiese

In terms of value, this offseason:
-Rebeiro was traded for a 2nd and Gaunce level prospect.
-Roy was traded for Steve Ott and Adam Pardy

These are not astronomical returns for guys that would solidify our 2nd line + 2nd PP as an offensive threat.

To add $6M in salary, which is what would be required we would likely have to move a combination of Ballard/Luongo + Raymond/Maholtra.

With Weiss, Getzlaf, Roy, Fisher, MacDonald, and Rebeiro all being UFAs next year, I think its safe to assume one or more will be available (some already having been made available) with Roy and Rebeiro possibly hitting the market again depending on how their teams do (if there is a season).


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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The goal in the Luongo deal is to bring as much value back as possible, no matter what it's form. Setting your sights on a Kesler level return is completely unrealistic. Also, keeping Luongo indefinitely is also not an option. He wants out. So Gillis is on the clock.
You quoted me saying this "to acquire the pieces which will allow us to acquire a player like Kesler". The idea that we can't trade Luongo for pieces that could acquire a soon to be UFA of Kesler's caliber is scary given that Luongo does more to help our team win than Kesler does and is on a long-contract which is something that the player we would be trying to acquire likely isn't. If we can't get at least a 1st and two good prospects for Luongo, I'd say don't move him. Which brings up the 2nd point.

I disagree about not being able to keep Luongo for at least a season. He must realize there is a good chance that he can preform well enough to win his job back and will likely compete for it if no trade is made.

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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
This issue about Timeframe is confusing matters with posters IMO. Some want a "now" piece because they feel this is the best year for them to compete, but an all-or-nothing strategy completely misses the point of sustaining long-term success. You can get a now piece but you will lose that piece, or something else of equal salary, as soon as next year when the cap shrinks to 60m. What then?
We all see things differently. By next year, I would suggest that we have to make a decision in goal (save $4-$5.3M); either re-sign Edler or move Ballard into our top 4 (save $1m after considering Edler's raise + Ballard's replacement); let our non essential UFAs go (Maholtra + Raymond - save $3.5M after replacements). That should allow for us to add a strong 2nd liner $6M type guy.

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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Talking about Windows is fine. But you are ensuring your window is finite by making deals like this and just letting important assets walk a short time after. It's just not how you build a team.
IMO drafting superstars is the only way to extend a window as a contender.

Our drafted superstars are getting older and we have nothing that good coming down the pipe. Our window is the Sedin's window.

I am not suggesting that we trade for a UFA then make no attempt to re-sign them. I am suggesting we fill a need (i.e. offensively cabable centre) but the only way to get one of those is to acquire a soon to be UFA...otherwise they tend not hit the market. If someone wants to drop a Joe Thornton like trade in our laps I'd be happy to take it too.

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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
This is the same Dustin Penner that had his worst statistical season last year: 17 points in 65 games... Hardly a force. Gagne's body has basically broken down, resulting in 34 games played, and Stoll's season resulted in 21 points within 78 games. Basically, the recency of data makes all three players look highly suspect.

If we ignore the recency of data, then Jason Garrison doesn't get 4.6m per for 6 yrs. Gagne doesn't get traded for scraps. LA wouldn't be handcuffed with Penner's contract, and LA fans wouldn't be calling for Stoll's head throughout the season... but then they all put it together and so now we are viewing them in an idealized manner. I understand they have strong track records. But you have to put more weight in the last few years because that data set should be weighted (I've been corrected on this too in fact).

Consistency and health count. Higgins and Hansen are there every night, chipping in as well as backchecking. Raymond was doing this until he broke his back. We cannot discount their top6 ability while in the same breath overvaluing the play the of the players you just listed, who did not perform at a top6 rate this past year. There's got to be a balance in the analysis.
I am a big fan of focusing on peak ability not consistency. In the playoffs guys with consistency issues often shine because they are highly motivated and give 100% every night, something that is impossible to do during the regular season. I've gone as far as suggesting that Kesler should take more regular season shifts/games off to ensure he is ready for the playoffs even during the season last year...we decided to play him 20 minutes a night while injured going down the stretch instead and he was a broken shadow of himself during the playoffs.

Also, I don't care that Mike Richards scored 44 points last year, in my mind, he and Kesler are equal going into any playoffs series where they are both healthy. If you really want to compare forwards between LAK and VAN:

Kopitar = H. Sedin
Brown < D. Sedin
Richards = Kesler
Carter >> Burrows
Williams >> Booth
Penner > Higgins
Stoll > Hansen
Gagne >>> Raymond


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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
While I agree that the Canucks could use better offensive depth (what team couldn't?), what you are advocating is unsustainable. Why do you think Gillis didn't go after Ribeiro or Roy? I'm guessing it had something to do with their salary, and the expected drop to a 60m cap next year.
I would rather spend money on either Roy or Rebeiro than Maholtra and Ballard going into next season. A 3rd NHL level 2nd line centre is a long-term need IMO or at least a top 3rd line guy that can produce some offense like Bolland.

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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
It's basically two camps it seems. The "now" group who want to go all in this year, wanting the best NHL piece coming back for Luongo, regardless of the consequences at the end of the year. And the other group, who wants futures and mid-aged players that haven't warranted a huge raise, in an attempt to fit as much talent on the roster this year _and_ subsequent years. The divide is becoming clear...
Yes, I believe we need to go all-in now and every year that the Sedins have left. That doesn't mean not trying to re-sign the asset we acquire though. It's not as black and white as you make it seem.

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11-25-2012, 11:43 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Coaches don't send players down, GM's do. Kadri has already been scratched and called out in the AHL this season, I don't know what makes you think he deserved to be figuring it out in the NHL the last couple seasons.



And who does the GM trust above all? The Coach. Coaches can kill a player.



Did Eakins not in fact do a complete 180 on his Kadri diatribe? But now he's doing well, so Eakins is a god. The fact is, patience in coach is very important for young players. Wilson had none. Eakins is also "base" in his assessment of players and it has made him look foolish IMO.

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11-25-2012, 12:11 PM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
Kopitar = H. Sedin
Brown < D. Sedin
Richards = Kesler
Carter >> Burrows
Williams >> Booth
Penner > Higgins
Stoll > Hansen
Gagne >>> Raymond
H. Sedin > Kopitar
D. Sedin >> Carter
Richards = Kesler
Brown > Burrows
Williams > Booth
Penner = Higgins
Stoll = Hansen
Gagne >> Raymond

But injuries throw everything out of wack for us.

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11-25-2012, 12:52 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
H. Sedin > Kopitar
D. Sedin >> Carter
Richards = Kesler
Brown > Burrows
Williams > Booth
Penner = Higgins
Stoll = Hansen
Gagne >> Raymond

But injuries throw everything out of wack for us.
Williams > Booth - I think this one is pretty close, if both are playing well, otherwise it goes to who ever happens to be playing well (I keep seeing Booth playing like he was before the knee injurry)
Penner = Higgins - This all depends on if Penner is playing like he can our like his pancakes are here at the table and he is disinterested. Really Penner playing like he can is unstoppable, but otherwise just about as useless as said pancakes.
Stoll = Hansen - Fair enough, Stoll does probably have a bit more offensive upside
Gagne >> - Raymond Because of recent injuries to both, probably pretty even, tough to say where Gagne is, and Raymond is on his way back to 20/20. Gagne is more talented for sure though.

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11-25-2012, 01:06 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
And who does the GM trust above all? The Coach. Coaches can kill a player.



Did Eakins not in fact do a complete 180 on his Kadri diatribe? But now he's doing well, so Eakins is a god. The fact is, patience in coach is very important for young players. Wilson had none. Eakins is also "base" in his assessment of players and it has made him look foolish IMO.
Say whatever you like, but Eakins is anything but foolish. Every young player respects him (yes even Kadri) and the older guys like Zigo and Aucoin play hard for him. Even Paul Ranger is giving him rave reviews.

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11-25-2012, 01:20 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Say whatever you like, but Eakins is anything but foolish. Every young player respects him (yes even Kadri) and the older guys like Zigo and Aucoin play hard for him. Even Paul Ranger is giving him rave reviews.


That comment, without a doubt, made Eakins look foolish. He is not a fool, I didn't call him that. I was only referring to the comment itself. He may be a solid coach, earning the respect of his players, but there is no even keel in his assessment of Kadri. It was a complete 180. All the way negative, or syrupy positive. He should not have been as dire in his reprimand, nor as positive in his turn of face. It made him look foolish to me.


Good on Kadri for working through it.


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 11-25-2012 at 03:10 PM.
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11-25-2012, 01:22 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
H. Sedin > Kopitar
D. Sedin >> Carter
Richards = Kesler
Brown > Burrows
Williams > Booth
Penner = Higgins
Stoll = Hansen
Gagne >> Raymond

But injuries throw everything out of wack for us.
I think Kopitar is a better player today than HSedin, personally.

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11-25-2012, 01:36 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by ganja View Post
I think Kopitar is a better player today than HSedin, personally.
Your username suits you then

Kopitar is a better 2 way player but Henrik is an elite #1 center, i wouldnt consider Kopitar one.

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11-25-2012, 01:49 PM
  #288
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1st, I don't know why you get so caught up on 2nd vs 3rd line...they basically play the same amount at ES...if it makes you feel better how about this projected lineup:

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Higgins - Kesler - Hansen
Booth - Weiss/Getzlaf/Roy/Rebeiro - Kassian
Raymond - Lappiere - Wiese

In terms of value, this offseason:
-Rebeiro was traded for a 2nd and Gaunce level prospect.
-Roy was traded for Steve Ott and Adam Pardy

These are not astronomical returns for guys that would solidify our 2nd line + 2nd PP as an offensive threat.

To add $6M in salary, which is what would be required we would likely have to move a combination of Ballard/Luongo + Raymond/Maholtra.

With Weiss, Getzlaf, Roy, Fisher, MacDonald, and Rebeiro all being UFAs next year, I think its safe to assume one or more will be available (some already having been made available) with Roy and Rebeiro possibly hitting the market again depending on how their teams do (if there is a season).
There is a degree of caliber associated with lines, thus the terms "top/bottom six". Few players would fancy the demotion. In fact, that was Staal's primary reason for asking to be traded from Pittsburgh. He knew full well he would never grow from outside Malkin or Crosby's shadow. Even for a team running three lines, it is rare to see someone like Kesler or Getzlaf anywhere near the third line for long stretches.

Buffalo was ripped off considerably, not to mention Roy had issues both with the team and injuries. Ribeiro is a non-factor seeing Washington just acquired him. Frankly, if GMs and coaches were unconcerned with lines. Many could have easily topped Washington.

What we need is a top six winger, not another center. Earlier you cited Boston as an example, except during their run. They had only two high level centers: Krejci and Bergeron. Incidentally, neither come close to Sedin, and Seguin was struggling at this time. As for Carter, I recall him being shifted to the wing a fair bit. Regardless, it is simply not realistic. Teams that do have excess centers, have them out of youth emergence and often end up trading one, ala Pittsburgh.

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11-25-2012, 02:11 PM
  #289
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Ryan Kesler is at his best when he's matching up against the opposition's best.

I don't care what they call that line, but that is when he's at his best.

If that means his linemates are Hansen and Higgins, while Schroeder or someone else get to play with Booth and Kassian(or whomever)...that is what I want to see.

25 goal 55-60 point Kelser is a better hockey player than 40 goal Kesler.

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11-25-2012, 02:13 PM
  #290
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Kelly is a really, really good third line center though. Up there with Bolland, Stoll, Sutter and whoever Colorado plays on their third line for top 5 in the league.

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11-25-2012, 02:31 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Ryan Kesler is at his best when he's matching up against the opposition's best.

I don't care what they call that line, but that is when he's at his best.

If that means his linemates are Hansen and Higgins, while Schroeder or someone else get to play with Booth and Kassian(or whomever)...that is what I want to see.

25 goal 55-60 point Kelser is a better hockey player than 40 goal Kesler.
Yet 40 goal Kesler is who won the Selke.

The point is we have no need of acquiring another center and if we did pick up say, Getzaf. Either he or Kesler would be shifted to the wing, not on the third line. Sorry to say but a line of Booth/Schroeder/Kassian is awful, unless they all have breakout years.

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Kelly is a really, really good third line center though. Up there with Bolland, Stoll, Sutter and whoever Colorado plays on their third line for top 5 in the league.
Undoubtedly, sort of similar to Kesler being a poor man's first line center. Thing is, if you move them up to the top six, they are nowhere near as valuable. Chicago used Kane, who isn't even a center, over Bolland for a reason.

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11-25-2012, 02:32 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by ganja View Post
I think Kopitar is a better player today than HSedin, personally.
Agreed. Offensively last season there wasn't much difference between the two. Kopitar is also much better in his own end, and plays more physical. Looking at Kopitar's playoff numbers he played consistently well in the playoffs, whereas Henrik only really had 1 good series during our run.

I take Kopitar over Henrik 10 times out of 10.

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11-25-2012, 02:40 PM
  #293
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I think Kopitar is a better player today than HSedin, personally.
Suit yourself. I disagree.

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11-25-2012, 02:49 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Agreed. Offensively last season there wasn't much difference between the two. Kopitar is also much better in his own end, and plays more physical. Looking at Kopitar's playoff numbers he played consistently well in the playoffs, whereas Henrik only really had 1 good series during our run.

I take Kopitar over Henrik 10 times out of 10.


which is ppg, which is similiar to what H.sedin has been putting up for the last years.


Kopitar faced much weaker defensive pairings along the kings cup run.

Sedin faced arguably the toughest defensive pairings possible, keith-seabrook, weber-suter, chara-seidenberg.

Also the kings were much deeper on the 2nd-4th lines, which took a lot of pressure off their top line.


Kopitar is a bit bigger, and a better finisher.


H.Sedin is a much better playmaker.


Pretty close.

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11-25-2012, 02:52 PM
  #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
which is ppg, which is similiar to what H.sedin has been putting up for the last years.


Kopitar faced much weaker defensive pairings along the kings cup run.

Sedin faced arguably the toughest defensive pairings possible, keith-seabrook, weber-suter, chara-seidenberg.

Also the kings were much deeper on the 2nd-4th lines, which took a lot of pressure off their top line.


Kopitar is a bit bigger, and a better finisher.


H.Sedin is a much better playmaker.


Pretty close.
Take out the SJ series and Henrik produced at a 0.50 points per game pace (that is, for 3 of the 4 series he was not producing as a top line player). I'll take the player who's more consistent any day.

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11-25-2012, 03:04 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Take out the SJ series and Henrik produced at a 0.50 points per game pace (that is, for 3 of the 4 series he was not producing as a top line player). I'll take the player who's more consistent any day.
stopped reading right there....

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11-25-2012, 03:09 PM
  #297
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stopped reading right there....


You should have stopped when Y2K had posted on a Sedin topic.

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11-25-2012, 03:13 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
which is ppg, which is similiar to what H.sedin has been putting up for the last years.


Kopitar faced much weaker defensive pairings along the kings cup run.

Sedin faced arguably the toughest defensive pairings possible, keith-seabrook, weber-suter, chara-seidenberg.

Also the kings were much deeper on the 2nd-4th lines, which took a lot of pressure off their top line.


Kopitar is a bit bigger, and a better finisher.


H.Sedin is a much better playmaker.


Pretty close.
Similar to my thoughts and then I factored in age and their career trends which leads to a win for Kopitar.

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11-25-2012, 03:21 PM
  #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
stopped reading right there....
Of course you did, because you'd prefer to think that Henrik played well in the 2011 playoffs, when really if it weren't for ONE series, his stats would have been very very lousy. I prefer to break down his body of work and analyze it, and he did not show up for THREE of the four series. Meanwhile, Anze Kopitar was dangerous and good in all FOUR series.

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11-25-2012, 03:21 PM
  #300
Dirkph
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmon View Post
stopped reading right there....
Agreed. I never really understood the "take out"..."and" thing.

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