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Lidstrom's place in history - ALL DISCUSSIONS OF LIDSTROM'S "ALL TIME RANKING" HERE

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Old
11-24-2012, 06:52 PM
  #26
jkrx
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Anyone else think its pretty ironic that a thread dedicated to the Lidström banter is currently being a place to discuss Robinsons place in history?

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11-24-2012, 07:11 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Anyone else think its pretty ironic that a thread dedicated to the Lidström banter is currently being a place to discuss Robinsons place in history?
Someone needs to start a thread for Robinson or Habs' d-men, so that we can properly discuss Lidstrom's legacy there.

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Old
11-24-2012, 08:30 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Easy the OP had Potvin, robinson, Savard and Lapointe all on the same tier and Potvin is around 6, Robinson low teens and Savard and Lapointe are both closer to 60 IMO than there are to Potvin.
Actually, it sounded like you were saying that Robinson, Lapointe and Savard are being overrated because of how good their team was.
That is what I wanted clarified.

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11-24-2012, 11:08 PM
  #29
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Lidstrom won the Norris seven times. He was named to the First Team ten times. He was voted best defenseman by one of those two measures He was named to the second team twice.

Many make the argument against Lidstrom that he didn't break out into the league's top-tier right away like Bourque, Orr, etc. did. But those same people will also turn around and say that Bourque's prime was better despite fewer Norrises, because it was "a very deep pool of elite defensemen all in their primes" with Bourque competing with Coffey, Chelios, Stevens, MacInnis, Leetch, Murphy, and Housley.

And that deep group of prime defensemen just happened to coincide with the start of Lidstrom's career. Yet Lidstrom still had the following finishes:

1992: 8th in All-Star voting as a rookie, 2nd in Calder
1994: 8th Norris, 17th All-Star.
1996: 6th Norris, 6th AS.
1997: 6th Norris, 6th AS.
1998: 2nd Norris, 1st AS
1999: 2nd Norris, 2nd AS
2000: 2nd Norris, 2nd AS
2001: 1st Norris, 1st AS
2002: 1st Norris, 1st AS
2003: 1st Norris, 1st AS
2004: 6th Norris, 5th AS
2006: 1st Norris, 1st AS
2007: 1st Norris, 1st AS
2008: 1st Norris, 1st AS
2009: 3rd Norris, 3rd AS
2010: 4th Norris, 4th AS
2011: 1st Norris, 1st AS
2012: 5th Norris, 5th AS

So basically, Lidstrom entered the league as a top 10 defenseman. And as he rounded into his mid 20s, he became more polished and moved into a top 6 slot, which soon became a top-two and then a top-one slot. Even at the end, he was still a top-five defenseman. Which group of defensemen is better? What Lidstrom has played against the past four years, or what Bourque played against from 98-01?

Lidstrom, to me, is better than Bourque. Bourque has gaudier offensive totals, but just like with forwards we have to remember that those big numbers were 80s and early 90s. And it's notable that the big scoring differences between now/DPE and then are largely made up by bottom sixers and defensemen, not top-line players. So gaudy defense scoring from that era (Coffey, Bourque, Housley, etc.) is more about the style of play than the talent of the individual player.


Last edited by pdd: 11-24-2012 at 11:13 PM.
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Old
11-24-2012, 11:13 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
What Lidstrom has played against the past four years, or what Bourque played against from 98-01?
I'd say definitely the group Bourque played against, although somewhat ironically the single biggest reason for that is Nick Lidstrom himself. But besides Lids, there still a higher top end (Pronger in 99/00, MacInnis in 98/99), and more high-end depth. No one as deficient as Mike Green was placing highly in the Norris trophy voting then.

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11-24-2012, 11:26 PM
  #31
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I mean by metric of end-year all star finishes, Bourque is therefore a top 2 defensemen for 13 years of his career, a top 4 for 6 other years, and inside the 13 years of being a top 2 defensemen he won the norris trophy 5 times so he's the top defensemen for 5 years.

I suppose if you dig up the all-star team voting past just the first/second team you could probably say that Ray was at worst a top 10 defensemen for 3 years at the end of his career, while the other 19 years of career with top 4 material...


Basically, I don't see the approach for Lidstrom>Bourque in the regular season, especailly via all-star team voting/finishes. To me the only place where Lidstrom has an advantage over Bourque is in the post-season, but even then it's hard to discern just because Bourque was never on a powerhouse team and didn't play as many playoff games as lidstrom due to that very fact.


Last edited by Wrath: 11-24-2012 at 11:32 PM.
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11-24-2012, 11:50 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Lidstrom won the Norris seven times. He was named to the First Team ten times. He was voted best defenseman by one of those two measures He was named to the second team twice.

Many make the argument against Lidstrom that he didn't break out into the league's top-tier right away like Bourque, Orr, etc. did. But those same people will also turn around and say that Bourque's prime was better despite fewer Norrises, because it was "a very deep pool of elite defensemen all in their primes" with Bourque competing with Coffey, Chelios, Stevens, MacInnis, Leetch, Murphy, and Housley.

And that deep group of prime defensemen just happened to coincide with the start of Lidstrom's career. Yet Lidstrom still had the following finishes:

1992: 8th in All-Star voting as a rookie, 2nd in Calder
1993: 0 Norris votes, 0 AS votes.
1994: 8th Norris, 17th All-Star.
1995: 0 Norris votes, 0 AS votes.
1996: 6th Norris, 6th AS.
1997: 6th Norris, 6th AS.
1998: 2nd Norris, 1st AS
1999: 2nd Norris, 2nd AS
2000: 2nd Norris, 2nd AS
2001: 1st Norris, 1st AS
2002: 1st Norris, 1st AS
2003: 1st Norris, 1st AS
2004: 6th Norris, 5th AS
2006: 1st Norris, 1st AS
2007: 1st Norris, 1st AS
2008: 1st Norris, 1st AS
2009: 3rd Norris, 3rd AS
2010: 4th Norris, 4th AS
2011: 1st Norris, 1st AS
2012: 5th Norris, 5th AS

So basically, Lidstrom entered the league as a top 10 defenseman. And as he rounded into his mid 20s, he became more polished and moved into a top 6 slot, which soon became a top-two and then a top-one slot. Even at the end, he was still a top-five defenseman. Which group of defensemen is better? What Lidstrom has played against the past four years, or what Bourque played against from 98-01?

Lidstrom, to me, is better than Bourque. Bourque has gaudier offensive totals, but just like with forwards we have to remember that those big numbers were 80s and early 90s. And it's notable that the big scoring differences between now/DPE and then are largely made up by bottom sixers and defensemen, not top-line players. So gaudy defense scoring from that era (Coffey, Bourque, Housley, etc.) is more about the style of play than the talent of the individual player.
Just so I'm getting this straight...the argument here is that Lidstrom entered the league as a top 8 D-man and when he did move up the ladder as it were, was '98 and that his competion was so vast from '98-'01 that he should be ranked above Bourque?

Couple o things...

Bourque:
79-80: 4th Norris 1st Team AS, 1st in Calder
80-81: 4th Norris 2nd Team AS
81-82: 2nd Norris 1st Team AS
82-83: 3rd Norris 2nd Team AS
83-84: 3rd Norris 1st Team AS
84-85: 2nd Norris 1st Team AS
85-86: 4th Norris 2nd Team AS
86-87: 1st Norris 1rst Team AS
87-88: 1st Norris 1rst Team AS
88-89: 4th Norris 2nd TeamAS
89-90: 1st Norris 1rst Team AS Should have won the Hart
90-91: 1st Norris 1rst Team AS
91-92: 2nd Norris 1rst Team AS
92-93: 2nd Norris 1rst Team AS
93-94: 1st Norris 1rst Team AS
94-95: 3rd Norris 2nd Team AS
95-96: 2nd Norris 1rst Team AS
96-97: 8th Norris
97-98: 7th Norris
98-99: 3rd Norris 2nd Team AS
99-00: 7th Norris
00-01: 2nd Norris 1rst Team AS

Bourque basically entered the league as a top 4 D-men and stayed that way for 19 of his 22 seasons.
Yeah...that about takes care of that part of the argument, next...

D-men ages from '98-'01
Coffey 37-40
Bourque 38-41
Chelios 36-39
Stevens 34-37
MacInnis 35-38
Leetch 30-33
Murphy 37-40
Housley 34-37


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 11-25-2012 at 12:25 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old
11-25-2012, 12:17 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
So basically, Lidstrom entered the league as a top 10 defenseman. And as he rounded into his mid 20s, he became more polished and moved into a top 6 slot, which soon became a top-two and then a top-one slot. Even at the end, he was still a top-five defenseman.
Your summary skipped over the 92-93 through 94-95 seasons pretty glibly.

While Lidstrom had the 8th best AS vote total in his rookie year, he received exactly one third place AS vote in his next three season combined out of 119 ballots submitted. If the voting proves that he "entered the league as a top 10 defenseman", it also proves that he was not a top-10 defenseman for three straight seasons in his early 20s.

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11-25-2012, 12:53 AM
  #34
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I don't understand why Lidstrom's competition indirect competition with other dmen in his time is even given consideration. It's out of his control in the first place, second even if it wasn't, 90s dmen were effin fantastic. The only advantage he had was that around 2001-2008ish due to poor 90s drafting and 90s dmen getting old, it was a bit easier to win than this period or in the 90s however he was still deserving of those Norris trophies or at least being nominated (Chara/Weber probably should've gotten it in '11).

Also I don't think that Savard or Robinson or Lapointe for example are in the same tier but at the same time I don't think that they're as far apart as Bobby Orr or Harvey for the difference to be between 1 to around 60 as others suggest.

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11-25-2012, 04:52 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Just so I'm getting this straight...the argument here is that Lidstrom entered the league as a top 8 D-man and when he did move up the ladder as it were, was '98 and that his competion was so vast from '98-'01 that he should be ranked above Bourque?
I didn't really get that either. I re-read it. Personally it seems like another poster is going to great lengths to pretend Lidstrom is ahead of Bourque. I've said it before, other than amount of Cups and a slightly better playoff portfolio there is nothing in an aspect of the game that Lidstrom did better than Bourque. I don't really get the thing from 1998-'01. Bourque was old by then and comparing that to Lidstrom in the last 4 years isn't exactly the best argument that Lidstrom had it tougher. I mean, an old Bourque had MacInnis, Blake, Lidstrom himself, Pronger in that era and still finished his career with a 1st team all-star. But more importantly Bourque blows Lidstrom out of the water when you are evalutating their first 10 years of their careers. That's where the seperation becomes so far that even the Norrises when Lidstrom was in his 30s don't make up for it.

See, Bourque entered the league as a First team all-star as a rookie and he hardly looked back. If you asked who was the best defenseman in the 1980s overall the answer is Bourque. If you asked that for the 1990s, the answer is still Bourque as a whole. In a way Bourque has a Gretzky-like type of longevity since Gretzky also led the entire 1990s in scoring. Give Lidstrom the 2000s, but it ends there. He wasn't better than Bourque in the 1990s when their careers overlapped. Lidstrom in his prime in 2001 vs. an old Bourque after 22 NHL seasons and about to retire still had Bourque finishing 2nd in Norris voting.

Sorry, nothing agains Nik, but when you are talking about players of this magnitude you are comparing him to he's going to get knocked down a peg.

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11-25-2012, 11:26 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by QuietCompany View Post
I don't understand why Lidstrom's competition indirect competition with other dmen in his time is even given consideration. It's out of his control in the first place, second even if it wasn't, 90s dmen were effin fantastic. The only advantage he had was that around 2001-2008ish due to poor 90s drafting and 90s dmen getting old, it was a bit easier to win than this period or in the 90s however he was still deserving of those Norris trophies or at least being nominated (Chara/Weber probably should've gotten it in '11).
It doesn't make him better or worse, it's just context for awards and adulation.

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11-25-2012, 11:54 AM
  #37
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I'm saying he belongs on the second tier behind Orr; and that Robinson, Savard, and Lapointe should be considered for that second tier as well.
Robinson was a good deal above Lapointe or Savard and yes, him and Potvin belong on the next tier. Savard and Lapointe belong a bit lower.

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11-25-2012, 11:55 AM
  #38
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Lidstrom is no better than #5 for me and the same players ahead of him are the same ones everyone else has. The only way someone puts Bourque behind Lidstrom on an all-time list is if they never saw Bourque play, simply put. If you want to get solely into Cup counting then this is where Lidstrom beats him but it ends there. Pretty much everything else about Bourque puts him higher than Lidstrom (peak value, longevity, physcial play, offense, more valuable to the team). Defense is more or less a tie and if you want to say Lidstrom is a slightly better playoff performer then fine. But this is a clear case for Bourque.

Potvin being 6th is more or less is own doing I think. He retired at 35 years old. Lidstrom left much of his legacy from 35-41 which helps him. Had Lidstrom retired at 35 years old he is noticeably behind Potvin, but he didn't so you can reward him for elite play after that age. Overall it is hard to put Potvin ahead of Lidstrom from a career standpoint. That being said, if you watch Potvin play the game in his prime and in those Cup winning years you realize he was the better defenseman than Lidstrom. So my take on this is:

Lidstrom better career, Potvin better peak and better at his best. Therefore overall you have to point to Lidstrom's longevity and give him the edge.
Completely agree.

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11-25-2012, 12:39 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Actually, it sounded like you were saying that Robinson, Lapointe and Savard are being overrated because of how good their team was.
That is what I wanted clarified.
I think that this might be the case for Savard and Lapointe but not for Robinson.

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11-25-2012, 12:47 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Your summary skipped over the 92-93 through 94-95 seasons pretty glibly.

While Lidstrom had the 8th best AS vote total in his rookie year, he received exactly one third place AS vote in his next three season combined out of 119 ballots submitted. If the voting proves that he "entered the league as a top 10 defenseman", it also proves that he was not a top-10 defenseman for three straight seasons in his early 20s.
I agree and have stated that over that period of time it's pretty safe to say he was a top 20 Dman over that period.

He was 17th in scoring for Dmen over that period and it's not like he grew into a defensive player later either. He might have been tagged "perfect" later, which I really hate as a description, but he was pretty darned good in those 1st 3 years as well.

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11-25-2012, 01:01 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I think that this might be the case for Savard and Lapointe but not for Robinson.
That's exactly what I wanted clarified before I jumped down your throat heh.
Although, I don't find Savard and Lapointe coming in around the 30 each mark as overrated. Especially Savard, if not for breaking his leg really badly, he would have ended up much higher in the rankings IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I agree and have stated that over that period of time it's pretty safe to say he was a top 20 Dman over that period.

He was 17th in scoring for Dmen over that period and it's not like he grew into a defensive player later either. He might have been tagged "perfect" later, which I really hate as a description, but he was pretty darned good in those 1st 3 years as well.
And you know, that's all well and good when talking about him vs other D-men in the league at that time. However, as Phil said earlier, as soon as the context is Bourque, those years stand out like a sore thumb.
Lidstrom was above average to good those years, nothing more, nothing less.
Anything more is pure and simple revisionism.

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11-25-2012, 01:30 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Darth Joker View Post
I think that after Orr, there's a list of 4 or 5 defensemen that make up the First "After-Orr" Tier. Lidstrom is in that tier, along with Harvey, Bourque, Shore, and maybe Potvin.

I think that pretty reasonable arguments can be made for any conceivable ordering of them, although after reading through recent threads on this board, I'm:

1. Convinced that Bourque should be ahead of Lidstrom.

2. Inclined to think that Potvin is probably 6th, solidly ahead of the next tier but at the bottom of this first tier.


So the highest I'd put Lidstrom is 3rd, and the lowest I'd put him is 5th.

On an all-time list involving players of all positions, Lidstrom would be in my Top 20.
I would put Kelly in that tier as well , as I think he is much closer to Potvin than he is to Robinson.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 11-25-2012 at 01:53 PM.
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11-25-2012, 03:10 PM
  #43
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Alphabetical Tiers
Orr
Bourque/Harvey/Shore
Potvin
Coffey/Kelly/Lidstrom/Robinson


I'd put Lidstrom as probably the #7 defenseman - but in the #30-35 range of all positions.

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11-25-2012, 04:47 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Your summary skipped over the 92-93 through 94-95 seasons pretty glibly.

While Lidstrom had the 8th best AS vote total in his rookie year, he received exactly one third place AS vote in his next three season combined out of 119 ballots submitted. If the voting proves that he "entered the league as a top 10 defenseman", it also proves that he was not a top-10 defenseman for three straight seasons in his early 20s.
Do you have the conference voting for the Norris from 1994-95 showing that he wasn't considered top-ten? Lidstrom was top-20 in defense scoring and served as a defensive lock for Coffey, who scored an insane 58 points in 45 games to win the Norris. Most of the guy ahead of Lidstrom were defensively average or liabilities; guys like Galley, Housley, Brown, Norton, Schneider, and Zalapski. But Coffey's scoring? That doesn't happen without Lidstrom as his partner. It was even debated by fans as to whether Coffey was even the best defenseman on the team. Lidstrom with a more defensively capable player would have scored another ~10 points, and likely been right in the thick of Norris voting.

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11-25-2012, 05:24 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Just so I'm getting this straight...the argument here is that Lidstrom entered the league as a top 8 D-man and when he did move up the ladder as it were, was '98 and that his competion was so vast from '98-'01 that he should be ranked above Bourque?

Couple o things...

Bourque:
79-80: 4th Norris 1st Team AS, 1st in Calder
80-81: 4th Norris 2nd Team AS
81-82: 2nd Norris 1st Team AS
82-83: 3rd Norris 2nd Team AS
83-84: 3rd Norris 1st Team AS
84-85: 2nd Norris 1st Team AS
85-86: 4th Norris 2nd Team AS
86-87: 1st Norris 1rst Team AS
87-88: 1st Norris 1rst Team AS
88-89: 4th Norris 2nd TeamAS
89-90: 1st Norris 1rst Team AS Should have won the Hart
90-91: 1st Norris 1rst Team AS
91-92: 2nd Norris 1rst Team AS
92-93: 2nd Norris 1rst Team AS
93-94: 1st Norris 1rst Team AS
94-95: 3rd Norris 2nd Team AS
95-96: 2nd Norris 1rst Team AS
96-97: 8th Norris
97-98: 7th Norris
98-99: 3rd Norris 2nd Team AS
99-00: 7th Norris
00-01: 2nd Norris 1rst Team AS

Bourque basically entered the league as a top 4 D-men and stayed that way for 19 of his 22 seasons.
Yeah...that about takes care of that part of the argument, next...

D-men ages from '98-'01
Coffey 37-40
Bourque 38-41
Chelios 36-39
Stevens 34-37
MacInnis 35-38
Leetch 30-33
Murphy 37-40
Housley 34-37
Let's take a look at something...

What was Bourque's competition like when he came into the league?

Past-prime Robinson, Prime Potvin, Prime Langway, Prime Wilson and Prime Carlyle from the previous generation of defensemen. The above listed plus Mark Howe as guys who started their NHL career during Bourque's career. So Bourque only had to compete with a couple of top-notch defensemen in Robinson and Potvin, plus a very good defenseman in Langway and solid peaks in Wilson and Carlyle. Far thinner than what Lidstrom had to contend with. If you take rookie Bourque and start him in 1991-92, does he get on the All-Star team right away? Probably not. Not for a few seasons at least. He was not named the best defenseman in the NHL by either Norris or AS until his 8th season, compared to Lidstrom in his 7th. As of the 12th season for each, Bourque held the Norris advantage by one. But that turned around by season 16.

And ultimately, if we're going to give equal credit for Bourque's early-career AS selections as we do to any of Lidstrom's, then we have to give equal credit (per Norris) for Lidstrom's seven Norrises in ten years as we do four Bourque's five in eight years.

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11-25-2012, 05:53 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Do you have the conference voting for the Norris from 1994-95 showing that he wasn't considered top-ten? Lidstrom was top-20 in defense scoring and served as a defensive lock for Coffey, who scored an insane 58 points in 45 games to win the Norris. Most of the guy ahead of Lidstrom were defensively average or liabilities; guys like Galley, Housley, Brown, Norton, Schneider, and Zalapski. But Coffey's scoring? That doesn't happen without Lidstrom as his partner. It was even debated by fans as to whether Coffey was even the best defenseman on the team. Lidstrom with a more defensively capable player would have scored another ~10 points, and likely been right in the thick of Norris voting.
Coffey gets banged around a lot on these boards (something I don't agree with) but I don't think even his sharpest critics think he deserved anything but the Norris in 1995. He was getting Hart votes then too. In 1996 he finished 5th in Norris voting and that's where it ends. I think if you look at Coffey's career you can basically say that his last hurrah was the 1996 World Cup where he played well. Then Detroit trades him to a poor team (Hartford) and it almost seemed as if that took the wind out of his sails. I guess he had nothing left in the tank. But either way in the mid 1990s he was Detroit's best defenseman no doubt.

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11-25-2012, 06:00 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Let's take a look at something...

What was Bourque's competition like when he came into the league?

Past-prime Robinson, Prime Potvin, Prime Langway, Prime Wilson and Prime Carlyle from the previous generation of defensemen. The above listed plus Mark Howe as guys who started their NHL career during Bourque's career. So Bourque only had to compete with a couple of top-notch defensemen in Robinson and Potvin, plus a very good defenseman in Langway and solid peaks in Wilson and Carlyle. Far thinner than what Lidstrom had to contend with. If you take rookie Bourque and start him in 1991-92, does he get on the All-Star team right away? Probably not. Not for a few seasons at least. He was not named the best defenseman in the NHL by either Norris or AS until his 8th season, compared to Lidstrom in his 7th. As of the 12th season for each, Bourque held the Norris advantage by one. But that turned around by season 16.

And ultimately, if we're going to give equal credit for Bourque's early-career AS selections as we do to any of Lidstrom's, then we have to give equal credit (per Norris) for Lidstrom's seven Norrises in ten years as we do four Bourque's five in eight years.
Bourque also had to compete with a still very good Salming and an emerging Coffey in those early years. I can also see him beating out guys like Murphy and Iafrate for early career all star berths if he is transported to 1992.

I would like to see evidence for why Harvey is better than Lidstrom. Lidstrom seems to have a slight longevity edge, but peaks and primes seem very close.

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11-25-2012, 06:03 PM
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Eisen
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What about an argument for Lids over Shore? Can that be made?
For me (only a gut feeling), he could be the easiest to bump out of thew top4


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11-25-2012, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post

I would like to see evidence for why Harvey is better than Lidstrom. Lidstrom seems to have a slight longevity edge, but peaks and primes seem very close.
Peak.

A wide variety of sources say that Harvey controlled the pace of the game in a manner comparable to Bobby Orr.

Pretty much every opinion that I've seen of people old enough to watch Harvey play (from posters on this website to guys like Scottie Bowman) consider Harvey to have been better at his best than Bourque.

This is supported by the Norris and All-Star voting where, once Harvey hit his stride, he blew away the competition, including a peak Red Kelly. Compare to Ray Bourque who lost Norrises to Chris Chelios and Brian Leetch while in his prime and won a Norris over Scott Stevens by 1 point.

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What about an argument for Lids over Shore? Can that be made?
For me (only a gut feeling), he could be the easiest to bum out of thew top4
Such an argument would put an emphasis on playoff performance.

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11-25-2012, 06:07 PM
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He was not named the best defenseman in the NHL by either Norris or AS until his 8th season, compared to Lidstrom in his 7th.
I think you misunderstand All-Star voting for defensemen. There is no differentiation between the #1 or the #2 defenseman when voting for an All-Star selection. So even if someone believes Rob Blake to be better than Nicklas Lidstrom, by selecting both Blake and Lidstrom to the All-Star team, they both get a 1st Place vote (leaving, for example, Pronger and Niedermayer both with 2nd Place votes, and Stevens and Bourque both with 3rd Place votes). They're not voting 1-2-3; they're voting 1-1-2-2-3-3.

It is for this same reason that Mike Green led in All-Star votes in 2009 over Chara despite having fewer Norris votes - people were more likely to believe Green to be one of the two best defensemen in the league than they were with Chara, but they were more likely to believe that Chara was the absolute best than they were with Green.

Pretending that Lidstrom was voted the best defenseman by the All-Star vote in 1998 is a complete misuse of the vote itself. Was he voted the most likely defenseman to be either the #1 or the #2 best defenseman in the league? Yes. But he was not voted the #1.

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