HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

HeroStats - Grabovski, #1 or #2 C.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-25-2012, 04:36 PM
  #76
bunjay
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,330
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
3 pages discussing if Grabo is a #1C on a contender or a #2C on a Cup team.

Unbelievable.

When the answer is a resounding, No. He has never won at any level in the NHL. Just how do some come to a conclusion it is yes when you look at the standard of #2C's that have won the cup is a mystery.

The fact he is a #2C on a perennial non playoff team and a mediocre one at that, just tells you all you need to know.

1. First off let this guy prove he can be part of a winning team before saying he is a 'great' <chuckle> #2C on Cup contender, I won't even say Cup winner because we know this is not true.
Phaneuf hasn't proven he can be part of a winning team. What does 'prove you can be part of a winning team' even mean? Has Kessel proven he can be part of a winning team because he played for a team when they pulled a playoff choke-job of historic proportions? Everybody who plays for the leafs is on a perennial non-playoff team.

Quote:
2. If the guy is so great, why do all his backers always say he needs better wingers, or a better supporting cast? Great players make players around them better, but Grabo is not a particular strong playmaker nor does he bring a lot of "Bergeron, Richards intangibles to a team".
Nobody says that.

Grabovski gave both his wingers career years, they probably sent him thank-you cards for their last contracts.

bunjay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 04:49 PM
  #77
Interactif
Registered User
 
Interactif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,185
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
Phaneuf hasn't proven he can be part of a winning team. What does 'prove you can be part of a winning team' even mean? Has Kessel proven he can be part of a winning team because he played for a team when they pulled a playoff choke-job of historic proportions? Everybody who plays for the leafs is on a perennial non-playoff team.



Nobody says that.

Grabovski gave both his wingers career years, they probably sent him thank-you cards for their last contracts.
Mac just got a chance to play, Kule and the rest of the line had career years mostly due to sneaking up to the league, they didn't last year. Further I don't see how a Center with a meager high of 29 assists helped out his wingers that season? If anything Grabo benefitted from his linemates just as much.

Here's the bottom line #2C's are just as important as #1C's on teams. The fact is having this #2C on the roster has not gotten the Leafs out of the basement of the league should tell most Leafs fans all they need to know.

Crosby, Toews, Bergeron/Krejci and Kopitar could not win the Cup themselves. This is how important the #2C position is.

Grabo has never demonstrated anything that contributes to the win column as some of the better #2C's have. If you want to cite he is a 25-29 goal scorer, that tries hard and takes a licking, I won't argue this. But what exactly in this that makes him so special to his fans?

Interactif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 04:55 PM
  #78
ULF_55
Global Moderator
 
ULF_55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Mountain Standard Ti
Posts: 55,785
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Mac just got a chance to play, Kule and the rest of the line had career years mostly due to sneaking up to the league, they didn't last year. Further I don't see how a Center with a meager high of 29 assists helped out his wingers that season? If anything Grabo benefitted from his linemates just as much.

Here's the bottom line #2C's are just as important as #1C's on teams. The fact is having this #2C on the roster has not gotten the Leafs out of the basement of the league should tell most Leafs fans all they need to know.

Crosby, Toews, Bergeron/Krejci and Kopitar could not win the Cup themselves. This is how important the #2C position is.

Grabo has never demonstrated anything that contributes to the win column as some of the better #2C's have. If you want to cite he is a 25-29 goal scorer, that tries hard and takes a licking, I won't argue this. But what exactly in this that makes him so special to his fans?
He's fine on the Leafs as the #2 center, same way Kessel is fine as a #1 winger and Phaneuf is a #1 defender on a bottom 5 team.

Your #1 guys are held more responsible than your secondary players.

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA3LN_8hjM8.

Vaive and Ludzik on collapse, and Phaneuf.
ULF_55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 06:13 PM
  #79
charliolemieux
rsTmf
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,569
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
3 pages discussing if Grabo is a #1C on a contender or a #2C on a Cup team.

Unbelievable.
Unbelievable that that is the impression you got from the previous 3 pages.

Did we read the same thread?



Quote:
The fact he is a #2C on a perennial non playoff team and a mediocre one at that, just tells you all you need to know.
He is the best player on that 2nd line. He is by a wide margin the best center on the team.

Quote:
1. First off let this guy prove he can be part of a winning team before saying he is a 'great' <chuckle> #2C on Cup contender, I won't even say Cup winner because we know this is not true.
I think the majority here have said he is good. HE would be a great #3c on a champion. Without a doubt.

Quote:
2. If the guy is so great, why do all his backers always say he needs better wingers, or a better supporting cast? Great players make players around them better, but Grabo is not a particular strong playmaker nor does he bring a lot of "Bergeron, Richards intangibles to a team".
IF Kulemin had buried his chances last year grabo would have been close to 70pts.

Quote:
He is what he is, a default best C on a team with little strength up the middle, only 4 points the better of the 2nd highest point getting C on the team last year with a lot more fanfare and less intangibles ie. Faceoff inabilty just to name one thing. He rarely plays consistently, often dissapears when the games are important.
Just what games are you watching? He is our best player v. Boston by far.

Quote:
In short, he is the poster boy of this losing era. I will say it again, and it's sounding like a broken record, when the Leafs get a better top 6, one where players have better intangibles. The almost 29 year old will be gone, and mark these words, the Leafs will improve in the standings.
YOu might be right. If the Leafs get 2 better centers Grabo's salary is too high to be on the 3rd line.


Quote:
The fact is The Leafs will improve in the standings when the Grabo era is over.
The fact is I will retire when I win next weeks Lotto max.

Is there something wrong with these facts?

charliolemieux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 06:23 PM
  #80
JKsilverstick*
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 884
vCash: 500
The problem with Interactif is that he believes that to be a good #2 center, you need to be a #1 center. And that #3/4 centers on cup contenders are better than all #2 centers on bad teams.

JKsilverstick* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 06:47 PM
  #81
4evaBlue
Registered User
 
4evaBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Stallone View Post
They have similar skillsets, but they utilize them very differently on the ice.
They both speed down along the boards while carrying the puck, using their speed to generate chances. Neither really stays in the tough areas (along the boards, in front of the net) for longer than it's required to release a shot. Speedy perimeter snipers, one of them just happens to play center, the other is a winger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Stallone View Post
That's a pretty massive generalization which isn't even true in many cases. I already explained how it could potentially result in a boost in production and you just keep repeating the same point about top six/bottom six. It's not some kind of axiom that good offensive players are always bad defensively, and all bottom six players are good defensively. Many of the league leaders in Rel. Corsi are both bottom and top-six players on good puck possession teams like the Canucks and Bruins.
Yes, there are some good two way scoring lines, but they're not the norm around the league. The Sedin sisters, for instance, will not be playing in a shutdown role of any kind. It's much more common to have dedicated checking lines, whose main responsibility is not offense, but stifling the opponent's top lines. Some coaches do not bother with shutdown lines (Wilson), and are content to use their big guns vs opponent's big guns (or whoever the opposing coach matches up against them).

Point is, Grabo hasn't been matched up against top lines, or shutdown lines much in the past. Yes, yes, I know about those 4 games in January, when Wilson used the Grabo line against the Pens and the Isles, there's no need to cite those examples. As a matter of fact, Grabo probably faces optimal opponents on most nights (2nd line, and 2nd pairing).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Stallone View Post
So what you're saying is that you'd be happier if Grabo scored two goals in one of our games against the Bruins, rather than four goals in six..?
I would absolutely prefer to see a Grabo who is able to take over games (January stretch, the two goal Bruins game), than have him score 1 goal on one shot for 4 games. Sure, he scored a goal, but he was virtually invisible for the rest of the game.

He's good when he's hot, and next to useless when he's not. If he could either close the gap between those two states, or bring something else to the table while he's slumping, I wouldn't have so many objectives to keeping him as our #2C. It's one thing to be snakebitten (still generating lots of chances, but getting "unlucky"), but he becomes virtually invisible on the ice, hardly creating any offensive chances, or making a defensive impact.

When Kessel went through his infamous slump, he tried to force plays that weren't there in order to break the "curse". His average shots actually increased during that stretch. Grabo goes from a 3 shots/game guy to a 1.5 shots/game guy when he slumps. He had 8 games w/ 0 shots on net, and 20 games w/ 1 shot on net. That's over 1/3rd of a season right there. And he didn't even have to face tough defensive matchups most of the time.

4evaBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 08:47 PM
  #82
4evaBlue
Registered User
 
4evaBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
My contention was with you saying "They aren't any better than the numbers with Bozak" as if it were fact, yet providing no evidence to support that. The burden of proof should be on those who spout imaginary statistics as if they're fact.
I do spend some time data mining, but to go through players' icetimes game by game, and accumulate the points scored with each linemate would be a ridiculous amount of work to prove something that should be pretty obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
So you believe that puck possession is proportional to shots on net, and so is scoring chances generated? Interesting. You must have loved all the "scoring chances" the likes of Jason Blake generated, not to mention his ridiculous puck possession skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
I was stopping you before you made the argument. In your opinion, is Grabo to fault for Kulemin's down season? Or did you not notice that Kulemin was the recipient of many stellar scoring chances that he couldn't bury? Simple questions.
Combination of many factors, including:
  • An abnormally high shooting % two seasons ago, which he wasn't going to be able to sustain.
  • His head not being in the game to start the season because of the loss of his friends. Noone really knows how much it affected his play on the ice, but it definitely had some effect.
  • Missing on some chances he should have scored on, that you seem to think is the main reason for the decline in his production.
  • Having to cover more and more for Grabo defensively, as Grabo started taking more chances offensively in an attempt to revive his flat-lined offense.
  • Pressure on himself to get back to his career season's production pace.

And I'm not going to ask for proof of those many stellar scoring chances he missed on, because I realize how tedious it would be to go through a season's worth of games to compile a collection of 5 YouTube flicks. I agree that he could have done better on finishing some of those chances, but even if he did, his production still would have taken a dive from two seasons ago. The line simply wasn't generating enough scoring chances, and were invisible on a lot of nights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
So you're just going to look at WHEN he got his point totals as opposed to how his offense stacks up against other 2nd liners over a full season? This is the ultimate cherry-pick. Almost every player goes through ups and downs through the course of a season.
Very few players go from zeroes to heroes back to zeroes in a stretch of a season. Players go through slumps all the time, but if we start classifying 2-3 month stretches as slumps, we could make a lot of the players in the league look better than they are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
Had you actually read my post, you would have noticed I never used the word elite to describe Grabo. I never even said he was a #1 calibre center. He may be OUR best choice, considering our depth chart up the middle. I don't think anyone's confusing Bozak as a #1C in this league, so why does putting Grabo up there all of a sudden deem him a #1C? It's just where he slots into our line-up. Grabo is a #2C compared to his peers and has produced like one for two years now.

People who put words in other peoples' mouths do so to twist the argument in their favour when there's nothing left to factually argue.
I've stated why I think Bozak is a better choice to center the Kessel line, let's hear why you think Grabo would be the better choice. What could he bring to the line that Bozak doesn't? Do you think what he could potentially bring to the line is what the line actually needs? Can you see Grabo being the first man back defensively on a regular basis to cover for Lupul/Kessel?

4evaBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 08:56 PM
  #83
4evaBlue
Registered User
 
4evaBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
0.4 PPG Grabovski? When, exactly?

Let's cut the last season into four quarters: 20 games, 21 games, 21 games, 20 games. This way of looking at it avoids you cherry picking cold streaks.

Q1: .56 ppg
Q2: .77 ppg
Q3: .81 ppg
Q4: .61 ppg

Peaks and valleys. You like to look at the valleys and small samples to make inferences. Rational people like to look at the larger samples.

So much hyperbole I could explode.
Take out his only hot stretch of the season, and you'll see. Not sure what's so rational about looking at arbitrary 20-21 game splits that cut his hot and cold streaks smooth out the differences, vs following the 2-3 month long peaks and valleys.

P.S: Your sample size is smaller btw


Last edited by 4evaBlue: 11-25-2012 at 09:01 PM.
4evaBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 09:00 PM
  #84
HockeyThoughts
Delivering The Truth
 
HockeyThoughts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,347
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
Phaneuf hasn't proven he can be part of a winning team. What does 'prove you can be part of a winning team' even mean? Has Kessel proven he can be part of a winning team because he played for a team when they pulled a playoff choke-job of historic proportions? Everybody who plays for the leafs is on a perennial non-playoff team.



Nobody says that.

Grabovski gave both his wingers career years, they probably sent him thank-you cards for their last contracts.
Phil Kessel wasn't part of the Boston Bruins squad when they blew the 3-0 series lead to the Flyers in 09/10, he was in his first season as a Maple Leaf during that campaign.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Take out his only hot stretch of the season, and you'll see.
Over an 82gp season, there is bound to be hot streaks and cold streaks for every player no matter how consistent they may be. Why would we exclude his hot stretch? Perhaps we should exclude his cold stretch instead

HockeyThoughts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 09:04 PM
  #85
MeowLeafs
LM is awesome
 
MeowLeafs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baconland
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,869
vCash: 500
Grabovski is in no way a #1C.

MeowLeafs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 09:18 PM
  #86
Interactif
Registered User
 
Interactif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,185
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
He is the best player on that 2nd line. He is by a wide margin the best center on the team.
He was 4 points better than Bozak last year to a guy in his 2nd full NHL season, wide margin?

Quote:
I think the majority here have said he is good. HE would be a great #3c on a champion. Without a doubt.
I have plenty doubt, given Staal, Boland, Kelly, and Stoll bring much more grit, leadership, intangibles, and the ability to win faceoffs to a Cup winning team. When was the last time Grabo was entrusted to win a key faceoff?

Quote:
IF Kulemin had buried his chances last year grabo would have been close to 70pts.
Really? He buried 30 the season before and you know how many points Grabo got that season? 58. A career high.

Quote:
Just what games are you watching? He is our best player v. Boston by far.
Leafs were awful last season against the Bruins, including Grabo. But if you insist he was the best of an awful lot. Then have at it.

Quote:
YOu might be right. If the Leafs get 2 better centers Grabo's salary is too high to be on the 3rd line.
Well we agree on one thing!

Quote:
The fact is I will retire when I win next weeks Lotto max.

Is there something wrong with these facts?
I'll look you up when it happens. Leafs will have a better record without the Energizer bunny when we have centers that can score 50 points a season but bring a lot more intangibles to the team. BTW I don't mean being able to take a lickin but keeps on tickin. That's not a hockey intangible.

Interactif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 09:24 PM
  #87
4evaBlue
Registered User
 
4evaBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funk Volume View Post
So, Stamkos isn't a desirable #1 centre?



Obviously an extreme example cuz Grabo gets as many points a year that Stammer gets goals (close anyway), but still. It shouldn't be about playing style. It should be production and chemistry.

It's a well known fact we have only one first line player on our team, and that is Kessel. Lupul PRODUCED like a first liner because of his CHEMISTRY with Kessel. Bozak is a third liner, but produces like a top 6 forward because of his chemistry with Kessel.

Just like we only have one top pairing defenseman, Phaneuf. But Gunnarsson produces(not points wise but plays like) a top pairing guy because of his chemistry with Dion.


Line combos come down to production and chemistry. If we stuck Grabo in between Kessel and Lupul(something I'm against because I believe in spreading out your scoring), it would be up to the three of them to make it work.
How well do you think Stamkos would have done with say Dustin Brown, or Skinner on his line instead of St. Louis. Great players in their own right, but probably not the ideal replacement for St. Louis.

The biggest determining factor in developing chemistry is the roles players play, and how well they fulfill those roles. A sniper-sniper-sniper line isn't giong to work, and neither will a PFW-PFW-PFW. It's not as black and white as that, of course, as the players utilize skillsets from all the roles to some extent. That extent is what makes many great players so great. Kessel's playmaking, Getzlaf/E. Staal's size/grit, etc. Heck, it even applies to puckhandling goalies, as it can give the team an extra defender in many situations. Gunnarsson, to a much lesser extent, falls into this category as well. He is able to take an offensive role, but can play the stay at home defensemen to complement Phaneuf's game, as well.

Competent playmaking centers are hard to find, competent playmaking wingers are even harder, and without a playmaker, your line's going nowhere fast.

4evaBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 09:31 PM
  #88
The Blue Devil
Registered User
 
The Blue Devil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,531
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
He was 4 points better than Bozak last year to a guy in his 2nd full NHL season, wide margin?


I have plenty doubt, given Staal, Boland, Kelly, and Stoll bring much more grit, leadership, intangibles, and the ability to win faceoffs to a Cup winning team. When was the last time Grabo was entrusted to win a key faceoff?



Really? He buried 30 the season before and you know how many points Grabo got that season? 58. A career high.



Leafs were awful last season against the Bruins, including Grabo. But if you insist he was the best of an awful lot. Then have at it.



Well we agree on one thing!



I'll look you up when it happens. Leafs will have a better record without the Energizer bunny when we have centers that can score 50 points a season but bring a lot more intangibles to the team. BTW I don't mean being able to take a lickin but keeps on tickin. That's not a hockey intangible.
Bozak's main wingers combined for 149 points, Grabo's main wingers combined for 71 points. Kessel alone had more points then Grabo's wingers combined! The fact that Bozak could only muster up 47 points with his wingers makes him look even worse.

2nd bolded point: Really? 4 goals in 6gp isn't good? The ****? Grabo was the only stand-out player in the Boston games. Your hate has made you delusional!

The Blue Devil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 09:37 PM
  #89
4evaBlue
Registered User
 
4evaBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
Over an 82gp season, there is bound to be hot streaks and cold streaks for every player no matter how consistent they may be. Why would we exclude his hot stretch? Perhaps we should exclude his cold stretch instead
Separating a player's hot streaks and cold streaks gives you more information about a player's tendencies than using some arbitrary X game splits. In this case, the start of the season (bad), hot streak (very good), end of the season (bad).

4evaBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 09:42 PM
  #90
charliolemieux
rsTmf
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,569
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
He was 4 points better than Bozak last year to a guy in his 2nd full NHL season, wide margin?
Bozak played with 2 PPG players last year. A pylon could have got 45pts.


Quote:
I have plenty doubt, given Staal, Boland, Kelly, and Stoll bring much more grit, leadership, intangibles, and the ability to win faceoffs to a Cup winning team. When was the last time Grabo was entrusted to win a key faceoff?
Grabo was over 51% last year.
Other than Staal who has suddenly moved up to a #1 spot, grabo has more offensive skill than anyone you mentioned.


Quote:
Really? He buried 30 the season before and you know how many points Grabo got that season? 58. A career high.
Right, and if he had buried 10-20 more of the chances Grabo set him up for last year Grabo would have been near 70pts.



Quote:
Leafs were awful last season against the Bruins, including Grabo. But if you insist he was the best of an awful lot. Then have at it.
Anyone else have a 2 goal game against the Bruins in the last 2 years.



Quote:
I'll look you up when it happens. Leafs will have a better record without the Energizer bunny when we have centers that can score 50 points a season but bring a lot more intangibles to the team. BTW I don't mean being able to take a lickin but keeps on tickin. That's not a hockey intangible.
To get 2 better centers than Grabo they are going to have to score more than 50pts and bring intangibles.

Grabo did great with his wingers having carreer years. So what if you improve the wingers?

charliolemieux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 09:53 PM
  #91
4evaBlue
Registered User
 
4evaBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Blue Devil View Post
Bozak's main wingers combined for 149 points, Grabo's main wingers combined for 71 points. Kessel alone had more points then Grabo's wingers combined! The fact that Bozak could only muster up 47 points with his wingers makes him look even worse.
Bozak's primary role on that line was not to provide offense, Grabo's was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Blue Devil View Post
2nd bolded point: Really? 4 goals in 6gp isn't good? The ****? Grabo was the only stand-out player in the Boston games. Your hate has made you delusional!
4 goals in 6 games is good. It almost implies a dominating presence against the Bruins. 9 shots in 6 games from a sniper doesn't seem to match that impression. I'm glad almost half of his shots found the back of the net, but that hardly means he played great games.

4evaBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 10:02 PM
  #92
Duke Silver
Truce?
 
Duke Silver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: St. John's, NL
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,963
vCash: 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
I do spend some time data mining, but to go through players' icetimes game by game, and accumulate the points scored with each linemate would be a ridiculous amount of work to prove something that should be pretty obvious.
Then don't phrase what you're saying as if it's fact, if you're not going to prove it.

Quote:
So you believe that puck possession is proportional to shots on net, and so is scoring chances generated? Interesting. You must have loved all the "scoring chances" the likes of Jason Blake generated, not to mention his ridiculous puck possession skills.
Totally missed the point. Surprising.

Despite playing against very tough competition, Grabovski's line dominated in terms of puck possession, which obviously translates into shots.

As for the Blake statement, hyperbole from you once again. This all feels so desperate.

Quote:
Combination of many factors, including:
[*]Having to cover more and more for Grabo defensively, as Grabo started taking more chances offensively in an attempt to revive his flat-lined offense.
Absolute fabrication.

Quote:
Very few players go from zeroes to heroes back to zeroes in a stretch of a season. Players go through slumps all the time, but if we start classifying 2-3 month stretches as slumps, we could make a lot of the players in the league look better than they are.
Quote:
I've stated why I think Bozak is a better choice to center the Kessel line, let's hear why you think Grabo would be the better choice. What could he bring to the line that Bozak doesn't? Do you think what he could potentially bring to the line is what the line actually needs? Can you see Grabo being the first man back defensively on a regular basis to cover for Lupul/Kessel?
This entire thread is about evaluating Grabovski as a #1C/#2C compared to his peers, not determining a fit with Kessel and Lupul.

However, to address your questions, you firstly severely underrate Grabovski's defensive abilities. He was routinely a hard back-checker last season and I don't think he'd have any issue filling Bozak's role defensively. Additionally, if Grabo's on the top line their puck possession time likely goes even higher which means the puck will be in the offensive zone longer. I do not need to explain the defensive component of keeping the puck in the offensive zone, do I? (And no, before you go off on another overexaggerative tangent, I'm not saying "the puck will be in the other zone 100% of the time that line is on the ice). As said by others, Grabovski's speed backs off defenders and opens up time for his linemates. For example, imagine Grabovski coming in hot over the line, backing off the defenders, and making a drop-pass to Kessel as he follows Grabo into the zone. Kessel has all the time in the world to step in over the line and make a play.

I've seen people say "we don't have enough sample size to say it would work". Well, I counter with "we don't have enough sample size to say it wouldn't.

I feel Bozak is best suited for a third-line center role where he can focus on shutting down scoring lines instead of being relied upon as an offensive catalyst.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Take out his only hot stretch of the season, and you'll see. Not sure what's so rational about looking at arbitrary 20-21 game splits that cut his hot and cold streaks smooth out the differences, vs following the 2-3 month long peaks and valleys.

P.S: Your sample size is smaller btw
"Take out his best stretch of play from the season and you'll see how bad he was."

By standardizing the sample sizes to smooth out the differences, you're avoiding biased judgments, which you are patently guilty of doing.

Exactly what portion of time were you referring to with your 0.4ppg statement? Find me one section of 20+ games from last season where Grabovski performed at 0.4ppg or less. You won't find one.

I went through this song and dance with you last season when you couldn't grasp the concept of accounting for statistical outliers when showing you that Reimer was a better goaltender than your best friend forever Gustavsson, so I don't have much hope in this going anywhere. Best I not waste any more time on it.

Duke Silver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 10:07 PM
  #93
Interactif
Registered User
 
Interactif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,185
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Blue Devil View Post
Bozak's main wingers combined for 149 points, Grabo's main wingers combined for 71 points. Kessel alone had more points then Grabo's wingers combined! The fact that Bozak could only muster up 47 points with his wingers makes him look even worse.

2nd bolded point: Really? 4 goals in 6gp isn't good? The ****? Grabo was the only stand-out player in the Boston games. Your hate has made you delusional!
Lupul and Kessel had career years with Bozak, infact Bozak had a career year. So either you give Kessel credit for making Bozak, or Bozak credit for actually contributing to his wingers success.

As for Grabo's supposed success against the Bruins last year, they were meaningless goals except for one game when the Leafs were actually it it. He scored a meaningless goal in the season opener late in the 3rd when the bruins were home and cooled out with a 6-1 in the lead. Remember that humilation?

Regardless when you are outscored 35-10 on the season, saying you are the best player with a collective pathetic effort against the Bruins is not something to be proud of. Grabo was -3 in the 6 games.

Interactif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 11:05 PM
  #94
Leafs For Life*
Nothing
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 6,636
vCash: 500
Can we agree on him being an average 2nd line center? Or are there to much homer glasses selling for cheap.

Leafs For Life* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 11:16 PM
  #95
Darcy Tucker
Registered User
 
Darcy Tucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vaughan, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,404
vCash: 500
hes not even an average 2nd line center. hes a really good 2nd line center that can be dominant. Stack up every 2nd line center in a post with their stats and ull see that we undervalue Grabo. Interactif and 4eva just have this insane obsession with trying to prove hes not a good player. that argument is just not logical.

Darcy Tucker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 11:22 PM
  #96
Interactif
Registered User
 
Interactif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,185
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Bozak played with 2 PPG players last year. A pylon could have got 45pts.
But Connolly, Lombardi, Steckel, Grabo never did better playing with Kessel and Lupul. Maybe they should have tried a Pylon.

Quote:
Grabo was over 51% last year.
Other than Staal who has suddenly moved up to a #1 spot, grabo has more offensive skill than anyone you mentioned.
Yet, He was not facing the other team's best faceoff men, if he was good at faceoffs you would think Randy or Ron would have tried him in important faceoff situations? Connolly, Bozak, and Steckel were choices before Grabs.

Quote:
Right, and if he had buried 10-20 more of the chances Grabo set him up for last year Grabo would have been near 70pts.
I love this, like I can remember had Kessel buried a few more chances Bozie set him up for, he would be a 60 pt. center last year and Kessel would have 90 points.


Quote:
Anyone else have a 2 goal game against the Bruins in the last 2 years.
Phil Kessel, that's who.

Interactif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 11:26 PM
  #97
Interactif
Registered User
 
Interactif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,185
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darcy Tucker View Post
Interactif and 4eva just have this insane obsession with trying to prove hes not a good player.
Don't have to, other than this board, the rest of the league knows he is a very mediocre to sporadically good center when he is on one of his highs, problem is he hits those 1 goal in 15 game streaks far too frequently.

Interactif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 11:46 PM
  #98
4evaBlue
Registered User
 
4evaBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
Then don't phrase what you're saying as if it's fact, if you're not going to prove it.
I'll tell you what. I'll take the time to do the data gathering to prove or disprove it if you back up all your claims with facts (all the glorious chances Kulemin's missed, Grabo's super tough matchups, examples of Grabo's "routine hard back-checks").

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
Totally missed the point. Surprising.

Despite playing against very tough competition, Grabovski's line dominated in terms of puck possession, which obviously translates into shots.

As for the Blake statement, hyperbole from you once again. This all feels so desperate.
It's merely an illustration of how folly using shots on net as an indication of puck possession and scoring chances is. The competition Grabo faced wasn't all that great, either. Feel free to prove your claim with icetimes against those supposed tough matchups Grabo's faced, and not by using some flawed statistics you managed to Google.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
Absolute fabrication.
Of course you'd say that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
This entire thread is about evaluating Grabovski as a #1C/#2C compared to his peers, not determining a fit with Kessel and Lupul.
Yes, and those opinions are based on looking at their offensive production in vacuum, completely ignoring the roles players play, and defensive matchups they face while achieving their point totals. If a center is unable to play effectively between a PFW and a sniper winger, they'll have a tough time replacing most centers around the league.

Yes, if Grabo could reprorduce his 59 point career year, while facing tougher defensive matchups, he could potentially quality as a welfare #1C.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
However, to address your questions, you firstly severely underrate Grabovski's defensive abilities. He was routinely a hard back-checker last season and I don't think he'd have any issue filling Bozak's role defensively.
I think you overrate Grabo's defensive abilties. Agree to disagree. Do you remember how the Grabo line did defensively after Kulemin was replaced by Frattin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
Additionally, if Grabo's on the top line their puck possession time likely goes even higher which means the puck will be in the offensive zone longer. I do not need to explain the defensive component of keeping the puck in the offensive zone, do I? (And no, before you go off on another overexaggerative tangent, I'm not saying "the puck will be in the other zone 100% of the time that line is on the ice).
Here we go with the corsi crap again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
As said by others, Grabovski's speed backs off defenders and opens up time for his linemates. For example, imagine Grabovski coming in hot over the line, backing off the defenders, and making a drop-pass to Kessel as he follows Grabo into the zone. Kessel has all the time in the world to step in over the line and make a play.
Let's say the puck is turned over while Grabo crosses the blue line, who's preventing the odd man rush the other way? Lupul? Kessel is more than capable of carrying the puck in over the blue line with speed and backing up the defenders. Why do we need a lite version of him on the line to do that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
I've seen people say "we don't have enough sample size to say it would work". Well, I counter with "we don't have enough sample size to say it wouldn't.
And I counter with "Don't try to fix what isn't broken".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
I feel Bozak is best suited for a third-line center role where he can focus on shutting down scoring lines instead of being relied upon as an offensive catalyst.
That's the thing. The first line isn't relying on him to be an offensive catalyst. I agree that Bozak should ideally be used on the 3rd line, where he could use his offensive skills a lot more effectively. Putting Grabo between Kessel and Lupul to be an offensive catalyst would, IMO, open up huge defensive lapses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
"Take out his best stretch of play from the season and you'll see how bad he was."

By standardizing the sample sizes to smooth out the differences, you're avoiding biased judgments, which you are patently guilty of doing.
It's not so much take out, but examine the streaks separately. I gave him props for his awesome hot streak. If he could play half as well for the rest of the season, he'd actually earn his paycheck.

So observing trends is now considered biased? You don't believe Grabo's a notoriously slow starter? You should notify the broadcasters that all this hot and cold streaks nonsense is meaningless, and they should just use Q1, and Q2 averages. Even better, use the before and after ASG splits, since that removes even more variance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
Exactly what portion of time were you referring to with your 0.4ppg statement? Find me one section of 20+ games from last season where Grabovski performed at 0.4ppg or less. You won't find one.
I was going off memory from months old thread where I said that outside of Grabo's hot January, and first couple of weeks of February, Colborne could have duplicated what Grabo brought to the table. It was supposed to say 40 point pace, or 0.5 PPG (ie: Colborne's NHL production from few games he played on the 3rd line). That'll teach me to not double check my figures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
I went through this song and dance with you last season when you couldn't grasp the concept of accounting for statistical outliers when showing you that Reimer was a better goaltender than your best friend forever Gustavsson, so I don't have much hope in this going anywhere. Best I not waste any more time on it.
And look how wrong you've proven me. Reimer looked so great in net all season long. For the record, I believe both goalies will have better seasons next go around, Reimer with a better coach/defensive system, and Gus with a better coach/system/team.

4evaBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-25-2012, 11:58 PM
  #99
4evaBlue
Registered User
 
4evaBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darcy Tucker View Post
hes not even an average 2nd line center. hes a really good 2nd line center that can be dominant. Stack up every 2nd line center in a post with their stats and ull see that we undervalue Grabo. Interactif and 4eva just have this insane obsession with trying to prove hes not a good player. that argument is just not logical.
His production is decent for a 2nd liner (way too streaky for my liking), but he doesn't bring anything else to the table that some of the slightly lower producing #2Cs may. I'd love to upgrade Grabo with a center with more intangibles, but he'll do until we find someone better.

4evaBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2012, 10:56 AM
  #100
Kingstonian84*
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,411
vCash: 500
His production is decent for a 2nd liner (way too streaky for my liking), but he doesn't bring anything else to the table that some of the slightly lower producing #2Cs may. I'd love to upgrade Grabo with a center with more intangibles, but he'll do until we find someone better.

- Pretty much this! Grabo brings elite speed and gets 50-55 points at the end of day but brings little else to the table. Right now he's our best fit as a 2nd line centre because really nobody in the system can out-do him, for now he's acceptable but if Burke can find an upgrade then I think that would be great as well.

Kingstonian84* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:53 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.