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Norris Trophy Pilfering '98 vs '11

View Poll Results: Who was robbed more?
Lidstrom in '98 47 68.12%
Weber in '11 22 31.88%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-23-2012, 04:40 PM
  #176
TheDevilMadeMe
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Let's try to keep on topic. This is not the thread to compare Bourque vs. Lidstrom vs. Harvey, nor is it the thread to talk about the size of the talent pool in the 1960s.

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11-23-2012, 04:42 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Let's try to keep on topic. This is not the thread to compare Bourque vs. Lidstrom vs. Harvey, nor is it the thread to talk about the size of the talent pool in the 1960s.
I this thread has pretty much run its course.

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11-23-2012, 05:12 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Let's try to keep on topic. This is not the thread to compare Bourque vs. Lidstrom vs. Harvey, nor is it the thread to talk about the size of the talent pool in the 1960s.
At this point we might want to consider a catch-all thread to dump those perpetually rehashed arguments, which have a virus-like role on this board.

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11-23-2012, 06:40 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
I this thread has pretty much run its course.
Yeah, at this point it's impossible to separate out all the Bourque and Harvey posts. At this point, this thread is on life support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
At this point we might want to consider a catch-all thread to dump those perpetually rehashed arguments, which have a virus-like role on this board.
Agreed. That thread is here now: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1297143

Please keep all talk about Lidstrom's all-time ranking in that thread. This is not optional.

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Old
11-23-2012, 08:55 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by jack mullet View Post
couldn't have said it better myself. if lidstrom was "robbed" in 98, it was more than made up for with several norris's afterwards. Weber has yet to win one, even though he is constantly one of the top D-men in the game. My vote goes to Weber getting "robbed". how Lidstrom was could win the Norris with a -2 rating on a team that was +20 that year, and had the 6th best record in the NHL, is a head scratcher.
I don't know what Nashville's +/- was, but I don't think Lidstrom's -2 argument holds much water when Weber had a pretty mediocre +7.

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11-24-2012, 03:00 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
So he's biased because he disagrees with you?
No he's biased because every thread with Lidstrom is him down playing him, including starting a thread about Weber being robbed by Lidstrom, the 7 time norris trophy winner that outscored him by a large margin.

Its fine if thats what you believe and he can say he doesnt dislike Lidstrom, but when I make a pretty clear post with lots of good points in it and he doesnt acknowledge any of them I'm leaning towards bias there. He cant make an argument against them so he ignores points for Lidstrom in this argument and picks which battles he wants to fight.

He had Suter playing beside him who was arguably better defensively then Weber and played just as many minutes and he had a goalie that finished 4th in MVP voting, obviously the preds relied a lot on Rinne that year to do what they did. Leads me to believe that Weber without those 2 wouldnt be in the norris talk as much

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11-25-2012, 02:14 PM
  #182
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Last week I looked at the personal GAAs for the top defensemen in 1998. The data suggested that Lidstrom probably deserved the Norris. Now I want to look at 2011.

Even strength GAA
Defenseman TGA PPGA ESGA ESTOI ES GAA
Chara 81 28 53 1578 2.02
Yandle 71 10 61 1603 2.28
Weber 80 16 64 1604 2.39
Visnovsky 76 3 73 1596 2.74
Lidstrom 98 27 71 1373 3.1


PK GAA
defenseman TGA PPGA PKTOI PK GAA
Visnovsky 76 3 35 5.14
Weber 80 16 173 5.55
Chara 81 28 228 7.37
Lidstrom 98 27 219 7.4
Yandle 71 10 59 10.17

Weber was 23% better at ES and 25% better on the PK. After taking their respective teams into account, I'm sure that a lot of the difference in GAA can be explained - but then we'd have to do the same for Lidstrom's offensive advantage too. What do others takeaway from this data?


Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 11-25-2012 at 02:20 PM.
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11-25-2012, 03:42 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Vishnevsky also had less defensive responsibilities than his partner at even strength, while Lidstrom had more defensive responsibilities than his partner, Brian Rafalski.
*Vishnevsky left Anaheim in 2006; this is Visnovsky


Lidstrom didn't play that much at even-strength relative to other defensemen though.

Visnovsky: 19:42 ES (6th), 4:08 PP, 0:26 SH
Lidstrom: 16:44 ES (105th), 4:03 PP, 2:40 SH

Visnovsky had less defensive responsibilities because he was tasked with creating offense for Anaheim as a puck-controlling defenseman (hence 37 points at ES to Lidstrom's 22 ES points).

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11-25-2012, 03:50 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
*Vishnevsky left Anaheim in 2006; this is Visnovsky
Merian Webster defines a typo as "an error (as of spelling) in typed or typeset material."

(someone else sent me a PM telling me I spelled his name wrong too)

Quote:
Lidstrom didn't play that much at even-strength relative to other defensemen though.

Visnovsky: 19:42 ES (6th), 4:08 PP, 0:26 SH
Lidstrom: 16:44 ES (105th), 4:03 PP, 2:40 SH

Visnovsky had less defensive responsibilities because he was tasked with creating offense for Anaheim as a puck-controlling defenseman (hence 37 points at ES to Lidstrom's 22 ES points).
I see this as more proof that Lidstrom was clearly superior, to be honest. Those SH minutes are much tougher than even strength minutes. So Lidstrom was superior on the PP to Visnovsky (their gap was only 7 points overall, against 15 at ES), and he actually killed penalties. Vishnovsky scored more at even strength as he was allowed to think offense-first. Lidstrom thought defense-first at even strength, playing next to Rafalski.

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11-25-2012, 03:56 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
What do others takeaway from this data?
That Weber will seem a lot better in retrospect. Chara and Lidstrom are a pretty high standard for defensive-defenseman competition.

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11-25-2012, 04:09 PM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Merian Webster defines a typo as "an error (as of spelling) in typed or typeset material."

(someone else sent me a PM telling me I spelled his name wrong too)
I was mostly concerned that you thought he was the same person who played so poorly for your Devils.

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11-25-2012, 04:51 PM
  #187
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I was mostly concerned that you thought he was the same person who played so poorly for your Devils.
Heh, that guy leading the NHL in points by defensemen would be a miracle

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11-25-2012, 08:10 PM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Last week I looked at the personal GAAs for the top defensemen in 1998. The data suggested that Lidstrom probably deserved the Norris. Now I want to look at 2011.

Even strength GAA
Defenseman TGA PPGA ESGA ESTOI ES GAA
Chara 81 28 53 1578 2.02
Yandle 71 10 61 1603 2.28
Weber 80 16 64 1604 2.39
Visnovsky 76 3 73 1596 2.74
Lidstrom 98 27 71 1373 3.1


PK GAA
defenseman TGA PPGA PKTOI PK GAA
Visnovsky 76 3 35 5.14
Weber 80 16 173 5.55
Chara 81 28 228 7.37
Lidstrom 98 27 219 7.4
Yandle 71 10 59 10.17

Weber was 23% better at ES and 25% better on the PK. After taking their respective teams into account, I'm sure that a lot of the difference in GAA can be explained - but then we'd have to do the same for Lidstrom's offensive advantage too. What do others takeaway from this data?
Goaltending stats 2010-11.
Goalie Team W-L-OTL GAA sv%
Thomas BOS 35-11-9 2.00 .938
Rinne NSH 33-22-9 2.12 .930
Emery ANA 7-2-0 2.28 .926
Hiller ANA 26-16-3 2.56 .924
Rask BOS 11-14-2 2.67 .918
MacDonald DET 5-5-3 2.58 .917
Ellis ANA 8-3-1 2.39 .917
Lindback NSH 11-5-2 2.60 .915
Howard DET 37-17-5 2.79 .908
Osgood DET 5-3-2 2.77 .903
McElhinney ANA 6-9-1 3.43 .890
Dekanich NSH 0-0-0 3.60 .880
Pielmeier ANA 0-0-0 7.50 .583

That's every goalie who spent time with one of those teams that year. Howard doesn't look too good statistically in that comparison. And he didn't look good on the ice, either. For reference, Howard's GAA (assuming consistent sv%) would have been approximately the same with Rinne's SA/60, just under 3 with Thomas' SA/60, and just over 3 with Hiller's.

Notably, the Wings gave up over 240 goals. As a team, they were 7th in GAA in 2009-10 and 2011-12. In 2010-11? 23rd. A large part of that was Howard's off year. Lidstrom being on the ice a ton of the time against the best players with Howard coughing up bad goals and making glaring errors is obviously going to hurt Nick's numbers more.

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11-25-2012, 08:24 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by jack mullet View Post
based on what?
Lidstrom outscored Blake by 9 points. Weber got outscored by Lidstrom by 14 points. There's one point

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11-25-2012, 09:01 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Goaltending stats 2010-11.
Goalie Team W-L-OTL GAA sv%
Thomas BOS 35-11-9 2.00 .938
Rinne NSH 33-22-9 2.12 .930
Emery ANA 7-2-0 2.28 .926
Hiller ANA 26-16-3 2.56 .924
Rask BOS 11-14-2 2.67 .918
MacDonald DET 5-5-3 2.58 .917
Ellis ANA 8-3-1 2.39 .917
Lindback NSH 11-5-2 2.60 .915
Howard DET 37-17-5 2.79 .908
Osgood DET 5-3-2 2.77 .903
McElhinney ANA 6-9-1 3.43 .890
Dekanich NSH 0-0-0 3.60 .880
Pielmeier ANA 0-0-0 7.50 .583

That's every goalie who spent time with one of those teams that year. Howard doesn't look too good statistically in that comparison. And he didn't look good on the ice, either. For reference, Howard's GAA (assuming consistent sv%) would have been approximately the same with Rinne's SA/60, just under 3 with Thomas' SA/60, and just over 3 with Hiller's.

Notably, the Wings gave up over 240 goals. As a team, they were 7th in GAA in 2009-10 and 2011-12. In 2010-11? 23rd. A large part of that was Howard's off year. Lidstrom being on the ice a ton of the time against the best players with Howard coughing up bad goals and making glaring errors is obviously going to hurt Nick's numbers more.
That's a good point re: Lidstrom's plus-minus. But shot-based metrics showed similar results. Lidstrom's Corsi rating (plus-minus of shots directed at net per 60 minutes) was 2.65, fourth lowest on the Wings. When Lidstrom was off the ice Detroit's Corsi rating was 9.5.

Lidstrom had previously posted outstanding numbers according to this metric.

Lidstrom's Corsi ratings (off-ice numbers in parentheses)
2008 - 20.0 (15.6)
2009 - 18.1 (13.7)
2010 - 15.5 (4.9)
2011 - 2.6 (9.5)

I'm sure playing with Stuart instead of Rafalski had something to do with it, but Lidstrom came by his negative plus-minus in 2010-11 honestly. Detroit just didn't control the play with him on the ice as they had in previous years.

The comparable Corsi numbers for Chara and Weber in 2010-11 are
Chara: 9.1 (-2.9)
Weber: 2.7 (-4.5)

I would have voted for Chara, not Weber, btw.

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11-25-2012, 10:19 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
That's a good point re: Lidstrom's plus-minus. But shot-based metrics showed similar results. Lidstrom's Corsi rating (plus-minus of shots directed at net per 60 minutes) was 2.65, fourth lowest on the Wings. When Lidstrom was off the ice Detroit's Corsi rating was 9.5.

Lidstrom had previously posted outstanding numbers according to this metric.

Lidstrom's Corsi ratings (off-ice numbers in parentheses)
2008 - 20.0 (15.6)
2009 - 18.1 (13.7)
2010 - 15.5 (4.9)
2011 - 2.6 (9.5)

I'm sure playing with Stuart instead of Rafalski had something to do with it
Don't get me started on Stuart's play that season. Seriously. It was like watching a 5 year-old.

Quote:
but Lidstrom came by his negative plus-minus in 2010-11 honestly. Detroit just didn't control the play with him on the ice as they had in previous years.

The comparable Corsi numbers for Chara and Weber in 2010-11 are
Chara: 9.1 (-2.9)
Weber: 2.7 (-4.5)

I would have voted for Chara, not Weber, btw.
I'm not going to disagree with the idea that Lidstrom wasn't as good in 2011 as he was in his other Norris years. But I think you have forgotten the QoC component of CORSI. Context is important. And Lidstrom had the toughest ES minutes of any defenseman in the league. Weber was near the top also, but behind Lidstrom. Combine that with the fact that Howard was terrible and Stuart was incompetent, and you have Lidstrom needing to serve as a superhero. Which is an accurate description of what happened on the ice.

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11-25-2012, 11:48 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Combine that with the fact that Howard was terrible and Stuart was incompetent, and you have Lidstrom needing to serve as a superhero. Which is an accurate description of what happened on the ice.
You mean he had to try and accomplish what Bourque had to do and DID in Boston for years and years?

Poor, poor Lidstrom, seeing how the other half live for a season or two


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11-26-2012, 12:16 AM
  #193
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No he's biased because every thread with Lidstrom is him down playing him, including starting a thread about Weber being robbed by Lidstrom, the 7 time norris trophy winner that outscored him by a large margin.

Its fine if thats what you believe and he can say he doesnt dislike Lidstrom, but when I make a pretty clear post with lots of good points in it and he doesnt acknowledge any of them I'm leaning towards bias there. He cant make an argument against them so he ignores points for Lidstrom in this argument and picks which battles he wants to fight.

He had Suter playing beside him who was arguably better defensively then Weber and played just as many minutes and he had a goalie that finished 4th in MVP voting, obviously the preds relied a lot on Rinne that year to do what they did. Leads me to believe that Weber without those 2 wouldnt be in the norris talk as much
@TheDevilMadeMe

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11-26-2012, 03:12 PM
  #194
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You mean he had to try and accomplish what Bourque had to do and DID in Boston for years and years?

Poor, poor Lidstrom, seeing how the other half live for a season or two
Bourque had Glen Wesley opposite him for many years. He was better in Boston than Stuart was at any point in his career. Bourque won four Norrises with Wesley, and none after. In 1986-87, with Reed Larson, he beat out an injury-shortened Mark Howe. It's possible that Howe wins the Norris on a full season; Howe had 58 points in 69 games, and was +57; that's 67 points and +66 on a full 80-game year, and he was already a VERY clear 2nd in Norris and AS voting, being named to the first team on 46/54 ballots and receiving 1 first-place Norris vote and 42/54 second place votes.

So none of this "Poor Ray Bourque, never playing with good partners." stuff. Lidstrom in his first 1 1/2 years had end-of-career McCrimmon, end-of-career Howe, and Steve Chiasson. Then Coffey was acquired, and played with Lidstrom until the end of 1995-96. Lidstrom didn't really have a regular everyday partner again until Murphy was acquired later on in 1996-97. That was the status quo until the end of 2000-01 when Murphy retired. Mathieu Dandenault got the job at that point; clearly a stellar partner and top-pairing defenseman. He had the job until the start of 2003-04, when Mathieu Schneider took his job. Schneider had the job for two more seasons before leaving and being replaced by Rafalski, who stayed with Lidstrom except for the one year Lids played with Stuart. White played with Lidstrom this past season.

So Rafalski was the only really significant defenseman that Lidstrom played with. Murphy and Schneider posted solid performances, but both were heavily buoyed by a prime Lidstrom.

And it wasn't as if Bourque was short of talented partners after Wesley left; he played significant time with Don Sweeney in the post-Wesley years; Sweeney was one of the league's top defensive defensemen. Later, Sweeney moved back to the second pair and Bourque had Kyle McLaren - when he was actually a good young all-around defenseman (before he retired at 30). If Bourque played with the "nothing" partners that are being suggested, his offensive production would have been significantly lower. Think "Nicklas Lidstrom playing with defensive liability Mathieu Schneider" lower (38 points in 81 games, second-worst in his career after 1992-93, when he played the defensive role for Howe and then Coffey). Bourque never had a partner close to as bad as Dandenault overall, while Lidstrom won two Norrises with Dandenault. Bourque didn't have a partner within miles of Schneider's defensive weakness either, and Lidstrom won two Norrises with him also.

Boston may have been weaker overall, but Bourque's partners certainly weren't weak.

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11-26-2012, 03:37 PM
  #195
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Bourque won four Norrises with Wesley, and none after.
So that's what cost Bourque the Norris Trophy in 1995-96; Glen Wesley was gone.

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11-26-2012, 03:50 PM
  #196
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We don't need multiple Lidstrom vs. Bourque threads. The life support this thread was on is now pulled.

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