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St. John's IceCaps 2012-13

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11-25-2012, 08:06 PM
  #701
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Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ View Post
6-0 IceCaps!?!!? What the... It was 2-0 at the end of the 2nd.
Nice. Like others have said, that low shooting percentage couldn't last forever...

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11-25-2012, 09:57 PM
  #702
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God damn, I'm sorry I slept through it. The highlights paint a pretty nice picture of the game, though.

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11-25-2012, 11:27 PM
  #703
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Meech, you points machine!

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11-25-2012, 11:50 PM
  #704
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Let me guess, Burmi once again the best Ice Cap but as usual posted no points.

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11-26-2012, 12:09 AM
  #705
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Let me guess, Burmi once again the best Ice Cap but as usual posted no points.
No... I'd say Machacek and Whitmore were probably the strongest... but Burmi wasn't to shabby. Pretty much killed a 5-on-3 by himself at one point.

But for those who are blind, Burmi and his main linemates (in order for what I've seen with Burmistrov and I've only missed one game so far):
Name GPGA PTSSOG SH%pts/gp
Burmistrov19279464.30.47
Maxwell19167482.10.32
Jaffray13268229.10.62
Tremblay13156166.30.46
Whitmore7123214.80.43
Gagnon11000170.00.00

All of those players -even Jaffray- are way lower than their normal for sh%. Not really a goal scorer for Burmistrov to set up.
Last post until next weekend... byyye

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11-26-2012, 12:19 AM
  #706
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No... I'd say Machacek and Whitmore were probably the strongest... but Burmi wasn't to shabby. Pretty much killed a 5-on-3 by himself at one point.

But for those who are blind, Burmi and his main linemates (in order for what I've seen with Burmistrov and I've only missed one game so far):
Name GPGA PTSSOG SH%pts/gp
Burmistrov19279464.30.47
Maxwell19167482.10.32
Jaffray13268229.10.62
Tremblay13156166.30.46
Whitmore7123214.80.43
Gagnon11000170.00.00

All of those players -even Jaffray- are way lower than their normal for sh%. Not really a goal scorer for Burmistrov to set up.
Last post until next weekend... byyye

Wish the AHL posted ice time.

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11-26-2012, 04:15 AM
  #707
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I'm seriously losing faith in Burmistrov. I'm not a hardcore fan. I think that's obvious. But seriously I don't see much coming from him as a future top 6 player other than flashy moves.

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11-26-2012, 07:49 AM
  #708
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I've been trying to avoid the discussion on Burmi, but I really expected to see more in St. Johns. IMO It's looking pretty doubtful that one day he will morph into Datsyuk. The kid is a great penalty killer, but I don't think that is the best outcome from a top 10 pick.

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11-26-2012, 10:27 AM
  #709
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I've been trying to avoid the discussion on Burmi, but I really expected to see more in St. Johns. IMO It's looking pretty doubtful that one day he will morph into Datsyuk. The kid is a great penalty killer, but I don't think that is the best outcome from a top 10 pick.
But Pavel never even got in the NHL until he was 22 or 23 and even then he only had 35 points in his first year so he wasn't really an overnight success until he was 24 years old. I doubt Burmi will ever be Pavel Datsyuk but we need to let this play out for another 2 or 3 seasons IMHO.

Interesting side note: of the 22 players drafted after Burmi in the first round in 2010 only 1 of them has played more than 10 games in the NHL to date. I would like for Alex to have gotten off to a more productive start this season points wise as well but I think it's way too early in his career to know how good he will be yet.

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11-26-2012, 10:54 AM
  #710
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But Pavel never even got in the NHL until he was 22 or 23 and even then he only had 35 points in his first year so he wasn't really an overnight success until he was 24 years old. I doubt Burmi will ever be Pavel Datsyuk but we need to let this play out for another 2 or 3 seasons IMHO.

Interesting side note: of the 22 players drafted after Burmi in the first round in 2010 only 1 of them has played more than 10 games in the NHL to date. I would like for Alex to have gotten off to a more productive start this season points wise as well but I think it's way too early in his career to know how good he will be yet.
I agree, and have tried to make that point as well.

Doesn't seem to matter to some though.

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11-26-2012, 10:54 AM
  #711
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But Pavel never even got in the NHL until he was 22 or 23 and even then he only had 35 points in his first year so he wasn't really an overnight success until he was 24 years old. I doubt Burmi will ever be Pavel Datsyuk but we need to let this play out for another 2 or 3 seasons IMHO.

Interesting side note: of the 22 players drafted after Burmi in the first round in 2010 only 1 of them has played more than 10 games in the NHL to date. I would like for Alex to have gotten off to a more productive start this season points wise as well but I think it's way too early in his career to know how good he will be yet.
Fair comment, his lack of point production even at the AHL level affirms what many have said during his past two NHL seasons, the kid was rushed into the NHL and probably should have played another year of junior followed by seasoning in the AHL.

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11-26-2012, 11:00 AM
  #712
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Fair comment, his lack of point production even at the AHL level affirms what many have said during his past two NHL seasons, the kid was rushed into the NHL and probably should have played another year of junior followed by seasoning in the AHL.
Yea I agree he should have never played in the NHL the year after his draft.

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11-26-2012, 11:16 AM
  #713
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But Pavel never even got in the NHL until he was 22 or 23 and even then he only had 35 points in his first year so he wasn't really an overnight success until he was 24 years old. I doubt Burmi will ever be Pavel Datsyuk but we need to let this play out for another 2 or 3 seasons IMHO.
That is not really an analogous comparison though. The Russian Super League was an appropriate place for Datsyuk to learn while on the job early in his career. The Jets can't really afford to have Burmistrov learn while on the job at the NHL level as it is not a developmental league.

I was never really on side with those that used Datsyuk as a comparative to Burmistrov's eventual potential anyway. Datsyuk's strength as a player has always been puck management - even back in his RSL days; conversely, Burmistrov's clear weakness is puck management at this level. He continually made poor decisions with the puck throughout the year last season and that is not long tolerated at the NHL level.

You may indeed be correct that Burmi will be a fine player in 2 or 3 years time, but it seems doubtful the Jets can wait that long given that they've Jokinen, Little, & now Scheif waiting in the pipeline. They can't really send Burmi to the AHL for 18 months (which is what he needs), as RSL has since evolved into the KHL and is now a league that can afford to draw native C.I.S. players back home. If he continues to make poor decisions with the puck at the NHL level when the league resumes play then I'm guessing we'll see him either traded elsewhere or go back home. It won't really prove a poor decision by the Jets if he indeed does blossom down the road and winds up an eventual solid player elsewhere, as management are really handcuffed by circumstance and his pending RFA status right now in my view.


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11-26-2012, 01:06 PM
  #714
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That is not really an analogous comparison though. The Russian Super League was an appropriate place for Datsyuk to learn while on the job early in his career. The Jets can't really afford to have Burmistrov learn while on the job at the NHL level as it is not a developmental league.

I was never really on side with those that used Datsyuk as a comparative to Burmistrov's eventual potential anyway. Datsyuk's strength as a player has always been puck management - even back in his RSL days; conversely, Burmistrov's clear weakness is puck management at this level. He continually made poor decisions with the puck throughout the year last season and that is not long tolerated at the NHL level.

You may indeed be correct that Burmi will be a fine player in 2 or 3 years time, but it seems doubtful the Jets can wait that long given that they've Jokinen, Little, & now Scheif waiting in the pipeline. They can't really send Burmi to the AHL for 18 months (which is what he needs), as RSL has since evolved into the KHL and is now a league that can afford to draw native C.I.S. players back home. If he continues to make poor decisions with the puck at the NHL level when the league resumes play then I'm guessing we'll see him either traded elsewhere or go back home. It won't really prove a poor decision by the Jets if he indeed does blossom down the road and winds up an eventual solid player elsewhere, as management are really handcuffed by circumstance and his pending RFA status right now in my view.
I heartily disagree.

Burmi clearly hasn't been as good as hoped, but he's still a very effective two way player and can handle the defensive aspect of the game more then adequately enough to be a third line center.

Jokiniens only signed for two years, afterwhich antropov and ponikorovsky are off the books as well, so I don't see why you'd trade him? In two years we should be running one of scheif/little little/burmi burm/scheif as 1a)1b) centers, meaning the odd man out takes the third line(or rw).

The benfit here is all three of our centers are (or are projecting as) very competent defensively, meaning the odd man out would be perfectly at home centering your third line.

so what, you'd trad him just because he's playing back on the third line? Are we assuming burmi won't agree to play in the NHL in a third line role?? I'm sorry, i don't follow the rational that burmi is a top 6 or bust player when his main talents, currently, are those well suited to a defensive player.

He may never end up worth his draft status, but i'm fairly confident that by the time we admit that, the jig will be up and the rest of league will know it too so you won't be getting back more value. Why would you arbitrarily put a timeline on him AND declare him a top 6 or nothing player? Both of those seem to border more on decisions made in spite rather then in logic, or am i just missing something?

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11-26-2012, 01:23 PM
  #715
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I heartily disagree.

Burmi clearly hasn't been as good as hoped, but he's still a very effective two way player and can handle the defensive aspect of the game more then adequately enough to be a third line center.

Jokiniens only signed for two years, afterwhich antropov and ponikorovsky are off the books as well, so I don't see why you'd trade him? In two years we should be running one of scheif/little little/burmi burm/scheif as 1a)1b) centers, meaning the odd man out takes the third line(or rw).

The benfit here is all three of our centers are (or are projecting as) very competent defensively, meaning the odd man out would be perfectly at home centering your third line.

so what, you'd trad him just because he's playing back on the third line? Are we assuming burmi won't agree to play in the NHL in a third line role?? I'm sorry, i don't follow the rational that burmi is a top 6 or bust player when his main talents, currently, are those well suited to a defensive player.

He may never end up worth his draft status, but i'm fairly confident that by the time we admit that, the jig will be up and the rest of league will know it too so you won't be getting back more value. Why would you arbitrarily put a timeline on him AND declare him a top 6 or nothing player? Both of those seem to border more on decisions made in spite rather then in logic, or am i just missing something?
We can have differing opinions as to his future, I'm fine with that.

I'd arbitrarily put a timeline on him because he manages the puck poorly; I'm guessing that is exactly why he was in Noel's doghouse for parts of last year as NHL coaches put a premium on players that perform as instructed. NHL hockey is all about maintenance of possession. He won't be granted much more time to learn on the job I'm betting. He has lots of skill but the fact that he weighs but 175 pounds soaking wet and that he has been unable to manage the puck properly to date both work against him. Deciding to move in a different direction has exactly nothing to do with spite, FYI.

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11-26-2012, 01:29 PM
  #716
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BTW, I didn't say that I'd trade him as per your claim but rather that I guessed that could be one of two eventual results, that he'll wind up either being traded or will return home.

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11-26-2012, 02:40 PM
  #717
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I agree, and have tried to make that point as well.

Doesn't seem to matter to some though.
Well count me in the 'disappointed in his AHL stint, so far' group (which I'm sure u have )

Its a results oriented business, Burmi needs to show he can deliver more than others wanting a top 6 or 9 spot. Jets management will not wait forever. Maybe 2 more yrs, as ps would like to see, if there is continual growth and development. I'm hopeful he hasn't plateaued.

And... If the Jets draft a premiere center in 2013 draft (a Mackinnon or Barkov or Monahan or Lindholm), which they might, depending on where they pick, that adds more competition for Burmi at center. His future might be as a winger.

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11-26-2012, 03:10 PM
  #718
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We can have differing opinions as to his future, I'm fine with that.

I'd arbitrarily put a timeline on him because he manages the puck poorly; I'm guessing that is exactly why he was in Noel's doghouse for parts of last year as NHL coaches put a premium on players that perform as instructed. NHL hockey is all about maintenance of possession. He won't be granted much more time to learn on the job I'm betting. He has lots of skill but the fact that he weighs but 175 pounds soaking wet and that he has been unable to manage the puck properly to date both work against him. Deciding to move in a different direction has exactly nothing to do with spite, FYI.
That makes more sense, it just initially read like "top 6 or bust". That being said I don't entirely agree with you on burmi's inability to be trusted, i think even with his puck distro problems he'd still do very well in a bottom 6 role. I also thought there were several members of our bottom six who were even less adept at boardplay/physicality then burmi.


As for how important that is/management sees it, lets remember, this is the management team that did sign Tanner Glass and wanted to resign him.

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11-26-2012, 03:11 PM
  #719
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Well count me in the 'disappointed in his AHL stint, so far' group (which I'm sure u have )

Its a results oriented business, Burmi needs to show he can deliver more than others wanting a top 6 or 9 spot. Jets management will not wait forever. Maybe 2 more yrs, as ps would like to see, if there is continual growth and development. I'm hopeful he hasn't plateaued.

And... If the Jets draft a premiere center in 2013 draft (a Mackinnon or Barkov or Monahan or Lindholm), which they might, depending on where they pick, that adds more competition for Burmi at center. His future might be as a winger.
IMO, we can be disappointed in his AHL point production so far, AND still be bullish on his future.

I'm just trying to say it doesn't have to be one of the other.

Maybe he makes it, and maybe he doesn't. But as PS241 indicated, only 1 of the 22 players selected after him in the first round of his draft have played more than 10 NHL games.

I'm sure that Minnesota can't wait to see Granlund. And Phoenix can't wait for Gormley. Same with Schwartz, Tarasenko, Hishon, Watson, Bjugstad, Tinordi, Etem, Kuznetsov, Nelson, Howden, etc.

It's as if getting rushed to the NHL before you are ready is a double whammy. Not only can it hurt your development, but if you don't bust out right out of the gate it seems like you're afforded less patience than other prospects playing in Juniors or Europe.

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11-26-2012, 03:23 PM
  #720
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IMO, we can be disappointed in his AHL point production so far, AND still be bullish on his future.

I'm just trying to say it doesn't have to be one of the other.

Maybe he makes it, and maybe he doesn't. But as PS241 indicated, only 1 of the 22 players selected after him in the first round of his draft have played more than 10 NHL games.

I'm sure that Minnesota can't wait to see Granlund. And Phoenix can't wait for Gormley. Same with Schwartz, Tarasenko, Hishon, Watson, Bjugstad, Tinordi, Etem, Kuznetsov, Nelson, Howden, etc.

It's as if getting rushed to the NHL before you are ready is a double whammy. Not only can it hurt your development, but if you don't bust out right out of the gate it seems like you're afforded less patience than other prospects playing in Juniors or Europe.
This is also something that really needs to be put in perspective. Just like an old discussion we had comparing Burmi to Couturier, there offense was the same, burmis corsi was much more favorable (harder competition, better results), but he's a year older thus running out of time, while many still believe the other is a likely superstar. Being rushed really is a double whammy.

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11-26-2012, 03:27 PM
  #721
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We can have differing opinions as to his future, I'm fine with that.

I'd arbitrarily put a timeline on him because he manages the puck poorly; I'm guessing that is exactly why he was in Noel's doghouse for parts of last year as NHL coaches put a premium on players that perform as instructed. NHL hockey is all about maintenance of possession. He won't be granted much more time to learn on the job I'm betting. He has lots of skill but the fact that he weighs but 175 pounds soaking wet and that he has been unable to manage the puck properly to date both work against him. Deciding to move in a different direction has exactly nothing to do with spite, FYI.
I think that was a product of his immaturity and the cure for that is time.

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11-26-2012, 04:25 PM
  #722
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That is not really an analogous comparison though. The Russian Super League was an appropriate place for Datsyuk to learn while on the job early in his career. The Jets can't really afford to have Burmistrov learn while on the job at the NHL level as it is not a developmental league.

I was never really on side with those that used Datsyuk as a comparative to Burmistrov's eventual potential anyway. Datsyuk's strength as a player has always been puck management - even back in his RSL days; conversely, Burmistrov's clear weakness is puck management at this level. He continually made poor decisions with the puck throughout the year last season and that is not long tolerated at the NHL level.

You may indeed be correct that Burmi will be a fine player in 2 or 3 years time, but it seems doubtful the Jets can wait that long given that they've Jokinen, Little, & now Scheif waiting in the pipeline. They can't really send Burmi to the AHL for 18 months (which is what he needs), as RSL has since evolved into the KHL and is now a league that can afford to draw native C.I.S. players back home. If he continues to make poor decisions with the puck at the NHL level when the league resumes play then I'm guessing we'll see him either traded elsewhere or go back home. It won't really prove a poor decision by the Jets if he indeed does blossom down the road and winds up an eventual solid player elsewhere, as management are really handcuffed by circumstance and his pending RFA status right now in my view.
good post and fun debate Gump.

I wish I had the talent to break up your post and respond to sections of it like the fancy schmacy people do but alas I am a grinder at best in the tech world so I will need your talent to just figure out what bolded parts I am responding to.

To the point of Pavel Datsyuk and his development path lets drill a little bit deeper. I agree the Russian super league was a great spot for him to cut his teeth. Obviously getting picked in the sixth round in the draft as an overage player means he was not showing a whole heck of allot at the time or the entire scouting community had fallen asleep (doubtful). I heard an interview with Kenny Holland where the person talking to him said "Ken you guys obviously know what you are doing when you draft because look at how good Datsyuk turned out and you picked him in the 6th round" to which Ken replied "no we got lucky on that one because if we had any idea how good he would turn out we obviously would have taken him in the 1st or 2nd round". Now Ken was being modest but the point is somewhat relevant. I have no idea how good Pavel was back in the day but perhaps he learned allot of his puck handling skills while in Russia between the ages of 18 to 22? Lord knows in the 5 seasons between when he was 18 in 1996-97 and when he joined the Wings full time in 2001-02 he would have had allot of time to work on his skills. I have no idea how Pavel’s game looked when he was 18 or 19 but he certainly was out of the spotlight and not exposed to the rigors of an 82 game NHL schedule. Who knows, perhaps he had some troubles with puck management, or he was not physically mature and that is why it took so long for him to make it to the parent club? All I know is it took until he was 24 before he started to excel at an NHL level.

I would respectfully disagree with you on how long the Jets have with Burmi, I think we can afford to let him learn on the job within reason. You did say "if" he continues to make poor decisions with the puck and that is a good point. I think the key this season (if we have one) will be getting him on the 3rd line with veterans like Poni and Antro and simplifying the game plan. Classic 3rd line work where he spends time with a couple of savvy eastern bloc veterans who can communicate well will him will do his game a world of good (fingers crossed). If he gets put on the shut down, puck control via the cycle line I believe he could do pretty well and certainly not be a liability at least.

I don’t have the blinders on with Burmi and I have concerns like everyone else, it’s just that personally my expectations are tempered by his age.


Last edited by ps241: 11-26-2012 at 04:33 PM.
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11-26-2012, 05:02 PM
  #723
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g
...
I don’t have the blinders on with Burmi and I have concerns like everyone else, it’s just that personally my expectations are tempered by his age.
very well said PS, and I very much agree.

I think we can take our time with Burmi, but i do get Gumps concern. The jets will not rush him, and would likely be patient and giving him two more years. I think gumps concern is more, "will burmistrov give himself two more years?" If the jets bring him up this season (or next season) and he struggles and they decide to send him back to the A, will Burmi stay there, or will he try and get back to Russsia? He can't due to the new rules but I get where Gumps coming from. That being said, based off his interviews Burmi has always come across as a kid that wants to be in North America, and i'm not as concerned.

Also it's entersting to note that Burmi that Burmi went 8th overall... if you look at who went the years before him it's a rather unglamorous list of Zach Hamill, Mikael Boedker and Scott Glennie. Before that Is Devin Setoguchi, Alexander Picard, and Peter Meuller. Aside from Muellers rookie year, none of them have been remarkably better then Burmi. I'd argue the only one better then burmi on that list thus far is Setoguchi, who didn't play great untill three years after his draft (this year for burmi) and even then, he's hardly a superstar. Expectations need to be tempered in both Age and really just how good 8th overall picks tend to be...

edit:i looked further and 8th overall appears to be the very definition of mediocrity. Braydon Coburn (by far the best thus far, ironically drafted by Atlanta) followed by, Pascal leclair, Nikita Alexeeve, Pier marc bouchard, Taylor Pyatt, Mark Bell, Sergei Samsonov... .it goes on and on. Historically, 8th overall is one of the worst places to pick in comparison of how good that player usually ends up vs players picked shortly afterwards. If Burmi becomes a reliable top 9 he's doing better then most on this list.


Last edited by Grind: 11-26-2012 at 05:14 PM.
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11-26-2012, 05:23 PM
  #724
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Burmi is listed at 6'1 and 180 lbs, but he looked lighter than that to me last year. I wonder whether a little more beef would inspire him to play less of a perimeter game. Scheifele put on the weight and it looks to have helped his overall game a lot.

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11-26-2012, 05:36 PM
  #725
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Burmistrov is going to be a very good hockey player and a pivotal part of the Jets core group for years to come. Some of you just need some patience.

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