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Official Eskimos and CFL thread: Esks in camp

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Old
11-26-2012, 01:08 AM
  #1
s7ark
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Official Eskimos and CFL thread: Esks in camp

Last thread hit 1000.

We can continue here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NewOilRising View Post
Probably that he'd do it again, and I'd totally agree. He'd done nothing the last several years, something needed to be shaken up.



Lol, owned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
He's ecstatic. He's going to Toronto and the league won't even bother to question the absurdity surrounding the situation. Gotta protect that impeccable Argonauts franchise.

Anyway, I'm happy for Ray. Tonight's win cements him as one of the game's greats but I still can't help but feel a little ripped off by the previous six seasons. The Eskimos' failings weren't all on him and we'd definitely be better off with him but he lost his spark over his final few seasons as an Eskimo... and that frustrates the hell out of me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
I know, and as soon as I got that delicious find PDO heads for the hills and turned off the board.

Some of you others that keep talking smack I've got yours too if you want it.


At least I'm consistent. i wasn't impressed with Ray, or the Win back then, and said so:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrolean View Post
Ray wasn't playing at an all star level the past few years with the Esks. Perhaps it was more due to the management and personnel, but he seemed to be rejuvenated with a new team.

It happens sometimes and the trade value in hindsight was obviously bad.

Time to move on, nothing you can do to turn the clock back and void the trade. Tillman's head has roiled and perhaps Rhodes should too.

At least we didn't trade him until he has 9 years with us. Maybe he has from 2 to 4 years left, who knows? Maybe he will regress, that;s been known to happen before too.

Time to look forward to the future with a new GM and hopefully better players and management. Fans sure like to dwell on things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
I'd like to let the trade go (and lets be honest, it was probably time for the Esks and Ray to part ways) but I think that the Toronto media (and TSN) are going to be running with this story for a good while.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez View Post
Checked in to see if anything has changed...nope.

Replacement is still determined to be right about Ray despite all the evidence to the contrary.

In any event...good for Ray.

He deserves this 3rd Grey Cup win. Just goes to show what Ray can do when you have a coaching staff that is smart enough to design a system around him instead of trying to make Ray fit a system.

Good to see that Tillman was around long enough to take what Macciocia left behind and **** it up even worse.

With Reed and Rhodes around for a few more years the Eskimo s**t show is pretty much a guarantee to continue.

In any event kudos to Ray and the Argos.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arpeggio View Post
Congratulations to Ricky Ray on his third Grey Cup, further cementing his status as one of the all-time CFL greats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
I was hoping for him to tie or pass Calvillo for the most TD passes in Grey Cups but alas.

Still, 8 TD passes in 4 games is better than 9 in what? 8 appearances?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reimer View Post
Well so much for Ray being done and never leading a team to another Grey Cup.

I'll take my crow medium rare with a bit of char on the feather please.

Give me a little extra and I'll make sure Liquor and Replacment get theirs too.
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
If they would have got that review call correct he would have had 9.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
Yeah, I thought that was a TD, definitely.
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Originally Posted by The Great Ones View Post
The Argos win a cup, we win cap space.
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Originally Posted by PACKY D ELEPHANT View Post
I finally see eric's master plan

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Old
11-26-2012, 01:22 AM
  #2
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Let's take a trip back to December 2011, just for old times' sake...

Quote:
Ray trade an ego play 85

BY TERRY JONES, EDMONTON SUN

CALGARY - Eric Tillman might turn out to be right.

But he's not right, right now. And right now is real important to Edmonton and the Eskimos.

Right now, there is a great deal of anger out there. And Len (The Brand Man) Rhodes, the new CEO of the Eskimos -- and a guy who knows nothing about football -- not only says he endorsed the dumb deal to trade Ricky Ray for insulting returns and $200,000 in cap space, he was actually taking credit for it Tuesday as part of his grand plan to make Eskimos football more exciting.

Two weeks into his new job, Rhodes had a big pitcher of Tillman's Kool-Aid on his table and took the big gulp.

Now his job of selling the brand just became doubly difficult. But he says he thinks it might be the opposite.

And he says he's not at all disturbed by the reaction.

"I expected it," he said.

"I'd have been disappointed if there wasn't this reaction. It's Ricky Ray. There's a passion for the Eskimos in Edmonton. It's a great thing to have that here. It's better than having apathy in other markets."

Rhodes argues that trading Ray makes the brand better, the product easier to sell.

"It means we'll have a more entertaining team. It adds an element fans haven't seen, and that makes it easier to market. I believe we're enhancing the fan experience by going with young quarterbacks who can run. I'm convinced the fan experience in 2012 is going to be greater because of that.

"It's a vision I'm going to bring. It's an exciting element of play I want to bring back.

"It's my responsibility to listen to Eric's recommendations and make these decisions," Rhodes said.

Tillman played a major role, along with rookie head coach Kavis Reed -- whom Tillman hired to the surprise of many -- to get the Eskimos from last place in 2010 to their first home playoff game since 2004, and to the Western Final for the first time since 2005.

He gets all the credit in the world for that. And he has a history of success with eyebrow-raising deals.

So, in Tillman must we trust?

Sorry.

I don't think he did the right thing for Edmonton.

There's just too much evidence to indicate this was more about the GM's ego than it was about the Eskimos. I think Tillman got caught drinking his own Kool-Aid.

I refuse to believe that Reed would have said he wholeheartedly endorsed this deal or thought it was in the best interest of the EE in the next year or three, if Rhodes had asked him privately.

"I asked Eric and Kavis if they'd both go 100% forward with the three of us holding hands if we did this deal," said Rhodes.

That's a lot different than getting the coach to tell him he 100% endorsed it.

I believe Kavis Reed 0% endorsed the deal. Reed did walk out of the office holding hands with the man who hired him. But read his quotes and listen to his voice clips. He's an intelligent man. He chose his words well.

But what's done is done.

"This deal would never have been made if we did did not feel we had tremendous upside with (quarterbacks) Matt Nichols and Eric Ward," said Tillman.

He wants you to believe he has a Travis Lulay and a Drew Tate in these two guys?

Anybody think Steven Jyles -- the QB coming over from the Argos for Ray -- is likely to duplicate any one of Lulay's accomplishments in being voted the league's most outstanding player, all-star quarterback, Grey Cup winner and Grey Cup MVP ?

Tillman could be right.Maybe one of these guys might turn out to be great -- in two or three years.

But not right now.

Right now the Eskimos, considering where they've been these last few years, don't need to go backwards again so Tillman can step out and steal the off-season stage and exercise his ego by trading a future Hall of Famer who, one day after Tillman has moved on (he always moves on), will be asked to come back to put his name and number up on the Eskimos Wall of Fame.
http://www.edmontonsun.com/2011/12/1...n-on-ray-trade

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11-26-2012, 01:39 AM
  #3
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Although Ray was HOF bound prior to tonight's win, this game all but cemented his legacy as a HOF CFLer.

Good for him. One of the classiest men to ever play for the Eskimos during my generation as a fan.

Yes, there are haters, the doubters. That is to be expected when an outcome like this happens.

Now the attention can shift back to our own club.

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11-26-2012, 03:02 AM
  #4
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Eskimos fans finally realize what they had in Ricky Ray
http://www.ourhometown.ca/edmonton/sports/RS0480.php

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Old
11-26-2012, 03:04 AM
  #5
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Was at the Spirit of Edmonton last night. You guys really know how to have a good time.

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Old
11-26-2012, 05:05 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuhr View Post
Eskimos fans finally realize what they had in Ricky Ray
http://www.ourhometown.ca/edmonton/sports/RS0480.php
Ugh. Not looking forward to reading the sun this morning.

This smug, self righteous ******** is gonna get old, quick.

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Old
11-26-2012, 09:18 AM
  #7
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I find it interesting in the last thread that people are arguing Ray being better than Calvillo on the basis of throwing 8TD passes in his 4 GC games while Calvillo has 9 in 8 games.

Thats a specious limited games stat. I suppose people can throw a "clutch" tag on that but its odd that I've argued all along that one of the drawbacks in RR's career all along is TD strikes generated. For instance whenever I present this link theres complete silence:

http://thestudyofsports.com/cflalltimeleaders.html


Note for instance that Calvillo has passed for twice as many Career TD's as Ray. Its actually shocking how futile Ray has been in his career at TD passes when he spent years working with Tucker, Hervey, Vaughn.

Fact of the matter is the great RR took 7 years to get to a Grey Cup in an 8 team league after 2005.

In all in Rays 11 completed seasons he's reached the GC 4times. A random average starting QB in an 8 team league would be in the GC 3 times. Ray is one better than random average in that regard. Calvillo, with twice the Cup appearances is far above Ray in consistency of leading his team there. Indeed Calvillo was entering GC's on an almost annual basis while Ray was shut out.


Last edited by Replacement: 11-26-2012 at 09:25 AM.
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11-26-2012, 09:23 AM
  #8
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I still think Ray had the luxury of two oustanding receivers in Edmonton when he won 2 Cups.

I'm still not upset that we traded him, infact, the second quarter he did squat and his D won this game. I am upset we have no QB though.

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Old
11-26-2012, 09:23 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewOilRising View Post
Ugh. Not looking forward to reading the sun this morning.

This smug, self righteous ******** is gonna get old, quick.
Sure it is, and I hope it does here too. This has to rank as one of the most frustrating times ever for Edmonton sports fans and I don't know that the number of troll articles even from local beat reporters is helping much right now.

We'll hear enough of this crap from the center of the universe. We'll hear it constantly for years. Like I said people don't know how Toronto media grab onto any win and will with this one for a decade. We won't hear the end of it in Edmonton.

Finally it was a laugh seeing all those Argo bandwagon fans come out of the woodwork again. Which they do at all the right times. But what will attendance be on an ongoing basis in the CFL's biggest city, but poorest CFL market. Not even Doug Flutie turned around that franchise for long. I wonder how long before apathy settles in this time.

Finally, the Argos were 7-9 on the season mere weeks ago. With no excitement on the field or in the stands and a very ordinary looking team all year. This is a team that got on a roll. A 9-9 team that won it all. On the basis of seasons record one of the weakest clubs to ever hoist the GC. In an off year in the CFL where few teams looked any good. Does anybody think this Argos team is better than the Eskimos last year? Does anybody think this Argos team would beat last years Lions?

This is one of the easiest Cup Wins I've ever seen. EVERY team they Argos played was disorganized on the sidelines and on the field. Every opponent unravelled quickly in the respective games.


Last edited by Replacement: 11-26-2012 at 09:29 AM.
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Old
11-26-2012, 09:55 AM
  #10
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You're sniffing glue if you think it's even close between Ray and Cavillo. Ray found early success in Edmonton but arguably played his prime on a listless squad. Cavillo made Grey Cups by default and the head to head record suggests Ray has the better numbers. Cavillo's weapons were just as good, if not better. Take a look and ask yourself why the Als haven't won a Grey Cup outside of Alberta under Cavillo. Ray has been better than him, is currently better than him, and will continue to be better than him. He may not match the longevity of Cavillo but in terms of being a big game player he is just as legitimate as Cavillo, if not superior.

This win simply further cements him as a definite hall of famer and unfortunately makes the Eskimos look like a second class organization. Tillman definitely did his best to tarnish the "once and Eskimo, always an Eskimo". I don't think Toronto is done yet, especially with the Als in decline personel-wise. Ray might see a few more opportunities.

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Old
11-26-2012, 10:15 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Six in O6 View Post
You're sniffing glue if you think it's even close between Ray and Cavillo. Ray found early success in Edmonton but arguably played his prime on a listless squad. Cavillo made Grey Cups by default and the head to head record suggests Ray has the better numbers. Cavillo's weapons were just as good, if not better. Take a look and ask yourself why the Als haven't won a Grey Cup outside of Alberta under Cavillo. Ray has been better than him, is currently better than him, and will continue to be better than him. He may not match the longevity of Cavillo but in terms of being a big game player he is just as legitimate as Cavillo, if not superior.

This win simply further cements him as a definite hall of famer and unfortunately makes the Eskimos look like a second class organization. Tillman definitely did his best to tarnish the "once and Eskimo, always an Eskimo". I don't think Toronto is done yet, especially with the Als in decline personel-wise. Ray might see a few more opportunities.
I love arguments that start out like the bolded. Also, you might want to know that Calvillo dominated the career head to head matchup.

On what basis is "Ray better than Calvillo" ?

Nobody would be stating this as little as a month ago.

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11-26-2012, 10:29 AM
  #12
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Here's a solid tweet last night from Gregor that sums up Ray haters in Edmonton:

Jason Gregor ‏@JasonGregor All the Ray haters should recognize you don't know how to evaluate QBs. Don't worry Tillman didn't either in this case.

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11-26-2012, 10:34 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reimer View Post
Here's a solid tweet last night from Gregor that sums up Ray haters in Edmonton:

Jason Gregor ‏@JasonGregor All the Ray haters should recognize you don't know how to evaluate QBs. Don't worry Tillman didn't either in this case.
So Ray here equals us winning yesterday?

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11-26-2012, 10:37 AM
  #14
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So Ray here equals us winning yesterday?
Ummm yeah sure.

He's giving a sarcastic free pass to the people who dislike Ray.

edit: Sums up was the wrong wording, but a good tweet for the crowd rather.

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11-26-2012, 10:53 AM
  #15
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Ummm yeah sure.

He's giving a sarcastic free pass to the people who dislike Ray.

edit: Sums up was the wrong wording, but a good tweet for the crowd rather.
I don't think that the people that disliked Ray(myself included) thought he sucked. He just wasn't the right QB here.

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11-26-2012, 11:06 AM
  #16
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I don't think that the people that disliked Ray(myself included) thought he sucked. He just wasn't the right QB here.
He wasn't given the tools to be successful since 2005. He's the quarterback you make the right one if things aren't working out. We didn't adjust. This team is going to pay the price for it.

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11-26-2012, 11:17 AM
  #17
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Quote:
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I don't think that the people that disliked Ray(myself included) thought he sucked. He just wasn't the right QB here.
So why would Ray be the right QB somewhere else but not Edmonton?

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11-26-2012, 11:38 AM
  #18
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Let's face it. We were 1 game away from the grey cup last year with essentially the same team + Ricky. Tillman gave them a gifthorse at the end of the day though I'm not even that upset we traded Ray it's more the fact that we got essentially nothing for him.

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11-26-2012, 11:44 AM
  #19
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Quote:
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So Ray here equals us winning yesterday?
In my mind yes. We made the playoffs with the two worst QBs in the league in large part because our D was so strong. With even a decent QB I think we would have played in the 100th GC.

Quote:
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So why would Ray be the right QB somewhere else but not Edmonton?
They were smart enough to get him a solid O-line for protection and practice downfield blocking so Ray's quick 6yrd passes could turn into bigger gains.

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11-26-2012, 12:07 PM
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I do not want to see Kyle Koch back next season. In my opinion, he could be the worst offensive lineman in the CFL.

It has been two months since Pasztor was signed to the Jaguars practice roster. Given that he has been with the Jags for 8 weeks, before taxes, he has earned roughly 45k. Not bad pay for two months "work". If I were him, I would rather stay down south on a PR than be up here.

The next GM has a lot of work to do when it comes to fixing the o-line.


Last edited by Auguste Escoffier: 11-26-2012 at 12:15 PM.
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11-26-2012, 01:12 PM
  #21
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Lets be clear here to avoid a lot of argument. The Toronto Argonauts have an allstar coaching lineup.

That went a long ways to them completing their objective. With that we also saw a much different, and better Ray down the stretch. I have no doubt Milanovich had a lot to do with that and Milanovich has been vocal all year about Ray having the ingredients but needing to learn some things and put it into their package.

Rays quicks reads are so much better in the last half dozen games. Impressive. But lets be clear. He isn't getting the expert instruction he's getting in Toronto if he's still here.

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11-26-2012, 01:16 PM
  #22
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Quote:
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In my mind yes. We made the playoffs with the two worst QBs in the league in large part because our D was so strong. With even a decent QB I think we would have played in the 100th GC.



They were smart enough to get him a solid O-line for protection and practice downfield blocking so Ray's quick 6yrd passes could turn into bigger gains.
I think a lot of the success also has to do with the Chads, with some quick iso's and great schemes where they get dangerous targets in man on man situations and let them break tackles from there. Neither Chad is stoppable with one on one coverage. These guys are proving to be gamebreakers. That said Ray was finding the quick hit stuff excellently the last half dozen games. Had I seen that here on any regular basis the last half dozen years I'd be a Ray fan.

Turned out that a veteran 10year QB needed a whole lot more coaching guidance then one would expect. The results and dividends now paying off.

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11-26-2012, 01:59 PM
  #23
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I watched NFL yesterday. Not sure if I'll pay for an Esks ticket for a long time.

Really sick of hoping the higher-ups know what they're doing, and being forced into trusting them in order to be a fan of this team.

Replace "NFL" with "other teams" and "Esks" with "Oilers" and you have my opinion on all Edmonton major league sports.

What a wasteland of incompetency.

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11-26-2012, 02:18 PM
  #24
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I think a lot of the success also has to do with the Chads, with some quick iso's and great schemes where they get dangerous targets in man on man situations and let them break tackles from there. Neither Chad is stoppable with one on one coverage. These guys are proving to be gamebreakers. That said Ray was finding the quick hit stuff excellently the last half dozen games. Had I seen that here on any regular basis the last half dozen years I'd be a Ray fan.

Turned out that a veteran 10year QB needed a whole lot more coaching guidance then one would expect. The results and dividends now paying off.
That's the exact same game he played here. Calvin Mccarthy made a living off those quick little dump passes. All of our running backs had to be able to catch the ball more than run it because we used those quick dumps whenever he was under pressure. Ray never had a problem making those little plays and gaining yardage. The biggest problem we had was an oline that was full of holes and an inability to punch the football into the endzone.

Ray lead the league in passing yards in 08 and 09 and was consistently near the top of the league throughout his tenure. I didnt see anything in the Grey Cup from Ricky that he wasnt showing while he was here. You are absolutely right that he's well coached in Toronto and the team has been built well. They've put together the pieces that the Eskimos couldnt and it's a condemnation of the current and past organization that have let the team fall so low.

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11-26-2012, 02:49 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Six in O6 View Post
You're sniffing glue if you think it's even close between Ray and Cavillo. Ray found early success in Edmonton but arguably played his prime on a listless squad. Cavillo made Grey Cups by default and the head to head record suggests Ray has the better numbers. Cavillo's weapons were just as good, if not better. Take a look and ask yourself why the Als haven't won a Grey Cup outside of Alberta under Cavillo. Ray has been better than him, is currently better than him, and will continue to be better than him. He may not match the longevity of Cavillo but in terms of being a big game player he is just as legitimate as Cavillo, if not superior.

This win simply further cements him as a definite hall of famer and unfortunately makes the Eskimos look like a second class organization. Tillman definitely did his best to tarnish the "once and Eskimo, always an Eskimo". I don't think Toronto is done yet, especially with the Als in decline personel-wise. Ray might see a few more opportunities.
Ray is one of my favourite all-time Esks, but Calvillo is better. He'll go down as one of the greatest of all time.

And, unless you're saying something that is clearly correct (such as Ray is better than Don Trull), it's arrogant to claim those who disagree with you are sniffing glue.

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