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Buffalo Bills: Regular Season (4-7)

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11-26-2012, 01:35 PM
  #1001
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Originally Posted by buffswords View Post
We might as well just lose the rest of the games to get a good pick, hopefully Te'o.
But knowing the Bills, "With the 7th pick in the 2013 NFL Draft, the Buffalo Bills select...Marcus Lattimore, running back, South Carolina.
Think Lattimore will be redshirting, if not, out of football next year. Terrible injury.

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11-26-2012, 02:02 PM
  #1002
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I'm not saying he won those games single handedly, but can it really get that much worse with Jackson instead of Fitzpatrick? Fitzpatrick was 4-10-1 before coming to Buffalo with a 12/17 TD/INT ratio. In the two years in Cincinnati before coming here he played 14 games and averaged 136 yards a game. What puts him on another level to Jackson other than the fact that he already has the job?
Yes, it can. Fitzpatrick is not a great QB, and we know he's not the future, but he's better than Jackson and Thigpen.

You're making the same argument that gets made for losing teams. People around Buffalo wanted Reich to be the starter over Kelly every time he played a bad game or two. Same thing happens with Miller. The backups are always considered 'not much worse' until they get in, then people remember why they were backups in the first place.


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we need a new owner before they can get the right GM and coach in here. Until that happens, none of the top GM or coaching candidates will seriously consider Buffalo.
This. Nobody can seriously expect any significant change down there until ownership changes hands.

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11-26-2012, 02:23 PM
  #1003
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Yes, it can. Fitzpatrick is not a great QB, and we know he's not the future, but he's better than Jackson and Thigpen.

You're making the same argument that gets made for losing teams. People around Buffalo wanted Reich to be the starter over Kelly every time he played a bad game or two. Same thing happens with Miller. The backups are always considered 'not much worse' until they get in, then people remember why they were backups in the first place.
Fitzpatrick is neither Kelly, nor Miller. Jackson and Fitzpatrick have almost identical career QB ratings. What is realistically the best case scenario if Fitzpatrick starts the rest of the year? Two or 3 wins against some bad teams? It's not that Jackson is the savior or that he will definitely win 5 games in a row, but that we know Fitzpatrick won't. He's never won more than 3 games in a row in the NFL. History says he's not going to run the table. So what's the point? We've seen this all before. Your logic is similar to Chan's whole "Jackson can't start because Fitzpatrick has to get the 1st team reps because he has to start" thing. Worst case scenario is Jackson is completely terrible and the Bills lose out. Chan gets fired and they get a better draft pick. Sounds just about ideal.

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11-26-2012, 02:31 PM
  #1004
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Originally Posted by Pondslider View Post
Fitzpatrick is neither Kelly, nor Miller. Jackson and Fitzpatrick have almost identical career QB ratings. What is realistically the best case scenario if Fitzpatrick starts the rest of the year? Two or 3 wins against some bad teams? It's not that Jackson is the savior or that he will definitely win 5 games in a row, but that we know Fitzpatrick won't. He's never won more than 3 games in a row in the NFL. History says he's not going to run the table. So what's the point? We've seen this all before. Your logic is similar to Chan's whole "Jackson can't start because Fitzpatrick has to get the 1st team reps because he has to start" thing. Worst case scenario is Jackson is completely terrible and the Bills lose out. Chan gets fired and they get a better draft pick. Sounds just about ideal.
I wasn't implying that Fitz is Kelly, or Miller for that matter. It's the larger point; the most popular guy in town is the backup.

This is not a good team with Fitz. It's a worse team with Jackson. That's my logic.

Put your best team on the field every week. Don't tank for draft picks. If you want to make the argument that Jackson is BETTER than Fitz, and that's why he should start, then ok. I'll listen to that. Probably won't agree, but it's reasonable.

Saying Jackson should start because 'it can't be any worse' is a non starter for me.

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11-26-2012, 02:43 PM
  #1005
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I too want to know why Jackson isn't at least dressed. Makes no sense to give up a pick to strengthen the backup QB position only to not even dress the backup QB all season long and we're into Week 13 now. I understand the Bills want to make the conditional pick we're giving Seattle as low as possible, but it's not like Jackson will play even five games for us, let alone one if we finish out with Fitz and Jackson stays on the sidelines. Unless it counts if Jackson is dressed for the game and doesn't necessarily play. I'd imagine he'd have to appear in the game for it to count.

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11-26-2012, 02:46 PM
  #1006
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
I wasn't implying that Fitz is Kelly, or Miller for that matter. It's the larger point; the most popular guy in town is the backup.

This is not a good team with Fitz. It's a worse team with Jackson. That's my logic.

Put your best team on the field every week. Don't tank for draft picks. If you want to make the argument that Jackson is BETTER than Fitz, and that's why he should start, then ok. I'll listen to that. Probably won't agree, but it's reasonable.

Saying Jackson should start because 'it can't be any worse' is a non starter for me.
The bills have been doing what you suggest for 13 years. The Colts hit rock bottom (albeit not in their control) and landed the 1st overall pick. All of a sudden, they're a decent team with an elite young QB. They went from worst team in the NFL to being in the playoff hunt the very next year.

I think I know which route I prefer.

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11-26-2012, 02:55 PM
  #1007
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Originally Posted by HockeyH3aven View Post
The bills have been doing what you suggest for 13 years. The Colts hit rock bottom (albeit not in their control) and landed the 1st overall pick. All of a sudden, they're a decent team with an elite young QB. They went from worst team in the NFL to being in the playoff hunt the very next year.

I think I know which route I prefer.
You could get Andrew Luck. You could get Ryan Leaf. That's why I don't like the idea of tanking for a couple extra spots up.

The Colts made a lot more changes than just Andrew Luck. They hired a new coach and GM, drafted Luck, cut a lot of dead weight off the roster, and changed defensive schemes to better suit personnel. They were probably better talent wise than a 2-14 team last year, but their record was what it was. (I think with anyone better than Kerry Collins they could have gotten to 4-5 wins.)

If anything, the Colts reinforce the point that if you have an owner committed to actually trying to be successful, you can turn things around quickly. The Bills don't have that.

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11-26-2012, 03:04 PM
  #1008
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
I wasn't implying that Fitz is Kelly, or Miller for that matter. It's the larger point; the most popular guy in town is the backup.

This is not a good team with Fitz. It's a worse team with Jackson. That's my logic.

Put your best team on the field every week. Don't tank for draft picks. If you want to make the argument that Jackson is BETTER than Fitz, and that's why he should start, then ok. I'll listen to that. Probably won't agree, but it's reasonable.

Saying Jackson should start because 'it can't be any worse' is a non starter for me.
I don't know if Jackson is better because I haven't seen him play in this system. I think just looking at their stats they're very similar. I think Fitzpatrick has difficulty making routine throws and that another QB without Fitzpatrick's mechanical issues might have more success making those throws. More of those completions, leads to longer drives, leads to more points. At least in theory. Maybe Jackson wouldn't be successful here, but I think it's insane to do the same thing over and over and expect something new to happen and I don't see the harm in trying something new.

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11-26-2012, 03:09 PM
  #1009
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Originally Posted by Pondslider View Post
I don't know if Jackson is better because I haven't seen him play in this system. I think just looking at their stats they're very similar. I think Fitzpatrick has difficulty making routine throws and that another QB without Fitzpatrick's mechanical issues might have more success making those throws. More of those completions, leads to longer drives, leads to more points. At least in theory. Maybe Jackson wouldn't be successful here, but I think it's insane to do the same thing over and over and expect something new to happen and I don't see the harm in trying something new.
Pretty much how I feel. I don't expect Jackson to light it up, and in fact he's probably worse. But you really don't know until you give the guy a shot. Sometimes it just takes the right system with the right personnel at the right time for guys to get it.

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11-26-2012, 03:17 PM
  #1010
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Originally Posted by Pondslider View Post
I don't know if Jackson is better because I haven't seen him play in this system. I think just looking at their stats they're very similar. I think Fitzpatrick has difficulty making routine throws and that another QB without Fitzpatrick's mechanical issues might have more success making those throws. More of those completions, leads to longer drives, leads to more points. At least in theory. Maybe Jackson wouldn't be successful here, but I think it's insane to do the same thing over and over and expect something new to happen and I don't see the harm in trying something new.
Jackson's mechanics aren't great either. He was never very good in Minnesota, and the few games I saw him play in Seattle didn't impress either.

Fitz has proven he CAN be successful in this system; the knock is inconsistency. In general, I don't like change for the sake of change either. Put the guy in that gives you the best chance to win, even if that winning blows up your draft position.

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11-26-2012, 03:29 PM
  #1011
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and whos happy with Johnson? He blew that big play, WTF did he stop for? Then he ran to the right, where as if he ran to the left there was room to run, it looked like he was waiting for Chandler to give a block...but if thats the case thats not what he ended up doing.

I do agree on Gailey's playcalling though. The RedZone play calling was horrific by Gailey.
Well this isn't true. It is well established that Johnson is not a fast receiver. He's a route runner and he does it well but he's not going to burn anyone in the open field. He picked his spots and got 63 yards out of the play. Nothing wrong with that at all

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11-26-2012, 03:33 PM
  #1012
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Jackson's mechanics aren't great either. He was never very good in Minnesota, and the few games I saw him play in Seattle didn't impress either.

Fitz has proven he CAN be successful in this system; the knock is inconsistency. In general, I don't like change for the sake of change either. Put the guy in that gives you the best chance to win, even if that winning blows up your draft position.
I think with Fitzpatrick there is 0% chance they win out. I think with Jackson there might be .05%.

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11-26-2012, 04:36 PM
  #1013
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Originally Posted by BK Triple Threat View Post
Doing some quick looking I would say if the Bills finish 9-7 the only other team I think that may finish there is Pittsburgh, I think the Bills would have the tiebreaker over them. I think everyone else in the hunt(including Cincy and Miami) will be 8-8 or worse. The bills Defense actually looked decent yesterday, hey Stupid mario you're alive!!!! The schedule is weak enough they could win out if the D plays like that.
It's also time to start saying that the Bills are a weak opponent for every other team in the league...they see the Bills on the schedule and say that it's a game they should win too.

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11-26-2012, 04:55 PM
  #1014
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
You could get Andrew Luck. You could get Ryan Leaf. That's why I don't like the idea of tanking for a couple extra spots up.

The Colts made a lot more changes than just Andrew Luck. They hired a new coach and GM, drafted Luck, cut a lot of dead weight off the roster, and changed defensive schemes to better suit personnel. They were probably better talent wise than a 2-14 team last year, but their record was what it was. (I think with anyone better than Kerry Collins they could have gotten to 4-5 wins.)

If anything, the Colts reinforce the point that if you have an owner committed to actually trying to be successful, you can turn things around quickly. The Bills don't have that.
I wouldn't go that far and praise Irsay, it was a lot more of right time, right place than the committment to winning.

I wouldn't tank either. The funny thing is...A lot of #1 QB's havent panned out over the years. Rarely is the #1 a shoe in for success. To be honest though...RG3 is way better than Luck. I'm not all that impressed by Luck. RG3 is more impressive than Newton and Luck combined.

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11-26-2012, 04:59 PM
  #1015
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I wouldn't go that far and praise Irsay, it was a lot more of right time, right place than the committment to winning.

I wouldn't tank either. The funny thing is...A lot of #1 QB's havent panned out over the years. Rarely is the #1 a shoe in for success. To be honest though...RG3 is way better than Luck. I'm not all that impressed by Luck. RG3 is more impressive than Newton and Luck combined.
Irsay fired Bill and Chris Polian, the VP and GM, the day after the season ended. He hired Grigson, and was intimately involved in the decision to fire Caldwell too.

How is that not to be commended?

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11-26-2012, 05:40 PM
  #1016
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Irsay fired Bill and Chris Polian, the VP and GM, the day after the season ended. He hired Grigson, and was intimately involved in the decision to fire Caldwell too.

How is that not to be commended?
Bill Polian's finger prints are still all over the majority of that roster. I don't think Bill deserved to be canned. There must be more than what the story is. Not sure if age played a factor or not. One bad season without the franchise QB seems all too easy to be the reason. There must have been a personal issue or something. Chris was just his daddy's sock puppet. I'm sure theres nothing there except one day Chris hoped to take over.

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11-26-2012, 06:00 PM
  #1017
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
I wasn't implying that Fitz is Kelly, or Miller for that matter. It's the larger point; the most popular guy in town is the backup.

This is not a good team with Fitz. It's a worse team with Jackson. That's my logic.

Put your best team on the field every week. Don't tank for draft picks. If you want to make the argument that Jackson is BETTER than Fitz, and that's why he should start, then ok. I'll listen to that. Probably won't agree, but it's reasonable.

Saying Jackson should start because 'it can't be any worse' is a non starter for me.
I like it. Accept nothing less than the best, and begin taking steps towards a better team. Quit wasting years of our lives with stopgaps.
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Originally Posted by HockeyH3aven View Post
Pretty much how I feel. I don't expect Jackson to light it up, and in fact he's probably worse. But you really don't know until you give the guy a shot. Sometimes it just takes the right system with the right personnel at the right time for guys to get it.
And what is "it", exactly - an end result of one, maybe two .500 seasons where the guy doesn't embarrass himself before Jackson proves exactly why he wasn't a starter in the first place. Why not save the aggravation and look for a legitimate longterm solution?

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11-26-2012, 06:08 PM
  #1018
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I like it. Accept nothing less than the best, and begin taking steps towards a better team. Quit wasting years of our lives with stopgaps.And what is "it", exactly - an end result of one, maybe two .500 seasons where the guy doesn't embarrass himself before Jackson proves exactly why he wasn't a starter in the first place. Why not save the aggravation and look for a legitimate longterm solution?
IT is he becomes a good starting QB in the league, good enough to take this team to the playoffs.

I'd much rather tank the year and take the best Qb available, but there's no harm is seeing what he can do. Like I said, he could be an upgrade to Fitz on this team in this scheme. Just because he might play slightly better doesn't mean you have to marry the guy.

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11-26-2012, 10:11 PM
  #1019
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IT is he becomes a good starting QB in the league, good enough to take this team to the playoffs.

I'd much rather tank the year and take the best Qb available, but there's no harm is seeing what he can do. Like I said, he could be an upgrade to Fitz on this team in this scheme. Just because he might play slightly better doesn't mean you have to marry the guy.
LBs first. Someone posted they wondered where the Bills would be if Newton fell to 3rd.... I wonder where they would be if Von Miller fell to them.

Fitzpatrick isn't a terrible or good QB..... very average..... but the LB core is Bad.... like Worst in the league bad. Right now the Bills have a DL, one or two corners and an all-star safety.... need replacements for LBs.

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11-26-2012, 11:27 PM
  #1020
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Starting Jackson for the rest of the season just opens up the opportunity for a controversy heading into next season. You get no benefit out of it. If he plays well the rest of this season, people are going to expect him to start next season. Not only that, but knowing the idiocy of this franchise, they'd probably pass over taking any kind of QB in the draft because of it. Then you're stuck with another garbage QB for next season. Let's not pretend he's all of a sudden going to be a good starting QB either, he's sucked his entire career. On the other hand if he plays badly, all we get is information we already know: he sucks.

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11-26-2012, 11:29 PM
  #1021
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Fitzpatrick isn't a terrible or good QB..... very average..... but the LB core is Bad.... like Worst in the league bad.
And this is right on the scouting staff. The Bills have a history of 1st round LB's like Conlan and Biscuit (trade), sure, but they used to get major contributors down the board too... guys like Lucius Sanford, Eugene Marve, Jim Haslett, Sam Cowart, Darryl Talley...

We've taken one linebacker above round 5 since we drafted Poszszluszszsny and that was Kelvin Sheppard, and it was obvious early on that he just doesn't have NFL speed.

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11-26-2012, 11:34 PM
  #1022
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Starting Jackson for the rest of the season just opens up the opportunity for a controversy heading into next season. You get no benefit out of it. If he plays well the rest of this season, people are going to expect him to start next season. Not only that, but knowing the idiocy of this franchise, they'd probably pass over taking any kind of QB in the draft because of it. Then you're stuck with another garbage QB for next season. Let's not pretend he's all of a sudden going to be a good starting QB either, he's sucked his entire career. On the other hand if he plays badly, all we get is information we already know: he sucks.
Completely disagree. We know Thigpen is trash, we know Fitz is not the man. Fitz makes too much to be somebody's backup so he's out, soon, just like Alex Smith in SF (hmmmmm). We traded for Travares and need to know if he's viable as next year's backup - not starter. We tried Vince sight unseen this year and how did that work out?

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11-27-2012, 08:26 AM
  #1023
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